What will happen to the Admiral Kuzetsov???

[Crusader53]

Personally, I am not surprised that Russia's Carrier Program is being delayed if not in fact canceled. As it was far to ambitious considering the limited amount of funds available.


My question is considering the Admiral Kuznetsov is going in for an extensive refit in 2012-2017. Could Russia sell the Carrier to China and for go the development of the Naval PAK-FA???


For example what if Russia agreed to sell the Admiral Kuzetsov along with a number of Su-33's. Much like the present deal with India and the ex-Gorshkov and Mig-29K's.


Quote:


MOSCOW, Dec. 10 (UPI) -- The Russian military has conceded that it lacks the funds to deploy a powerful new armada of aircraft carriers and that no more would be built for at least 10 years.

The admission comes as a quick rebuttal to remarks by an unnamed military source cited in a string of local news reports that Russia was set to begin construction of new aircraft carriers.

The admission debunks earlier remarks, also, by Russia's navy head Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky that a technical project for an advanced aircraft carrier would be ready by the end of the year.

What's more, Russian navy experts divulged greater details of the project at the time, saying a new aircraft carrier would be nuclear powered and would have a displacement of 50,000-60,000 tons.

This week, however, an unnamed senior official in Russia's Defense Ministry told Interfax news agency that the state armament program for 2011-20 did "not envision the construction of aircraft carriers."

He said current funding plans allowed the military to consider new designs but to hold off on any construction.

"Only then -- after completing the advanced designs -- can we examine the expediency of building aircraft carriers," the official said.

Russia's predicament mirrors that of many foreign companies as China -- once Russia's top client -- starts to compete in global markets with advanced trains, power-generating equipment and other civilian products based on technology obtained from the West.

The military's embarrassing admission signaled Russia's struggle to keep up with President Dmitry Medvedev's stated commitment to modernize a Soviet-era force that has lost its eminent position on the high seas.

Pundits said that the Interfax dispatch appeared to stoke initial confusion among Russia's military brass.

"It was denied by one unnamed official and received with blanket silence by the Defense Ministry itself," the Defense News Web site reported. Then, though, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyokov accepted that it was true.

At the height of its military might, the former Soviet Union had five aircraft carriers. It now has only one -- the Admiral Kuzetsov.

 

[captonjohn]

Selling Admiral Kuznetsov to China would seriously affect Indo-Russian relations and I don't think that Russia can afford this. An aircraft carrier is a big thing and surely it will disturb relation between India and Russia. One possibility can be there that russia re-fit this carrier to work for 10-15 years so that they can start any plan for new aircraft carrier. Another possibility is that Russia sell this carrier to India but it is very unlikely because of unpleasant experience with Gorshkov deal.

 

[Crusader53]

Selling Admiral Kuznetsov to China would seriously affect Indo-Russian relations and I don't think that Russia can afford this. An aircraft carrier is a big thing and surely it will disturb relation between India and Russia. One possibility can be there that russia re-fit this carrier to work for 10-15 years so that they can start any plan for new aircraft carrier. Another possibility is that Russia sell this carrier to India but it is very unlikely because of unpleasant experience with Gorshkov deal.

Russia is sold many things far more damaging to China than a Carrier that China already has! Plus, you didn't see India up it arms when it happened. So, why would Russia believe things would change now????

 

[Rahul Singh]

Admiral Kuznetsov sell to China? Why would Russia sell the ship when they have already made it clear that any construction will be 2020 afterwards? I think VMF is upgrading Admiral Kuznetsov to use it as a filler till the time new carriers starts arriving. After all you don't build carriers in a day. Moreover they have already decided to buy Mig-29Ks for replacing SU-33s. To me this clarification or admission about not starting new construction only consolidates place of Admiral Kuznetsov in VMF.

 

[Crusader53]

Admiral Kuznetsov sell to China? Why would Russia sell the ship when they have already made it clear that any construction will be 2020 afterwards? I think VMF is upgrading Admiral Kuznetsov to use it as a filler till the time new carriers starts arriving. After all you don't build carriers in a day. Moreover they have already decided to buy Mig-29Ks for replacing SU-33s. To me this clarification or admission about not starting new construction only consolidates place of Admiral Kuznetsov in VMF.

