Who the army's voting for

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Yusuf, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Yes Sir, we all know that the Armed forces are treated shabbily though they are the ones who protect us from all types of threats. There is no dispute about it. I thought the recent hike had got the ranks till Colonel at par with the babus.
    But Sir, can you shed light on the problems of the ex servicemen which is what this thread is about.
    What are the problems they are facing. Is if just about pension or there are other problems as well?
     
  2. Capricorn

    Capricorn Regular Member

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    The armed forces have to stand up for themselves. the starangle hold of the boffins needs to be broken.

    Over the yrs we have allowed the armed forces to slip in precedence.
     
  3. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    There are so many.

    I hate to appear a cribber.

    The way the Colonel's pay had to be brought at par was a disgraceful exercise on the part of the Govt including those at the helm of affairs.

    I would say that the Army brass of yesteryears are also at fault. Governorship is a good carrot!
     
  4. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    Sir, I agree we got to choose between the lesser evils, but let me ask you, whats the Difference with the UPA and NDA? I find them same, except for some talks of Secularism here and there and a Ram popping up once in a while!

    But with all Due Respect, when did the NDA command the army to do anything worthwhile? Was it the Kargil war, in which our own territory was captured under our own noses and we had no choice but to retake it and then proclaim a great Victory as if we Conquered Lahore!

    Or was it Operation Parakram in which we dilly dallied for months and then finally pulled back upon hearing a statement from a Certain General in Pakistan? Wasnt the parliament attack a bigger attack than Mumbai when we take into factor of it being the symbol of our Democracy?

    Sir, you cannot choose the NDA because then you cannot Ignore the UPA either! They are just one and the same, were it not for SECULARISM and JAI SHRI RAAM!
     
  5. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    ahmed, the BJP is more open to advancing the agenda points of the army, hence their support for them.

    The big change is not which party the ex-servicement orgs. support, its that they support a political party at all.
     
  6. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    And possibly making money out of it a la coffingate?
     
  7. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    I Disagree flint, the UPA has been on a weapons buying spree since it came on board, okay some might have been done by NDA but still they are expediting. Not only that, i have heard some Army Personnel say that AK Anthony is one of the Best Defence Ministers and he is accessible and gets things around babudom which he hates.
     
  8. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    I think the best thing done by the UPA in defense contracts is the offsets clause. It will help India develop its own defense industries and capabilities.
     
  9. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    To be frank, neither the BJP nor the Congress can come to power on their own steam.

    Therefore, they will be in coalition and so long as that happens, there can be no religious politics upfront. The country is also tired of this secularism gimmick which sounds attractive, but in reality does nothing to translate what is stated. In fact, the continuous attempts to divide the country on religious and caste lines by the political parties is getting everyone’s goat since people are no longer illiterate and be taken for a ride.

    It is time that India thinks of itself as one and not as a union of differences.

    The Third or the Fourth Front has very little chance of coming to power, but will be a cashing in on the horse trading that will go on after the elections, when there will be a hung Parliament.

    On Kargil, it was an area that was being guarded by four battalions and a two BSF companies. It used to be guarded by three battalions and two BSF companies. The review of threat perception indicated that this was adequate even though it left gaps. The threat perception was not incorrect as was proved by the failure of Op Badr. It was a calculated risk that had to be taken given the overall operational requirement of the Army as a whole. The premise was that while the Pakistan’s could infiltrate and hold heights, they would not be able to do for long since there was no axis of maintenance. Unless there is an axis of maintenance, no operation can sustain itself, more so if there is a violent reaction from the defender. When Pakistan did infiltrate and hold heights, the inevitable happened. India undertook the Kargil Operations and the Pakistanis were sent reeling back to their side of the LC.

    The reason why a Division occupies what an Independent Brigade used to occupy is to ensure that even if the enemy cannot sustain operation should they have infiltrated, even that is now being denied to the enemy. This deployment is more for political reasons wherein not an inch of ground will be lost.

    The reason why Op Parakrama was not taken to its logical conclusion was because the US and others felt that further escalation would be detrimental to actions being taken against Afghanistan terrorists and the US forces were on Pakistani soil. It maybe mentioned that one of the biggest hurdle for any operations against Pakistan was the Indian tardy mobilisation which required a month plus. That compromised the strategic surprise and since Pakistan cantonments were close to the border, they could launch first and thus seize the initiative, which is a material factor in the conduct of warfare.

    As per Lt Gen Oberoi, the ex DGMO’s article, the concept of the Cold Start to beat the tardy mobilisation and instead have the initiative right from the start, was sent for approval of the Govt during the time when the Chief was Gen Bipin Joshi, who was a visionary person. However, the bureaucrats shot it down.
     
  10. Vinod2070

    Vinod2070 मध्यस्थ Stars and Ambassadors

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    The bureaucrats have so much power? What qualification do they have to shoot down these kinds of proposals?

    I feel there should be more accountability in the defense establishment of the country. These things should be out in the public domain and the incompetent and the corrupt should be exposed and punished.
     
  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Isn't it an interesting fact that the Defence Secretary knows more about the Armed Forces that any of the Service Chief?
     
  12. kautilya

    kautilya Regular Member

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    Why? Ex-servicemen have done as much for the country as the next man, haven't they? I would argue much more. Then why do they not deserve the same privileges of democracy that extend to the rest of us? Let the commies support an agenda. Ok. Crazies bent on dismembering the country? sure. But no ex-servicemen?

    Further this is ex-servicemen. Not serving people. How does this politicize the military?

