Why are so many Indians ignorant about the demographics of J&K?

[PredictablyMalicious]

I distinctly remember meeting a Jamwal from HP. Probably migrations.

From my interactions Dogra Rajputs have different surnames from other Rajputs.

Whereas Himachali Punjabi and Jammu Brahmins have similar surnames and practices. You must be a Sharma ?


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Yea actual dogra Brahmin last names aren't SHARMA, it is just an adopted last name by many Brahmins. Most dogra Brahmins don't have the last name SHARMA. You won't be able to tell they're Brahmin by their last names.

 

[Virendra]

And it's true J&K has very little poverty, however there are some illegal bangladeshis here who have set up slums and started begging. Even then, begging in J&K is very low compared to other states

Holy cow .. they've reached till J & K? :shocked:
We might as well push them across Karakoram to the other side

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

I think those folks getting admitted to the Army are invariably Dogra Rajputs. Iirc dogris are not enlisted. Not sure about Dogra Brahmins.

And Dogra Rajputs are not as stocky or tall as say Punjabis. I think there was some height relaxation issue here.

Maybe @Ray sir can chime in here

And Dogra Rajputs usually refer to themselves as dogras, ie. it is implied that their origin is Rajput unless specified, like in your case Dogra brahmin ? Perhaps because rajputs outnumber brahmins and/or rajputs have held sway ?


Dont take this the wrong way.


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Vijay Kumar is obviously not a dogra rajput. Look at his last name. Only low castes keep that last name. Rajputs never have kumar as their last name. And as for Dogra physical attributes, well I don't know who you have met, J&K has one of the highest average height in India, along with Punjab. THere is negligible difference. And even among Punjabis, most are short, only Jatts may be tall.
ANd it's not true that Dogras are rajputs, maybe it's the stereotype but Dogra brahmins are a considerable number among the Dogra population.

Not all dogris are dogras.
Banias, Mahajans, Khatris etc dont come under dogras but are dogris.

Similarly Dogras from HP speak speak Kangri etc. ie they are not Dogris.

For eg all marathas are marathi but not all marathis are maratha.

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Why congrats ? It is genetics. I have consanguineous family relations who look like whites, complete with blonde hair et al and then are those those who are probably darker than you.

I have seen the same in the family of all Dogras and Dogris I know.

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@Tronic @Blackwater @hit&run may know better. I dont live in Punjab.

Whenever I have visited Jammu or Punjab I have not been treated badly but neither like a celebrity. Ymmv.
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Kashmiri girls are more attractive than dogri girls. This is my opinion and i am willing to wager most Indians would not disagree with me.
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Could be true.
But my opinion stands that Kashmiri girls are more attractive, and I am not a sucker for white skin either.
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Why should I try to convince a kashmiri ? And how will it matter ?

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Most of the Mahajans and khatris in Jammu are of Punjabi stock, so yes they are not dogras. Not everyone in Jammu is a dogra. They don't speak much dogri either actually, they stick with punjabi whereas dogra sikhs do speak dogri.
Funny how you assume I am dark. Punjabis mistake me and other dogras for non Indian all the time so what does that tell you? And there are LOTS of coloured eyes people in Jammu. Even in my family, my father has grey eyes. I have never seen light skinned people in Punjab although I'm sure they exist.
Regarding the bolded part, that is your personal preference. However your tone suggests you have something to prove. I'm not sure why. Even if kashmiri girls are prettier than dogra girls, why would I care? lol. when did I take a stand on this "issue"? There are many sexy kashmiri girls in Jammu and most of them have dogra boyfriends

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

Holy cow .. they've reached till J & K? :shocked:
We might as well push them across Karakoram to the other side

Well that is what most people say. THey might be biharis or from other parts of India I'm not sure but they are definitely not from the state.

 

[Tronic]

@Tronic @Blackwater @hit&run may know better. I dont live in Punjab.

The funny thing is that @atheisthindu keeps blaming Punjabis for being obsessed with skin colour, yet, it's only him whose told us countless times already how "fair" and "non-Indian" he looks, and how "dark" Punjabis are compared to him.