Russia for all practical purposes has put its Carrier Program on hold. Even if it changed its mind it would be another 20 years before the first one ever entered service.


Hell, Russia can't even afford to replace any of its major Warships at this stage. Just a couple Submarines and a Small Stealth Frigate. Really, the Russian Navy is fast becoming a Minor Naval Power. As a matter of fact without its Submarine Force. It would be a small player........


.........and don't get me started on the Mig-29K's.:emot159:

 

[Rahul Singh]

If VMF is in such poor state why it is buying Mistral, a bitterly costly french beast? As a matter of fact there is quality depletion in Russian shipbuilding industry both because of lack of funds and manpower. Moreover, Russia is still consolidating its economy and hence spending wisely. Constructing five super carriers in short time is no immediate need as threat perception is not such and has been reasonably delayed. Russia's ultimate aim is to rebuilt Soviet era status and carriers are required for that, but not now. Russia is presently maintaining only minimum military strength or better say defensive military strength by using just enough of state funding for strengthening deterrent forces. Once the Russian economy recovers and it is destined to then you will see a large carrier force in VMF in addition all new goodies. Were these just random decisions to built a cosmodrome in Russia by 2018 and delay carriers by least 10 years? No, in fact it is a part of well planned strategy which calls for surplus funds for building advance infrastructure and only just enough funds for military.

Oh yes, do start on Mig-29Ks, let me see what you throw this time. :emot159:

 

[sandeepdg]

I don't think they are going to sell the Kuzetsnov to anyone , since its the only one remaining. I think Russia is spending minimum resources on defense, due to funds crunch as of now. They are just maintaining their strengths in terms of defensive capabilities. Also, i think in the long run , they will concentrate more on subs than on ACs since they know they can't compete with the other powers in terms of nos. for the next 10 years or so.

 

[Crusader53]

If VMF is in such poor state why it is buying Mistral, a bitterly costly french beast? As a matter of fact there is quality depletion in Russian shipbuilding industry both because of lack of funds and manpower. Moreover, Russia is still consolidating its economy and hence spending wisely. Constructing five super carriers in short time is no immediate need as threat perception is not such and has been reasonably delayed. Russia's ultimate aim is to rebuilt Soviet era status and carriers are required for that, but not now. Russia is presently maintaining only minimum military strength or better say defensive military strength by using just enough of state funding for strengthening deterrent forces. Once the Russian economy recovers and it is destined to then you will see a large carrier force in VMF in addition all new goodies. Were these just random decisions to built a cosmodrome in Russia by 2018 and delay carriers by least 10 years? No, in fact it is a part of well planned strategy which calls for surplus funds for building advance infrastructure and only just enough funds for military.

Oh yes, do start on Mig-29Ks, let me see what you throw this time. :emot159:

What major Warships is Russia building or even planning on building in the next decade??? How many Russian Warships are rusting away because of the lack of funds to retore them to service???



Please, Russia with a "well planned strategy". That's an "oxymoron" if I ever heard one!
:emot15:



As for the Mig-29K it clearly becoming outclassed by other 4.5 Gen Fighters. Let alone the 5th Generation Type than will become available after 2020. Remember, the Kuzetsov is going in for an Extensive Refit between 2012 - 2017. So, the Kuzetsov/Mig-29K Combo will be hardly State of the Art by the beginning of the next Decade.

 

[Crusader53]

I don't think they are going to sell the Kuzetsnov to anyone , since its the only one remaining. I think Russia is spending minimum resources on defense, due to funds crunch as of now. They are just maintaining their strengths in terms of defensive capabilities. Also, i think in the long run , they will concentrate more on subs than on ACs since they know they can't compete with the other powers in terms of nos. for the next 10 years or so.

I agree for the most part. Yet, if Russia does concentrate on Submarines and the Kuzetsov is just a one off with a very limited Air Wing. Russia has little use for it except "Pride". Which, is likely reason enough.


