Why China has so few friends?

Ray

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Toast of the world? You got be kidding. When was that exactly? All I can remember is a poor third world country that is just recently rising fra the ruins of past mistakes. You are a "toast" of the world when you are weak and do not pose any threats. maybe you get a pat on the back occasinally, so what? What is permanent interests if you are so weak that any one can exploit you. Of all countries, India and China should know better than that. A stabile growth and good trade relations with other countries is what is important for China. I will rather be an economic powerhouse than somebodys "toast". Leave that fancy title for somebody else.
I thought the phrase 'Toast of the world' would be adequate to explain rather than a thesis.

When was it?

When the flocked to infiltrate your economy and said it was sugar and spice and everything nice and forgot that it was just a few years ago they were claiming that China was a decadent dictatorship of the worst kind and called China the Bamboo Curtain!
 
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ice berg

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I thought the phrase 'Toast of the world' would be adequate to explain rather than a thesis.

When was it?

When the flocked to infiltrate your economy and forgot that it was just a few years ago they were claiming that China was a decadent dictatorship of the worst kind and called China the Bamboo Curtain!
My point still stands. Some times the relationships between nations is too difficult to translate by phrases or thesis. Let us celebrate what we have achieved rather than our occasinal differences. It is still business as usual out side this forum, no matter what some posters think. (Not directed at you)8)

When the flocked to infiltrate your economy and said it was sugar and spice and everything nice and forgot that it was just a few years ago they were claiming that China was a decadent dictatorship of the worst kind and called China the Bamboo Curtain!
It just shows their hypocrisy, dosnt it? And the FDI is still flowing into China. That has not changed.
 
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redragon

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BTW, the current economic crisis has presented China with an opportunity to right some of the wrongs. Bailing out the Eurozone will bring goodwill from China to the people of the west. But if you still try beating down your neighbours using threats then that would go nowhere in lifting this deceitful veil you have knowingly or unknowingly built around yourself.
Sorry to disappointed you, Hu, Jintao made it clear that EU can save itself, China is not doing anything more than symbolic investment through IMF. Looks like he does not give a damn about "right some of the wrongs", or from Chinese stand point, there is no wrongs at all. "Good will from the west"? another hopless naive guy
 

Ray

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My point still stands. Some times the relationships between nations is too difficult to translate by phrases or thesis. Let us celebrate what we have achieved rather than our occasinal differences. It is still business as usual out side this forum, no matter what some posters think. (Not directed at you)8)



It just shows their hypocrisy, dosnt it? And the FDI is still flowing into China. That has not changed.
And a lot is flowing out permanently too!
 

p2prada

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Sorry to disappointed you, Hu, Jintao made it clear that EU can save itself, China is not doing anything more than symbolic investment through IMF. Looks like he does not give a damn about "right some of the wrongs", or from Chinese stand point, there is no wrongs at all. "Good will from the west"? another hopless naive guy
Ah! Are you another of those LOL guys? Your "symbolic" investment through IMF is what matters. The bigger the symbol the greater the chances for you to make some of the things right. We will eventually see how right Mr. Jintao was.

Check out the difference between "Goodwill from the west" and "Goodwill from China to the west." You will notice there are differences. You do have Google translate, don't you?
 

Ray

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从西部的商誉! and 从中国的西部的商誉

Hope that is 'write' is right! :)
 

redragon

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Ah! Are you another of those LOL guys? Your "symbolic" investment through IMF is what matters. The bigger the symbol the greater the chances for you to make some of the things right. We will eventually see how right Mr. Jintao was.