As for Punjab, I guess its true that Punjabis like their girls tall, fair and with sharp features, while the expectations from men are to be big, tall and strong. Skin colour doesn't matter for guys.

Punjabi logic: a big, tall and built guy = well off, well to do family.. short and skinny guy = poor, less powerful family.. Skin colour bias is only reserved for the girls.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

The funny thing is that @atheisthindu keeps blaming Punjabis for being obsessed with skin colour, yet, it's only him whose told us countless times already how "fair" and "non-Indian" he looks, and how "dark" Punjabis are compared to him.

As for Punjab, I guess its true that Punjabis like their girls tall, fair and with sharp features, while the expectations from men are to be big, tall and strong. Skin colour doesn't matter for guys.

Punjabi logic: a big, tall and built guy = well off, well to do family.. short and skinny guy = poor, less powerful family.. Skin colour bias is only reserved for the girls.

You are mistaken. Dogras are very relaxed about skin colour. I already said dogras can be light or dark. It is not considered a big deal. However I was pointing out how Singh assumes dogras are dark and short compared to punjabis. In other words, trying to demean us. I have no idea how he can reach that conclusion.
I know very well the punjabi "logic". I have relatives in Punjab. It is no secret what you guys think about others such as Biharis or South Indians or even Brahmins.
Anyways this discussion is pointless. I don't care what some punjabi thinks. We Dogras never compared ourselves to punjabis. Besides superficial similarities our mentalities are totally different.

 

[Tronic]

You are mistaken. Dogras are very relaxed about skin colour. I already said dogras can be light or dark. It is not considered a big deal. However I was pointing out how Singh assumes dogras are dark and short compared to punjabis. In other words, trying to demean us. I have no idea how he can reach that conclusion.
I know very well the punjabi "logic". I have relatives in Punjab. It is no secret what you guys think about others such as Biharis or South Indians or even Brahmins.
Anyways this discussion is pointless. I don't care what some punjabi thinks. We Dogras never compared ourselves to punjabis. Besides superficial similarities our mentalities are totally different.

See, the mere fact you felt that being called "dark and short" was demeaning also reflects your own mindset, so please don't finger point against Punjabis if you yourself are thinking along the same lines. That's the only point I was trying to make..

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

May be @atheisthindu, you should name yourself as atheistdograhindu!!

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

See, the mere fact you felt that being called "dark and short" was demeaning also reflects your own mindset, so please don't finger point against Punjabis if you yourself are thinking along the same lines. That's the only point I was trying to make..

Well dark is fine. Idgaf but dogras are not stocky as implied by Singh. Not in the Indian context by any means. If we are stocky so are u punjabis

 

[Known_Unknown]

I think all Indians regardless of state (not sure abt the NE though ) are obsessed with skin colour. No one specifically wants to fall in love or marry a "dark" girl, though I'm not sure if girls also look for "fair" guys.

This thread provided some good education though on ethnic and linguistic differences in the far north. I thought everyone from Delhi and up was a "Punjabi", just like some naarth Indians used to think everyone from Karnataka down was a "Madrasi"

 

[pmaitra]

I think all Indians regardless of state (not sure abt the NE though ) are obsessed with skin colour. No one specifically wants to fall in love or marry a "dark" girl, though I'm not sure if girls also look for "fair" guys.

This thread provided some good education though on ethnic and linguistic differences in the far north. I thought everyone from Delhi and up was a "Punjabi", just like some naarth Indians used to think everyone from Karnataka down was a "Madrasi"

That is because parts of Karnataka were indeed part of the Madras Presidency, or put it in a different way, there were Kannada speaking people in the Madras Presidency. Madras Presidency was a creation of the British, so this is hardly a fault of North Indians.