My only point of course was it's possible a deal could be made if "China" decided it really wanted it badly enough.

 

[sandeepdg]

I agree for the most part. Yet, if Russia does concentrate on Submarines and the Kuzetsov is just a one off with a very limited Air Wing. Russia has little use for it except "Pride". Which, is likely reason enough.


My only point of course was it's possible a deal could be made if "China" decided it really wanted it badly enough.

Dude, I also agree with the "pride" part. But from what I heard, it is going for a refit, but then again I am not sure if they will be using the Mig-29k or the SU-33 on it, but anyway either aircraft will become obsolete by the end of next decade, that's for sure, so I have no idea what they plan to do with it after 10 years. As for China, they will rather develop their ACs in-house than buy the Kuzetsnov, since pride is a big issue with them and anyway, they are openly competing with the Russians in every sphere of military hardware, as the whole world knows it. And also, its again the pride factor, due to which I don't think the Russians will sell their only AC to anyone.

 

[Rahul Singh]

What major Warships is Russia building or even planning on building in the next decade??? How many Russian Warships are rusting away because of the lack of funds to retore them to service???



Please, Russia with a "well planned strategy". That's an "oxymoron" if I ever heard one!
:emot15:

To remind you i said it plain and simple that Russia has delayed plans to construct those five super carriers because of two reasons, first there is no immediate need, second the state funds are not enough to simultaneously support large military buildup and construction of advance infrastructure like an all new cosmodrome on Russian soil. Reference to Mistral and deterrent forces (SSNs and SSBNs) was to speak about their strategy to maintain minimum military strength while decisions to build new cosmodrome was to speak about their focus(which is building advance infrastructure). All in all these decisions clearly speaks about a very well planned strategy which is currently under execution.......... But who cares if this sounds like 'oxymoron' to you because of very obvious reasons. :emot15:

As for the Mig-29K it clearly becoming outclassed by other 4.5 Gen Fighters. Let alone the 5th Generation Type than will become available after 2020. Remember, the Kuzetsov is going in for an Extensive Refit between 2012 - 2017. So, the Kuzetsov/Mig-29K Combo will be hardly State of the Art by the beginning of the next Decade.

Remember i did said clearly that Russia is spending more on creation of advance infrastructure and only just enough on military. Decision to buy Mig-29Ks only approves that. Anyway since you were on Mig-29Ks let me come it. How many navel fighters are there in the world today which are of 4.5 generations? Hardly two? And which among these are far too advance than Mig-29Ks? Far too, no way, only little because of AESA and few more electronics....................... O yes, you believe that Mig-29Ks which will be delivered to VMF by 2017-18 will be similar to first batch delivered to our navy. If you bother to do some reading you will find that technologically second batch of Mig-29Ks which will be delivered to our navy will be very comparable to these two 4.5 generation naval fighters and and those which will be delivered to VMF will be even more advance for simple reasons. Without any doubt these Mig-29Ks will serve well for the purpose till Russia develops a naval 5th generation fighter for VMF. And stop crying so much for fifth generation naval fighters, Russia presently is very capable of developing a naval fifth generation fighter by 2020 but for common sense they have given priority to infrastructure.

 

[Crusader53]

To remind you i said it plain and simple that Russia has delayed plans to construct those five super carriers because of two reasons, first there is no immediate need, second the state funds are not enough to simultaneously support large military buildup and construction of advance infrastructure like an all new cosmodrome on Russian soil. Reference to Mistral and deterrent forces (SSNs and SSBNs) was to speak about their strategy to maintain minimum military strength while decisions to build new cosmodrome was to speak about their focus(which is building advance infrastructure). All in all these decisions clearly speaks about a very well planned strategy which is currently under execution.......... But who cares if this sounds like 'oxymoron' to you because of very obvious reasons. :emot15:

Remember i did said clearly that Russia is spending more on creation of advance infrastructure and only just enough on military. Decision to buy Mig-29Ks only approves that. Anyway since you were on Mig-29Ks let me come it. How many navel fighters are there in the world today which are of 4.5 generations? Hardly two? And which among these are far too advance than Mig-29Ks? Far too, no way, only little because of AESA and few more electronics....................... O yes, you believe that Mig-29Ks which will be delivered to VMF by 2017-18 will be similar to first batch delivered to our navy. If you bother to do some reading you will find that technologically second batch of Mig-29Ks which will be delivered to our navy will be very comparable to these two 4.5 generation naval fighters and and those which will be delivered to VMF will be even more advance for simple reasons. Without any doubt these Mig-29Ks will serve well for the purpose till Russia develops a naval 5th generation fighter for VMF. And stop crying so much for fifth generation naval fighters, Russia presently is very capable of developing a naval fifth generation fighter by 2020 but for common sense they have given priority to infrastructure.

How many 4.5 Generation Naval Fighters??? What does that have to do with it??? Russia would have to face any number of threats. Which, will include both 4.5 and 5th Generation Land Based and Naval Based Types. With the majority being Superior to the Mig-29K.

 

[sandeepdg]

Russia would have to face any number of threats. Which, will include both 4.5 and 5th Generation Land Based and Naval Based Types. With the majority being Superior to the Mig-29K.

I think if the Mig-29K is to continue till 2020 it will be as good as any 4.5 generation fighter in the world, I think the Russians understand that very well.
And how will the Russians face a threat from a 5th genr. fighter equipped adversary, rather I would say who will that be ?? the US or the countries getting the F-35 ?? You really think that will happen ? Even if it does, do you really think that any country can stand a chance against Russia, other than the US ?

 

[kuku]

How many 4.5 Generation Naval Fighters??? What does that have to do with it??? Russia would have to face any number of threats. Which, will include both 4.5 and 5th Generation Land Based and Naval Based Types. With the majority being Superior to the Mig-29K.

A plane is superior for a certain role, A rafale-Naval or Super Hornet are optimised for a very strong air to ground and air superiority role, a MiG-29K on the other hand is optimised for a very strong air defence role, a role in which the plane will be guided towards incoming threats by early warning radars, which minimises the role of a radar to guiding active missiles and for searching for the planes in a very limited area.

The only operational naval 5th generation plane around 2020 will be F-35, do you really see Russia engaging nations with naval F-35 (US, UK, Italy, Spain) then a 5th generation naval plane alone will not make much difference, furthermore any carrier design will keep on consulting with Sukhoi to design the ship for the eventual russian naval 5th generation plane.


The Russians have a operational carrier with all the required infrastructure, which is a big asset, right now the Russian Navy is concerned about its nuclear submarines(ballistic and attack) and about new surface vessels, there will be a time when it will start to think seriously about new carriers (2015-18 possibly), at that time it will have an advantage over nations like China which have to develop the aircraft carrier and its associated infrastructure and doctrine from scratch.

The current carrier/aviation cruiser will remain in service till the Russian Navy has at-least 2 new aircraft carriers.

 

[Crusader53]

I think if the Mig-29K is to continue till 2020 it will be as good as any 4.5 generation fighter in the world, I think the Russians understand that very well.
And how will the Russians face a threat from a 5th genr. fighter equipped adversary, rather I would say who will that be ?? the US or the countries getting the F-35 ?? You really think that will happen ? Even if it does, do you really think that any country can stand a chance against Russia, other than the US ?

The Mig-29K could face many threats after 2020 that could be more that a match of the Fulcrum. As a matter of fact the Standard Mig-29 has gotten killed in every engagement thus far. Unless, you want to count the two Cessna's that Cuba Shot Down Flying Mig-29's.


Really, the Mig-29K is likely on the loosing end of all the current 4.5 Generation Aircraft.

I even have my doubts how it would do against PAF F-16's or PLAAF J-10's or J-11's. That of course doesn't even count possible PAK-FA's or J-XX's.



Which, is why the Indian Navy just place a RFI on a New Naval Fighter. Which, speaks volumes about the Mig-29K's capablilities. IMO

 

[duhastmish]

The Mig-29K could face many threats after 2020 that could be more that a match of the Fulcrum. As a matter of fact the Standard Mig-29 has gotten killed in every engagement thus far. Unless, you want to count the two Cessna's that Cuba Shot Down Flying Mig-29's.