Check out the difference between "Goodwill from the west" and "Goodwill from China to the west." You will notice there are differences. You do have Google translate, don't you?
Then why guys from west and you guys are keep saying China should save EU? Why asking more?
Zoellick: China Won't, And Shouldn't, Save Europe
World Bank President Zoellick: China Won't, And Shouldn't, Save Europe - China Real Time Report - WSJ
We will not render our good will just for "good will from west", please do use your google translation, er... it does translate English to Hindi, right?
 

redragon

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从西部的商誉! and 从中国的西部的商誉

Hope that is 'write' is right! :)
Stop making youself a laugh stock. :taunt:
 

Ray

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Stop making youself a laugh stock. :taunt:
Maybe since you are a clever Chinese, you could correct them!

But then, being negative with nothing positive to contribute is but your forte! :shocked:

One liner man! :pound:

Little Kharbuja!
 
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no smoking

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My dear Chinese friends. You guys are taking kickoks first post too literally. The "friends" part is quite rhetorical. It isn't like how friends works between two people. It's not like the US and UK will meet up in Brazil and smoke pot and smack all the b!tches at the strip joint.

Well, maybe you misunderstand the international politics and economic rules. There is no 'friends' on the country level. China doesn't have it, neither does india or any other country. We only have allies sharing some common interests in certain period.

China had "friends" and now most of those friends are enemies. The kind of friendship you have had with the west before 1989 and after 1989 is quite contrasting. For over 15 years you were the darling of the world and then suddenly became what no country should become(morally not financially) and have stayed that way. The way you deal with your neighbours(Philippines, Vietnam, S. Korea and maybe even Japan) isn't what is called acceptable by any standards. Even we have an enemy in Pakistan and we still deal diplomatically with them without all the browbeating. Even during the cold war when India was looked down on by the west, we at least had a friend in the USSR. Today you don't have a single great power by your side.
If you think USSR is your friend, then you should ask why? Why USSR choose you as friend? Why not USA in 1960s?
If you think China has lots of problems with its neighbours, then you should look at yours and ask yourselves: is there anyone I could call friend? Is there anyone not trying to bring china or US into your backyard?

BTW, the current economic crisis has presented China with an opportunity to right some of the wrongs. Bailing out the Eurozone will bring goodwill from China to the people of the west. But if you still try beating down your neighbours using threats then that would go nowhere in lifting this deceitful veil you have knowingly or unknowingly built around yourself.
Unfortunately, there is no one in China agree with you. Maybe India can bail out those trouble countries, then go ahead. I hope you can make a lot of 'new friends' by this. We don't have that spare money to do that. This is a business, please treat it as business. Remember: we still have a hundred millions people living under poverty, they need assistance more than those european.

By the way, I don't think you know the difference between "threat" and "disagree". Anyway, i know your logic: If China disgrees with you, that is a threat; If China totally accept your terms, that is 'friendly' action.
 

Ray

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Well, maybe you misunderstand the international politics and economic rules. There is no 'friends' on the country level. China doesn't have it, neither does india or any other country. We only have allies sharing some common interests in certain period.
US and UK has it. They are friends forever.

Others have common interests, but that too does not last forever.



If you think USSR is your friend, then you should ask why? Why USSR choose you as friend? Why not USA in 1960s?
If you think China has lots of problems with its neighbours, then you should look at yours and ask yourselves: is there anyone I could call friend? Is there anyone not trying to bring china or US into your backyard?
You have yourself answered why USSR chose us as friend and not China or the US in your above part of the post.

You have also answered in the above part of your post as to why none could be friends. So the question on who is India's friend is merely rhetoric!

BTW no one wants China in their backyard. Can't say about whether countries want the US into their backyard. The US seems to have signed some sort of Defence Agreements with those countries who are opposing China in SE Asia.
 

ice berg

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US and UK has it. They are friends forever.

Forever? You have a crystal ball lying somewhere? United Stated emerged from the ruins of WW2 as the new power. The British was more or less broken by that war. It was a succession and from that an alliance. British didnt do that out of "friendship". They just didnt have a choice.