Linguistic Map of the Madras Presidency

Source: Madras Presidency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, this is interesting:

The Madras Presidency (Tamil: சென்னை மாகாணம், Telugu: చెన్నపురి సంస్థానము, Malayalam: മദ്രാസ് പ്രസിഡന്-സി, Oriya: ମଦ୍ରାସ୍ ପ୍ରେସୋଦେନ୍ଚ୍ଯ) was a province of British India comprising most of the present day Tamil Nadu along with a few districts and taluks of Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Orissa. A few princely states, notably Ramnad and Pudukkottai also merged into the Presidency at some or the other time. The Presidency lasted till 1950, when it became the Madras State after India became a Republic. In 1953 Telugu speaking regions of the state split to form Andhra state. Subsequently in 1959, Kannada and Malayalam speaking areas were merged with Mysore and Travancore.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Madras_Presidency

 

[Known_Unknown]

That is because parts of Karnataka were indeed part of the Madras Presidency, or put it in a different way, there were Kannada speaking people in the Madras Presidency. Madras Presidency was a creation of the British, so this is hardly a fault of North Indians.

Linguistic Map of the Madras Presidency

Source: Madras Presidency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you think when referring to a South Indian person as a "Madrasi", they had the Madras Presidency at the back of their mind?

It was because they clubbed multiple ethnic/linguistic groups under one banner either due to ignorance, carelessness or a superiority complex.

I don't remember anyone referring to Gujaratis or Marathis as "Bombayites" just because Gujarat and Maharashtra were both part of the Bombay Presidency.

 

[Razor]

Educative thread, @atheisthindu

That is because parts of Karnataka were indeed part of the Madras Presidency, or put it in a different way, there were Kannada speaking people in the Madras Presidency. Madras Presidency was a creation of the British, so this is hardly a fault of North Indians.

Linguistic Map of the Madras Presidency

Source: Madras Presidency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, this is interesting:


Source: Divisions of Madras Presidency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[OT] We are no more under British rule and I believe "North Indians" can learn new demonyms, can't they [/OT]

 

[pmaitra]

And you think when referring to a South Indian person as a "Madrasi", they had the Madras Presidency at the back of their mind?

It was because they clubbed multiple ethnic/linguistic groups under one banner either due to ignorance, carelessness or a superiority complex.

I don't remember anyone referring to Gujaratis or Marathis as "Bombayites" just because Gujarat and Maharashtra were both part of the Bombay Presidency.

Of course not, many people don't know that Madras Presidency was a huge territory. Many people also don't know this:

The Madras Regiment is the oldest regiment in the Indian army formed in the 1750s.

Source: The Madras Regiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The thing is, in those days, if a person from Madras Presidency visited Delhi, he would probably say he was "from Madras Presidency," and hence, the general term "Madrasi" was used. The usage of the term carried on, despite newer states being created. Now that states were created, there is more national awareness (India is not a nation, mind you; it is a multi-national country), so some people take offense when the term "Madrasi" is used, because, it comes across as refusing to acknowledge or ignoring the new national identity of the states.

I have a friend from Karnataka. When we first met, the conversation went something like this:

• Me: So where are you from?
• Friend: Mangalore.
• Me: Where is that? Is it close to Bangalore?
• Friend: Yes.
• Me: Ok, so is that in Karnataka?
• Friend: I am from a place called Mangalore, and I am a Mangalorean.
• Me: Ok, sure, but which state are you from?
• Friend: Mangalore is in Karnataka, but we do not yet have a state, . . . (the rest of the response included the term "Tulu Nadu")
• Me:

Later on, I learnt that Mangaloreans get offended even if mentioned they are from Karnataka. Of course, I hardly meant any offense when I said what I did.

 

[pmaitra]

Educative thread, @atheisthindu




[OT] We are no more under British rule and I believe "North Indians" can learn new demonyms, can't they [/OT]

Madras Presidency existed even after British Rule ended.

Of course, we should always study about other states, and we do in schools, but that was not the point of my post. My point was that the mere usage of the term "Madrasi" is not necessarily an offense, rather lack of knowledge.

 

[Ray]

@Singh,

I am not sure about whether there is height relaxation of Dogra.

However, a Dogra who is Rajuput, makes it a point to say Dogra Rajput.

Other Dogra merely say Dogra.

 

[Ray]

Holy cow .. they've reached till J & K? :shocked:
We might as well push them across Karakoram to the other side

Actually, there are whole lot of them in Kashmir.

I met one Bnagladeshi woman in Lolab Valley, who insisted that she was a Hindu Bengali, who converted because of marriage.

Her accent gave away that she was from Bangladesh.

And guess who was her husband?