Really, the Mig-29K is likely on the loosing end of all the current 4.5 Generation Aircraft.

I even have my doubts how it would do against PAF F-16's or PLAAF J-10's or J-11's. That of course doesn't even count possible PAK-FA's or J-XX's.



Which, is why the Indian Navy just place a RFI on a New Naval Fighter. Which, speaks volumes about the Mig-29K's capablilities. IMO

captain know it all.

can you please enlighten us about the capability of Mig-29k ?????

how do u know so much about it ? and how and when did u test mig-29 against f-16 ? i would like to emphasise that - american f-16 or f-18 against IRAQI mig-29 is no match - compare Russian mig-29k vs f-16 please. or indian mig-29k vs aussie f-16.

the aviation makes a big difference and also training of air force. and quality of it.

j-10 is just junk box we have no clue about it , but for sure its no match to - f-16 of israeli airforce because they dumped their original levi for f-16 sufa.

and paki f-16 are just junkbox they are retired garbage from all over the globe.

Pakistan is just plain junkyard owner - they call them KABADI WALA in india.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME AMERICAN TESTED THEIR FIGHTER JET AGAINST A QUALITY OPPONENT. I REALLY think - most israeli and even paksitani pilot are way better at flying american f-16.

and i dont wanna compare them to germans or brits atall.

 

[Crusader53]

captain know it all.

can you please enlighten us about the capability of Mig-29k ?????

how do u know so much about it ? and how and when did u test mig-29 against f-16 ? i would like to emphasise that - american f-16 or f-18 against IRAQI mig-29 is no match - compare Russian mig-29k vs f-16 please. or indian mig-29k vs aussie f-16.

the aviation makes a big difference and also training of air force. and quality of it.

j-10 is just junk box we have no clue about it , but for sure its no match to - f-16 of israeli airforce because they dumped their original levi for f-16 sufa.

and paki f-16 are just junkbox they are retired garbage from all over the globe.

Pakistan is just plain junkyard owner - they call them KABADI WALA in india.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME AMERICAN TESTED THEIR FIGHTER JET AGAINST A QUALITY OPPONENT. I REALLY think - most israeli and even paksitani pilot are way better at flying american f-16.

and i dont wanna compare them to germans or brits atall.

I could care less about any "Test". How about the real world! The Mig-29 has a terrible record and has lost time and time again. Either in real Aircombat or Exercises.


Sorry, if that hurts your feelings but its the plain truth.

 

[JBH22]

I could care less about any "Test". How about the real world! The Mig-29 has a terrible record and has lost time and time again. Either in real Aircombat or Exercises.


Sorry, if that hurts your feelings but its the plain truth.

The mig-29 has had a decent record with INDIA in other countries this plane failed because of other factors rather the plane itself.
The poor record with the Ruaf first is due to the economic downturn that happened the VVS preferred to modernise the SU-27 and Mig-31,in Serbia the plane was facing overwhelming odds so your idea that it failed is too simplistic.

 

[civfanatic]

I could care less about any "Test". How about the real world! The Mig-29 has a terrible record and has lost time and time again. Either in real Aircombat or Exercises.


Sorry, if that hurts your feelings but its the plain truth.

Before publicly displaying your ignorance on the MiG-29 an open forum like this one, look up the exercises between American F-16s and German MiG-29s in the early 90s.

By your same logic I can say that the F-86 is a terrible fighter since Pakistan lost every war it fought while using this plane.

 

[bharadwaj]

@Crusader53-The IN MiG-29 k has better RADAR than IAF's SU-30 MKI(BARS PESA).It has lower RCS when compared to our MiG-29b it has extended range,best avionics with the latest FCS on board.So,i would not discount the Naval Fulcrums BTW it is more than a match to our adversaries' F-16 MLU/block-52+.The Russian jets are heavily underrated due to the American propaganda(for which,you have fallen prey to!).American pilots took a back seat when Russian/Soviet pilots entered the Vietnamese scenario!DON'T FORGET!