BTW no one wants China in their backyard. Can't say about whether countries want the US into their backyard. The US seems to have signed some sort of Defence Agreements with those countries who are opposing China in SE Asia.
What does "want" got anything to do with it? You cant choose your neighbours. Pakistan isnt going away just because India wishes it so, right? Wether other countries like it or not, China is where it is. Live with it.
And what kind Defence Agreements you are talking about? Who are those countries opposing China in SE Asia? What did they do exactly? As in actions, not words. Be spesific. I think you are reading too much into it. There is no united front in SE Asia. You dont need to agree with your neighbours in everything. That dont counts as opposing.
 

Ray

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What does "want" got anything to do with it? You cant choose your neighbours. Pakistan isnt going away just because India wishes it so, right? Wether other countries like it or not, China is where it is. Live with it.
And what kind Defence Agreements you are talking about? Who are those countries opposing China in SE Asia? What did they do exactly? As in actions, not words. Be spesific. I think you are reading too much into it. There is no united front in SE Asia. You dont need to agree with your neighbours in everything. That dont counts as opposing.
You are right. Pakistan won't go away because India wants it to.

They will go away since they want it to happen. See Pakistan. The Army does not trust the President and the President does not trust the Army and the Ambassador to the US of Pakistan is a unguided missile!!

What defence agreements?

Check Google if that is allowed in China these days!

If not let me know. I will guide you to the threads that have the details.
 

Bhadra

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What does "want" got anything to do with it? You cant choose your neighbours. Pakistan isnt going away just because India wishes it so, right? Wether other countries like it or not, China is where it is. Live with it.
And what kind Defence Agreements you are talking about? Who are those countries opposing China in SE Asia? What did they do exactly? As in actions, not words. Be spesific. I think you are reading too much into it. There is no united front in SE Asia. You dont need to agree with your neighbours in everything. That dont counts as opposing.
Nepal and Bhutan and treaty bound to fight China if you do any mischief there. Similarly, other countries in South Asia and ASEAN look forward to Indian support if you trouble them.

These neighbours of India and China play their acts to draw maxi,um benefits and security. In real politic of International relations this is common. However, every country considers China to be uncivilised and a threat. No one considers India to be trigger happy irresponsible country as is the view about China.
 

Ray

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Competition deepens in the South China Sea

UPDATE : 3 November 2011

Hanoi - In the run-up to this year's East Asia Summit (EAS), the Philippines and Vietnam have sent a preemptive joint message: they are not willing to yield to rising Chinese pressure on unresolved South China Sea territorial issues.

By Roberto Tofani


The new loose alliance between the two Association of Southeast Asia Nations (ASEAN) members aims to enhance their strategic cooperation and has effectively invited other regional powers to help counterbalance China's claims in the brewing multilateral dispute.

The EAS will take place in mid-November in Bali, Indonesia, and for the first time will also include the United States and Russia. South China Sea tensions are expected to feature prominently at


the multilateral meeting, which will see several world leaders, including United States President Barack Obama, in attendance.

In recent months, the Philippines and Vietnam have taken a similar two-way diplomatic approach by strengthening relations with China's traditional regional competitors, including Japan and India, while at the same time maintaining dialogue and growing commercial ties with Beijing.

At the same time, the ASEAN neighbors have strengthened their bilateral security ties in an apparent bid to counterbalance China's rising naval power. On October 27, Philippine President Benigno Aquino signed several maritime pacts with his Vietnamese counterpart Truong Tan Sang, including naval agreements to share information, respond to natural disasters, prevent smuggling and piracy, and protect marine resources in the South China Sea.

Sovereignty over areas of the South China Sea is contested by China, the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei. In the past six months, tensions have spiked through incidents at sea while at the same time claimants have released a series of joint statements aimed at finding a common and peaceful solution to their overlapping territorial claims. Many areas of the South China Sea are believed to be rich in fossil fuels and are important to regional navigation and trade.

