Why are so many Indians ignorant about the demographics of J&K?

[Ankit Purohit]

Dogra Regiment OF Indian Army

Jai Hind

Jai Mata Di

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

I didn't know we were discussing this ?

It was not an empire. It was bought from the British, after Gulab Singh's treachery. At best it can be called a kingdom, because Gulab Singh had pledged allegiance and accepted the suzerainty of the British.

"In consideration of the transfer made to him and his heirs by the provisions
of the foregoing articles, Maharaja Gulab Singh will pay to the British government the sum
of seventy-five lacs (seven and half millions) of rupees (Nanakshahi), fifty lacs to be paid on
ratification of this Treaty, and twenty-five lacs on or before the 1st of October of the
current year, AD 1846. "

" The limits of the territories of Maharaja Gulab Singh shall not be, at any
time, changed without concurrence of the British government."

"Maharaja Gulab Singh acknowledges the supremacy of the British
government, and will, in token of such supremacy, present annually to the British
government one horse, twelve perfect shawl goats of approved breed (six male and six
female), and three pairs of Kashmir shawls.*"

From Treaty of Amritsar
www.kashmirnetwork.com/justju/stuff/treaty.pdf


Gulab Singh was the leader of the "Khalsa Raj" and was highly popular with the Sikh soldiers, and his brothers held high offices including those of the Prime Minister of the "Khalsa Raj" As such it was not possible for them to be not Sikhs. And they were cunning

And further Gulab Singh, had been serving as a soldier in the Sikh Army since his teens.

It is entirely possible that they re-converted back. It wasn't advantageous for them anyways to remain Sikh, because the Sikh power by then had declined, they derived their power from Dogra Rajputs who were largely Hindus, and because the Sikhs treated them as traitors.

===


This is what people say if their bs is called out.



Dogris are those who speak Dogri. Dogras are those who are well Dogras. If I am mistaken do let me know.





I said Dogris are only racists towards KP refugees followed by a wink.
I never contested your inference.




Dude this is the 4th time you are repeating this.
I am very racist, happy ?
I am most likely a couple of shade lighter than you and I love Naomi Campbell.
I call bs when I see it.
I was never rejected by a dogra girl, kashmiri girls are prettier.
I don't hang out with shawl-walas. (sarcastic comment)
My first and oldest friend is from Jammu.
I have a bias for facts.

Whatever. The bolded statement makes no sense btw. All Dogras speak dogri as their first language. What is the point of calling someone a dogri and not a dogra (the proper name)?
ALthough I doubt you are lighter than me, if you are, congratulations on your uber light skin. I'm sure this has already made you a celebrity in Punjab, where people are ever obsessed with skin colour! I'm glad you find kashmiri girls more attractive Kashmiris call all mainland dark Indians as "Punjabi" btw in case you didn't know. Have fun convinving a kashmiri that you are light skin

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

Btw @Singh I don't have anything against Punjabis or Sikhs. And this thread was not really meant for these kinds of historical discussions. I was just trying to make people aware about the demographics of my state and about Dogras. If you think Dogras are backstabbers, go say that to thousands of dogra soldiers serving for the Indian Army. Or you can come to Jammu and see how much we hate traitors and separatists.

 

[Singh]

Whatever. The bolded statement makes no sense btw. All Dogras speak dogri as their first language. What is the point of calling someone a dogri and not a dogra (the proper name)?

Not all dogris are dogras.
Banias, Mahajans, Khatris etc dont come under dogras but are dogris.

Similarly Dogras from HP speak speak Kangri etc. ie they are not Dogris.

For eg all marathas are marathi but not all marathis are maratha.

===

ALthough I doubt you are lighter than me, if you are, congratulations on your uber light skin.

Why congrats ? It is genetics. I have consanguineous family relations who look like whites, complete with blonde hair et al and then are those those who are probably darker than you.

I have seen the same in the family of all Dogras and Dogris I know.

===

I'm sure this has already made you a celebrity in Punjab, where people are ever obsessed with skin colour!

@Tronic @Blackwater @hit&run may know better. I dont live in Punjab.

Whenever I have visited Jammu or Punjab I have not been treated badly but neither like a celebrity. Ymmv.
===

I'm glad you find kashmiri girls more attractive

Kashmiri girls are more attractive than dogri girls. This is my opinion and i am willing to wager most Indians would not disagree with me.
===

kashmiris call all mainland dark Indians as "Punjabi" btw in case you didn't know.

Could be true.
But my opinion stands that Kashmiri girls are more attractive, and I am not a sucker for white skin either.
====

Have fun convinving a kashmiri that you are light skin

Why should I try to convince a kashmiri ? And how will it matter ?

===




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[Virendra]

Btw @Singh I don't have anything against Punjabis or Sikhs. And this thread was not really meant for these kinds of historical discussions. I was just trying to make people aware about the demographics of my state and about Dogras. If you think Dogras are backstabbers, go say that to thousands of dogra soldiers serving for the Indian Army. Or you can come to Jammu and see how much we hate traitors and separatists.