A notorious terrorists who had fled to Pakistan!

Bengal brides for Kashmir poor - Kashmir Dispatch
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...spTgfHG_Pu9i6InHw&sig2=zw0ZzkpChal28RQUaOkuBA

 

[Bhadra]

Holy cow .. they've reached till J & K? :shocked:
We might as well push them across Karakoram to the other side

Illegal Bangladeshi Migrants in the valley are on following counts:

Bought wives
Hardcore trained Maulavies
Construction workers
Foreign (read Pakistani )terrorists in HM and Let or other terrorist organizations.

 

[Singh]

@atheisthindu @Tronic @Ray

Height: Minimum height of candidates falling in the categories of Garhwalis, Kumaonis, Gorkhas, Dogras, Marathas and candidates belonging to the States of Sikkim, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh, Manipur, Tripura, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Assam, Himachal Pradesh, Kashmir and Leh & Ladakh regions of J&K will be 165 cms for male and 155 cms for females.
The minimum height for all candidates belonging to Scheduled Tribes will be 162.5 cms for males and 150 cms for females.

Chest: The minimum chest of male candidates falling in the categorist of Garhwalis, Kumaonis, Gorkhas, Dogras, Marathas and candidates belonging to the States of Sikkim, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh, Manipur, Tripura, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Assam, Himachal Pradesh, Kashmir and Leh & Ladakh regions of J&K will be 78 cms (minimum 5 cms expansion).
http://www.crpfrecruitment.org/height_chest.html

This is from crpf


WHAT IS DOGRA CERTIFICATE?:
As per senior retired army officer Lt Gen J S Jamwal, the history of Dogra certificate dates back to British Raj. "As regards Dogra certificate controversy, an issue was made out of non-issue because Dogra certificate does not mean anything. It only means to get relaxation in chest and height. That was simply a proof of being Dogras, who would constitute the people from entire Jammu region irrespective of their religion. Why Dogras would get this relaxation – has the simple answer. Dogras, the inhabitants of Duggar or Dwigar belt, as compared to other well-built martial races viz., Pathans, people from Punjab and other regions of India were shorter in height. Because of this they would suffer in enrolment despite being categorized as martial race," Lt Gen Jamwal explains.
According to him, this concession against the certificate was available for all ranks in the army and is still in vogue for laid down communities including Dogras.

http://www.kashmirawareness.org/Art...e-row-oscillating-between-ignorance-confusion

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[Singh]

Vijay Kumar is obviously not a dogra rajput. Look at his last name. Only low castes keep that last name. Rajputs never have kumar as their last name. And as for Dogra physical attributes, well I don't know who you have met, J&K has one of the highest average height in India, along with Punjab. THere is negligible difference. And even among Punjabis, most are short, only Jatts may be tall.
ANd it's not true that Dogras are rajputs, maybe it's the stereotype but Dogra brahmins are a considerable number among the Dogra population.

I have posted re:height before this post.

Most of the Mahajans and khatris in Jammu are of Punjabi stock, so yes they are not dogras. Not everyone in Jammu is a dogra. They don't speak much dogri either actually, they stick with punjabi whereas dogra sikhs do speak dogri.

I have met non-Rajputs and "Brahmins" who are quite militant about their "duggarness" and their advocacy of a "duggardesh"

Funny how you assume I am dark.

I assumed you were as fair skinned as you claim, and then I have relatives darker and fairer than you.

Problem with Indian Punjab has been due to partition and post independence there has been lot of mogrations.

Punjabis mistake me and other dogras for non Indian all the time so what does that tell you? And there are LOTS of coloured eyes people in Jammu. Even in my family, my father has grey eyes. I have never seen light skinned people in Punjab although I'm sure they exist.

I am sure you have had different experiences than me, hence our difference in perception.

Regarding the bolded part, that is your personal preference. However your tone suggests you have something to prove. I'm not sure why. Even if kashmiri girls are prettier than dogra girls, why would I care? lol. when did I take a stand on this "issue"? There are many sexy kashmiri girls in Jammu and most of them have dogra boyfriends

Kashmiri girls are prettier than Jammu girls, and Punjabi girls too. If that makes you happy.


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