By joining forces, the Philippines and Vietnam aim to enhance their negotiating leverage vis-a-vis China. Beijing has repeatedly stated its preference to pursue bilateral agreements with smaller claimant countries while the latter have pushed for a binding agreement through multilateral channels led by the 10-member ASEAN.

During the 18th ASEAN Regional Forum held in July, Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi and his ASEAN counterparts signed a document setting out agreed measures to make the 2002 Declaration of Conduct (DOC) of Parties in the South China Sea more binding. The new eight-point document laid out guidelines for the implementation and agreement by consensus of future joint cooperation activities that lead to the "eventual realization" of a formal code of conduct in the maritime area.

The agreement received mixed reviews. Philippine officials said that the new DOC guidelines won't do enough to alleviate tensions. Vietnamese officials highlighted their coordination with the meeting's host, Indonesia, and spoke about the "success" of the multilateral forum.

Tong Xiaoling, China's ambassador to ASEAN, asserted that the grouping is not a party to the territorial conflict "so a document reached by the two sides cannot solve the disputes". He stressed that the issue could be resolved only through a "bilateral framework".

Strategic hedging

Amid these divergent views, Philippine President Aquino traveled to Beijing in early September for a meeting with his counterpart Hu Jintao. The five-day visit was dogged by South China Sea tensions, but the two leaders reiterated their commitment "to addressing the disputes through peaceful dialogue, to maintain continued regional peace, security, stability and an environment conducive to economic progress".

Later that same month, during a September 27 meeting in Tokyo, Aquino demonstrated lack of faith in that cooperative rhetoric by boosting naval ties with Japan - also in the name of upholding peace and stability in the South China Sea. The day after the announcement, Japan and ASEAN defense officials held a high-profile meeting on South China Sea cooperation and consultation. Relations between Japan and ASEAN have "matured from dialogue to one where Japan plays a more specific cooperative role", said Kimito Nakae, Japan's vice minister of defense, after the meeting.

Nakae was also cited in press reports saying that tensions over oil exploration and military outposts in the South China Sea would require more cooperation from the US and India to manage. On that cue, Vietnamese President Sang met Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh met on October 12 and signed an oil and gas exploration agreement between India's ONGC Videsh and PetroVietnam in a South China Sea area claimed by Hanoi but contested by China.

Predictably, the agreement was not welcomed in Beijing. "India's energy strategy is slipping into an extremely dangerous whirlpool," said a front-page commentary in the state-owned newspaper China Energy News, published by the Communist Party's mouthpiece People's Daily, in response to the joint exploration announcement.

The energy deal was concluded one day after Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV), general secretary Nguyen Phu Trong arrived in Beijing for bilateral discussions. Trong concluded a bilateral agreement seeking to contain South China Sea-related disputes. At the same time, at the end of October, Vietnamese Defense Minister Gen Phung Quang Thanh and his Japanese counterpart Yasuo Ichikawa signed a new memorandum enhancing bilateral defense cooperation.

While Manila's hardening policy towards China is backed by its historical alliance with the US, Hanoi has been somewhat more ambiguous in its position. On one hand, Vietnam's foreign policy is based on the so-called "friends to all" principle; on the other, the ambiguity reflects internal divisions inside the ruling CPV and government, according to a well-placed CPV source who spoke with Asia Times Online on condition of anonymity.

While CPV chief Trong is viewed as pro-Chinese, Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung is thought to be more pro-West in outlook and keen to improve relations and strategic cooperation with the US. Sang is seen to hold the balance of power and recent moves indicate that he too is leaning towards the West, the CPV source added.

The US is responding - at least rhetorically - to those strategic calls. During his first tour in Asia, newly appointed US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta reaffirmed the US's strategic role in the region at an annual meeting of ASEAN defense ministers held in late October. "I told them that I would do everything possible ... to develop a relationship in which the security of this region will be strengthened for the future," Panetta said.