Dogras or any other Indian community enmasse is not traitor.
There have been traitors and heroes amid each of these communities.
Sikha lost to British and any contemporary British allies or allies immediately thereafter in north India, would obviously tend to be targets of Sikhs criticism when historic anlaysis takes places.
That is all there is to it IMO and it is natural, lest we try to find right and wrong in it .. in vain.

By the way earlier I didn't mean to say exactly 'Kashmiri' rajput per say. I was trying to convey that Zorawar was born in the area we generally know as Kashmir today.
Consider that as a typo. So he was a Dogra then? Actually I still don't know if there are more than one clans of Rajputs in Jammu area(correcting this time )
Because I've heard of Jasrotias as well. So are they a branch/offshoot of Dogras or they're a different clan ? Jasrotias too have served well in the Indian Army.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Singh]

Btw @Singh I don't have anything against Punjabis or Sikhs. And this thread was not really meant for these kinds of historical discussions. I was just trying to make people aware about the demographics of my state and about Dogras. If you think Dogras are backstabbers, go say that to thousands of dogra soldiers serving for the Indian Army. Or you can come to Jammu and see how much we hate traitors and separatists.

I never said Dogras are backstabbers but Gulab Singh was. And that is a fact.



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[LurkerBaba]

Thread closed.

 

[Singh]

Dogras or any other Indian community enmasse is not traitor.
There have been traitors and heroes amid each of these communities.
Sikha lost to British and any contemporary British allies or allies immediately thereafter in north India, would obviously tend to be targets of Sikhs criticism when historic anlaysis takes places.
That is all there is to it IMO and it is natural, lest we try to find right and wrong in it .. in vain.

By the way earlier I didn't mean to say exactly 'Kashmiri' rajput per say. I was trying to convey that Zorawar was born in the area we generally know as Kashmir today.
Consider that as a typo. So he was a Dogra then? Actually I still don't know if there are more than one clans of Rajputs in Jammu area(correcting this time )
Because I've hread of Jasrotias as well. So are they a branch/offshoot of Dogras or they're a different clan ? Jasrotias too have served well in the Indian Army.

Regards,
Virendra

Zorawar Singh was a Dogra.

Dogra usually refers to Rajputs (and/or brahmins)

Dogras are spread over HP, J&K, and also in Punjab.

Kashmir Valley is half the size of Jammu and 1/4 the size of Ladakh.

Kashmiri culture and language is very different from Jammu region. For sake of ease of understanding Dogri is virtually Punjabi, and dogra culture similar to Punjabi.




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[Singh]

Thread closed.

Why close ? Let the initial misunderstanding be cleared and then we can go ahead.


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[LurkerBaba]

Why close ? Let the initial misunderstanding be cleared and then we can go ahead.


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I think it's going to get worse...

Re-opened

 

[agentperry]

99% of the indians doesnt know about a fact that in india dual citizenship only runs in J&K. it has separate constitution and the residuary power ie concurrent list lies with the state govt. moreover it can not be altered like uttar pradesh and uttrakhand because article 3 is invalid there.

if these basic constitutional things are not known to people then its foolish to expect anything much greater than that.

( constitution is taught to class 8-9-10 class kids)

 

[Singh]

99% of the indians doesnt know about a fact that in india dual citizenship only runs in J&K. it has separate constitution and the residuary power ie concurrent list lies with the state govt. moreover it can not be altered like uttar pradesh and uttrakhand because article 3 is invalid there.

if these basic constitutional things are not known to people then its foolish to expect anything much greater than that.

( constitution is taught to class 8-9-10 class kids)

J&k has its own reserve bank, flag, anthem etc.

And all students are taught the urdu script.(not sure abt Ladakh )

Indians cannot buy land.

Despite the lack of industries etc J&K has one of the lowest poverty rates of Indian states.


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[agentperry]

J&k has its own reserve bank, flag, anthem etc.

And all students are taught the urdu script.

Indians cannot buy land.

Despite the lack of industries etc J&K has one of the lowest poverty rates of Indian states.


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you belong to other 1%

 

[Singh]

you belong to other 1%

If @atheisthindu wouldve bothered to search, he wouldve found that I had opened similar thread explaining Kashmir vs Jammu vs Ladakh differences in 2009-10.


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[PredictablyMalicious]

Dogras or any other Indian community enmasse is not traitor.
There have been traitors and heroes amid each of these communities.
Sikha lost to British and any contemporary British allies or allies immediately thereafter in north India, would obviously tend to be targets of Sikhs criticism when historic anlaysis takes places.
That is all there is to it IMO and it is natural, lest we try to find right and wrong in it .. in vain.

By the way earlier I didn't mean to say exactly 'Kashmiri' rajput per say. I was trying to convey that Zorawar was born in the area we generally know as Kashmir today.
Consider that as a typo. So he was a Dogra then? Actually I still don't know if there are more than one clans of Rajputs in Jammu area(correcting this time )
Because I've heard of Jasrotias as well. So are they a branch/offshoot of Dogras or they're a different clan ? Jasrotias too have served well in the Indian Army.