    Yet we've now reached a stage where during service you can't open your mouth and then once you retire it is also seen as unseemly. How does this work? Why is it unseemly in a democracy to lobby for your benefit?

    These people have sacrificed a lot in the line of duty for their country. At least give them the dignity of expressing their opinions in a democracy.
     
  13. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Totally agree with you Katuliya... Its high-time that the defence forces are given their dues...

    We've been ignoring them with meager pay and very few facilities and perks for the past 60 years... but, we always came up with words like "courage", "sacrifice" etc to try and cheer them up... we would also say "Thank you", "Your sacrifice is the greatest" etc to try and keep their morale up...

    But, then again, none of these words like "courage", "sacrifice" or other conciliatory notes is enough to fill a hungry person's stomach... They deserve much more recognition and benefits that they are being offered currently.

    A mid-level Manager at a Software Company who doesn't play around with his life gets about 3 to 5 times the salary of a Jawan... For God's Sake, let's not humiliate our soldiers ... let's start by giving them some real benefits...

    I'm happy that the group has come together and is planning to vote for somebody who they think will give them some benefits... A WELCOME DEVELOPMENT INDEED !!!
     
  14. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    How come they know more about the Armed Forces?
     
  15. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I was being sarcastic that the Ministers feel that a Defence Secretary knows more than the Service Chiefs.

    The political leadership of India lack military experience, unlike the leaders of most countries and hence are clueless about the Services. Therefore, the live in a vacuum and since the Secretaries and Ministers find their existence mutually beneficial, the Ministers have no option but to go what the bureaucrats state.

    If bureaucrats spill the beans, the Ministers will be up a gum tree!

    Though it pains me to state, Politics is not for social service or nation building, it is a career and a get rich quick scheme for most. Just see our Mayawati. From a help at a village school, she is a crorepati fifty times over! So is out good old Lallu Maharaj!
     
  16. ShyAngel

    ShyAngel Founding Member

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    Funny! Yet the country still is harder, better, stronger, and fastest growing then any other countries.

    :)
     
  17. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Shy,


    For that you need to understand how the bureaucracy works in india. the babus work from a position from where they literally control the complete governance of the state and they are the de facto force running our country and in our system no one really comes close to challenging them not even the political class right up the ladder. This thing is not just with the armed forces of india it is across the board, there would be hardly any govt dept where one could find a technocrat in place of a babu. Probably one of the drawbacks of a civilian set up but then that is how a civilian setup works. Strategy is very clear, let no one come close to a position from where they get out of their control and people who try to do that get them involved in stuff that is unnecessary or find their weaknesses from where they can be exploited till the hilt and believe me this lobby is the strongest in india, they are like a mafia which has a strangle hold on the complete system.


    Things can be cleaned up not that it is impossible but either the politician is too dumb to do any thing about it, or the chap is highly incompetent in his work as is the case with most of our political class, or these politicians are hand in globe with these babus in crime, corruption and in the end this more or less becomes a nexus where the only beneficiary are the political class, the babu class, the high ranking officials of the concerned department, the business class and then there is a trickle down effect and the whole system goes for a toss as is the case with our country. Too many vested interests to let the best of the things to happen. So at the end of the day the central force around which every one is glued together are the babus and for every one concerned the only real factor is their pocket.


    this has been possible more so because at some places the babudome has been cut to size but that in no way means that the hold had loosed. on the contrary with the reforms in place the opportunity for every one concerned to make money is that much more. the only thing that needs to be done is reform a little bit, present your case in front of the international community and when people look at an opportunity of some thing like a billion plus market they take the plunge no matter how many sacrifices they might have to make at the entry point, its too lucrative an offer to let go. the so called talk of 1.5-2 t usd in the swiss banks from indian shores should have some substance to it than just smoke.

    once you are in and get a hang of the system then there is a flow that happens and you know whose hands to grease for your work to be done. the good thing in india is if you are moving through the right person then be rest assured your work will be done. doing good growth rate figures in no way means the system is efficient, you had a satyam which was going great guns till recently!
     
  18. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    Sir, that leaves me wondering. In the 1948 and 1965 wars, how did we manage to hold off Pakistan? If they take less time to mobilize because of their smaller land area, and we needed upto a month or so, they must have been able to capture significant chunks of territory early on in the wars. How about 1971? I know they started an air war in the west, while significant Indian forces were still deployed against East Pakistan, while others at the border with China. Wouldn't it have been an opportune moment for the PA to capture large chunks of territory in the west then considering our troop positions and long deployment times?

    Finally, has the Cold Start strategy been fully adopted yet? I have read a bit about it, and it seems to advocate positioning large number of troop formations close to the border even in peacetime, and doing a blitzkrieg as soon as the decision is taken to go to war.
     
  19. Soham

    Soham DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    There's a difference between what you feel and whats going to happen.
    Those bureaucrats have no qualifications at all, yet they are the ones who call the shot and will be calling the shots in the future, unless India is under a military rule.
    I'll tell you what, the normal public doesn't care about what hardwares we buy, how updated they are, how they compare to those of our hostile neighbours, how they tilt the strategic balance etc... So getting this issue out in public will serve nothing.

    The only possible room for improvement under the realms of democracy is to get better bureaucrats up there, and I don't see that happening.

    Are retired Army Professionals allowed to take up politics ?
     
  20. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    There are defensive and offensive corps. The defence unit hold till the offensive arrive to push into enemy territory.
    This was in the past. With Cold Start the defensive units called pivots will undertake priliminary offensive strikes and the IBGs (integrated battle groups) of which there are eight units will mobilize in a few days time earliest being 72 hours by some accounts, will then thrust into enemy territory with massive firepower
     

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