His statement echoed a policy concept developed by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton calling for more US strategic involvement outlined in a recent essay published in Foreign Policy. In that report, Clinton wrote, "The United States has moved to fully engage the region's multilateral institutions, such as the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) and the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC)." Similar statements promoting more multilateralism to solve the dispute are expected during Obama's visit to the EAS on November 19.

The Philippines and Vietnam are in their own ways promoting more US and regional power involvement in the South China Sea dispute. They will need to tread carefully to avoid deepening the dispute: China is now able to exercise influence, including through trade and investment, over the Asia-Pacific region in ways that an economically weakened US can no longer match.

The bilateral agreement between the Philippines and Vietnam, and Japan's and India's new strategic and commercial commitments to the South China Sea will likely embolden ASEAN country claimants. But any indication that the US is orchestrating intra-ASEAN bilateral alliances and more Japanese and Indian involvement specifically to contain China's power risks a backlash to which Washington will be expected by its ASEAN allies to respond in kind.
Thai-ASEAN News Network
 

p2prada

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Well, maybe you misunderstand the international politics and economic rules. There is no 'friends' on the country level. China doesn't have it, neither does india or any other country. We only have allies sharing some common interests in certain period.
You no longer have such allies sharing such common interests except for India at the WTO.

If you think USSR is your friend, then you should ask why? Why USSR choose you as friend? Why not USA in 1960s?
If you think China has lots of problems with its neighbours, then you should look at yours and ask yourselves: is there anyone I could call friend? Is there anyone not trying to bring china or US into your backyard?
All those questions have been asked and answered many times, in this forum as well as outside. Read about NAM. You will get an idea about how things work.

Unfortunately, there is no one in China agree with you. Maybe India can bail out those trouble countries, then go ahead. I hope you can make a lot of 'new friends' by this. We don't have that spare money to do that. This is a business, please treat it as business. Remember: we still have a hundred millions people living under poverty, they need assistance more than those european.
Imagine what will happen if Eurozone suddenly keels over. Japan's primary import partner is China. Japan's second largest export partner is Eurozone. Do you understand where I am getting at.

Any Eurozone impact on India is very less. For China it will be severe. If you failed to notice the small economic crisis in 2008 shaved 6% off of your growth while it was less than 2% for India. What would happen if Greece, Italy and Spain declare bankruptcy?

India doesn't have the kind of funds to bail them out.

By the way, I don't think you know the difference between "threat" and "disagree". Anyway, i know your logic: If China disgrees with you, that is a threat; If China totally accept your terms, that is 'friendly' action.
India disagrees with the US on pretty much every parameter on geopolitics. The only place we share mutual understanding is to build a partnership to contain China. In fact India and China have a lot of mutual interests as compared to anything between India and the US especially in economics.

There is a vast difference between China's handling of disagreement and India's or most other countries' handle on disagreements. Most countries don't threaten with "dire" consequences like shooting down ships and aircraft or even threatening war. We even found PLA ships operating in the Andaman islands recently, dressed as fishing trawlers.
 

ice berg

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You are right. Pakistan won't go away because India wants it to.

They will go away since they want it to happen. See Pakistan. The Army does not trust the President and the President does not trust the Army and the Ambassador to the US of Pakistan is a unguided missile!!

What defence agreements?

Check Google if that is allowed in China these days!

If not let me know. I will guide you to the threads that have the details.
That is funny. What does Google got to do with it? You make a statement. You support it with a source. It is not up to readers to do that job for you. And if we agree that nobody can choose their neighbours, then I sure dont know what you imply by this:
"BTW no one wants China in their backyard. Can't say about whether countries want the US into their backyard. "
 

SHASH2K2

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recent provocative gesture from chinese military and political system could be a ploy to divert people attention from its economic woes. there are various reports about economy slowing down . Only thing that have people under control is a hope for better life and if thats failing ccp is trying to use fear tactics to keep them under check. I wonder if BHarat Verma was wrong and china attacks us even earlier . IN 2012 ?
 

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