Regards,
Virendra

Yes Zorawar Singh was a dogra. Yes, the last name "Jasrotia" is commonly found in Jammu.. Probably the most common rajput last name is Jamwal and this is exclusive to the Jammu area. I'm not too sure about the various rajput clans as I'm a Dogra Brahmin myself.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

Zorawar Singh was a Dogra.

Dogra usually refers to Rajputs (and/or brahmins)

Dogras are spread over HP, J&K, and also in Punjab.

Kashmir Valley is half the size of Jammu and 1/4 the size of Ladakh.

Kashmiri culture and language is very different from Jammu region. For sake of ease of understanding Dogri is virtually Punjabi, and dogra culture similar to Punjabi.


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Frankly, I'm not sure of this claim. In my view, Dogra cannot be classified as an ethnicity. The dogras I have seen from Himachal look very different from the dogras found in Jammu and especially northern Jammu (Udhampur and other areas). Dogras from Northern Jammu tend to be very light with light eyes and virtually indistinguishable from kashmiris, wheras the ones I've seen from Himachal area are darker and shorter (ex. Vijay Kumar from olympics). Also there is a difference in the language spoken.
In Punjab, dogras are found in Pathankot and other bordering areas and their dogri is more similar to Punjabi. Also dogra rajput and brahmins look completely different from dogra mahajans and lower castes. Dogras are a very mixed people.
For example, Santoor artist Rahul Sharma looks like many dogras and yet I couldn't tell if he was kashmiri or dogra based on appearance:

Compare that to Vijay Kumar, the olympian from Himachal

 

[parijataka]

Honestly, indians are really ignorant about my state, both in real life and online. When I told someone I'm from jammu, they assume I'm a kashmiri! Most of people in Jammu are NOT kashmiri. We don't speak kashmiri and are not ethnic kashmiris!! We are dogras and most of us are hindus also! One guy told me "you look like a muslim!" What kind of idiodicy is this? There are many famous dogras in the world. Santoor player Pandit Shivkumar Sharma, Actor Vidyut Jamwal, Actor KL Saigal, Tv actress Ridhi Dogra etc... Pls don't call dogras kashmiris. We are offended when someone calls us kashmiri. Please learn about my state.
Btw majority (~50%) of dogras are rajputs but the second most dominant caste is Brahmin (~30%). We are not all rajputs either. Some people think that too!

Well, for a long time Naarth Indians grouped all people South of the Vindhyas as Madrasis !

 

[Singh]

Yes Zorawar Singh was a dogra. Yes, the last name "Jasrotia" is commonly found in Jammu.. Probably the most common rajput last name is Jamwal and this is exclusive to the Jammu area. I'm not too sure about the various rajput clans as I'm a Dogra Brahmin myself.

I distinctly remember meeting a Jamwal from HP. Probably migrations.

From my interactions Dogra Rajputs have different surnames from other Rajputs.

Whereas Himachali Punjabi and Jammu Brahmins have similar surnames and practices. You must be a Sharma ?


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[PredictablyMalicious]

J&k has its own reserve bank, flag, anthem etc.

And all students are taught the urdu script.(not sure abt Ladakh )

Indians cannot buy land.

Despite the lack of industries etc J&K has one of the lowest poverty rates of Indian states.


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You are wrong that all students are taught the urdu script. It is not taught in Jammu in every school. I was never taught it. However, they gave us the option to take either Urdu or Sanskrit as an additinal language (I chose Sanskrit). In kashmir things are quite different I think. In ladakh, I don't know, do they even have schools ?
And it's true J&K has very little poverty, however there are some illegal bangladeshis here who have set up slums and started begging. Even then, begging in J&K is very low compared to other states

 

[Singh]

Frankly, I'm not sure of this claim. In my view, Dogra cannot be classified as an ethnicity. The dogras I have seen from Himachal look very different from the dogras found in Jammu and especially northern Jammu (Udhampur and other areas). Dogras from Northern Jammu tend to be very light with light eyes and virtually indistinguishable from kashmiris, wheras the ones I've seen from Himachal area are darker and shorter (ex. Vijay Kumar from olympics). Also there is a difference in the language spoken.
In Punjab, dogras are found in Pathankot and other bordering areas and their dogri is more similar to Punjabi. Also dogra rajput and brahmins look completely different from dogra mahajans and lower castes. Dogras are a very mixed people.
For example, Santoor artist Rahul Sharma looks like many dogras and yet I couldn't tell if he was kashmiri or dogra based on appearance:

Compare that to Vijay Kumar, the olympian from Himachal

I think those folks getting admitted to the Army are invariably Dogra Rajputs. Iirc dogris are not enlisted. Not sure about Dogra Brahmins.

And Dogra Rajputs are not as stocky or tall as say Punjabis. I think there was some height relaxation issue here.

Maybe @Ray sir can chime in here

And Dogra Rajputs usually refer to themselves as dogras, ie. it is implied that their origin is Rajput unless specified, like in your case Dogra brahmin ? Perhaps because rajputs outnumber brahmins and/or rajputs have held sway ?


Dont take this the wrong way.


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