What is best calibre for an Assault Rifle?

Discussion in 'Land Forces' started by Sunder singh, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    May be old for you but not for the Armies who still have to fight conventional operations..

    There is a difference between assault weapon and personal weapon such SMC and pistols carried by soldiers who do some other major activities other than firing assauly weapons ... like LMG carrying or RL fifring soldier. He can not defend himself when enemy is 50 yards away from him. Hence he needs to carry an addition small weapon due to weight.

    You gave an example of countries which would never ever fight conventional trench warfare but only are required to carry out expeditionary operations. We are talking about India, my freind Kunal.

    Keep the context in view rather than what is being followed by UK.
     
  2. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    In the distance 400 meters from a short turn are easily "taken" off full-length target. In the distance anymore, a purpose is necessary to be yet seen. But in the target of APC shot is possible.
     
  3. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Sorry Sir, You missed the big picture that these are the countries fought WW2 and they made those rule in past..

    And its the brits gave there knowledge to us during colonial days, Which we are still following but technological advances in west reformed the way one thinks and fight..

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    Why would you need a Carbine where your AR is small as carbine and the recoil is more or less same and fire power is same for CQB and the same AR is damn good in Long ranges with excellent accuracy and with optics pin point precision ?

    Weight is significantly reduced as Carbine..

    ------------

    In RR, No one use carbine but AR such as AKs..
     
  4. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    For them the conditions of warfare have changed. Have the conditions of warfare changed for IA... internal security battles are not supposed to be fought by the Army, it is only a compulsion but we have large insecure borders for conventional wars. IA is required to think about it and no RL operator will carry AKM with him there besides 84 mm RL.
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    There is no alternative to carry AKM as nothing near to AKM is available. Majboori ka nam Gandhi.

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    yes because RR fight the battle most suitable for AKs and not conventional wars. On LC / LOC no one uses AKMs.
     
  5. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Not the condition but the tactics and techniques improved over years but we are following what they taught us 70 years back..

    In conventional theater the same AR can hit targets at ranges over 300m,

    And its our budget and lack of attention to infantry that our solider does carry AK with RL as there are no other option..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    There are plenty of options available, CRPF use X95 and Para use TAR-21..

    AKM is used coz its better than carbine and gives moderate range in Cheap
     
  6. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    AKM is carried because he has no other choice with him..
    where is M-4
    where is TAR or whatever?
    There is not even pistol for that poor soldiers to carry..

    and moreover, it is his confidence in that weapon .. that speaks for that weapon..
     
  7. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    If I were asked to pick between an AKM and an M-4, I'd pick the AKM.

    I have shot both (see below).

    [​IMG]
    M-4, 9mm

    [​IMG]
    WASR AKM
     
  8. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    М4 is necessary to be compared to АК- 74
     
  9. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I agree, M-4 (9 mm) is better compared with AK-74 (5.45 mm).
     
  10. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    A soldier whoes primary weapon is the squad or platoon weapon is supposed to carry a weapon for his personal defense such as crew of 2 " Mortar, crew of 84 mm RL etc.
    Primarily they carry pistols. but in battles like insugency where physical fatigue and march may be a few km, troops would like to carry an AK rather than pistol. They carry AK because they have no choice in between AK and pistol. Suppose M-614 or any other thing was available they could have choosen that. But except SMC nothing is available and SMC is the worst choice because of unreliability and least safety.

    Suppose there is Tavor existing, I really wonder the soldiers will pick up Tavor Xittara or AK as secondary weapon!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  11. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    No. M4 5,56 and AK-74 5,45
     
  12. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Ah, now I know what you meant. I haven't shot that one. Yes, those two calibres are very similar.
     
  13. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Are you sure that solider carry pistol / carbine in regular Anti-tank / RL units in IA ? I dont think so, May be in older days but i am not sure..

    In regular units AFAIK i have seen Insas & Now days Carbine is being sended back and replaced by new gen Insas rifles..

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    I dont know about M-123 but X-95 is lighter than AK and more accurate at longer ranges..
     
  14. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    AK as secondary weapon?

    Tavor bullpups are indeed good, I'll agree.

    Any reliable 9mm SMG is good for mop-up operations, especially in built up areas, such as, villages and buildings.
     
  15. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    A a secondary weapon...
    A man who carries RCL or RL for him his primary weapon is that..
    for his personal defense below 50 m he is supposed to carry what is known as personal weapon.... for personal defence.. For that carrying AK is a bit more...
     
  16. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Why to have a wepion of 50m which cause additional logistics and spares where you have something which is regular and light weighted same as carbine range is more than carbine and size same as carbine ?

    Today PDW carbine remained till body guards and Urban Police force..
     
  17. Akim

    Akim Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Here that Americans did with RPD. But he 7,62x39
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    this is lack of understanding the basics...
    A man carrying 84 mm RK is supposed to concentrate on that..
    Similarily, a 2 " mortar crew...

    They are supposed to defend theself " personaly" when an enemy is within 50 yards. That is why their personal weapon is invariably a pistol...
    Same is the case for an officer who is supposed to direct the battle rather than fire. That is why he carries a pistol ..

    but when the battle is within 50m.. then there is no choice..
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Right, for a Carl-Gustav carrying soldier, that is his primary weapon. He will need a light weapon for secondary role.

    I'd suggest AK-74SU, but then, that would mean introducing yet another calibre, and increasing logistic problems. Izhmash makes 5.56 mm AKMs; perhaps we could think of an AK-74SU in 5.56 mm?
     
  20. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    What about his load... he would take care of his RL or AK...
    Secondary weapon generally is a pistol..or a carbine.....

    weight of a soldier is one of the important consideration or he will throw away one of the weights...
     

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