What if we had to choose between MBT's.

[sayareakd]

one of the reason IA is going for T90 is that it can resist the radiation levels of nuclear explosion.

almost all modern tanks can do that even our Arjun can do that not only nuclear explosion but also other chemical and bio explosion.

 

[sayareakd]

In my humble opinion, if IA dont want Arjun tank, then we should go for Markava tank, since the Israel will give complete TOT, this tanks capabilites can be inhanced by what DRDO has learn from Arjun experiance and this tank has unique capabilites to act as soilders carrier since the engine is in front and therefore they have got emple space at the back.

further more use of LAHAT, trophy and laser cannon to take out IEDs give it edge compaire to other available product, its downside is its weight and its price.

 

[Vladimir79]

In my humble opinion, if IA dont want Arjun tank, then we should go for Markava tank, since the Israel will give complete TOT, this tanks capabilites can be inhanced by what DRDO has learn from Arjun experiance and this tank has unique capabilites to act as soilders carrier since the engine is in front and therefore they have got emple space at the back.

further more use of LAHAT, trophy and laser cannon to take out IEDs give it edge compaire to other available product, its downside is its weight and its price.

Merkava worked real well in Lebanon 2006... not.

The price is far too high for a failed tank.

 

[StealthSniper]

In my humble opinion, if IA dont want Arjun tank, then we should go for Markava tank, since the Israel will give complete TOT, this tanks capabilites can be inhanced by what DRDO has learn from Arjun experiance and this tank has unique capabilites to act as soilders carrier since the engine is in front and therefore they have got emple space at the back.

further more use of LAHAT, trophy and laser cannon to take out IEDs give it edge compaire to other available product, its downside is its weight and its price.

The Merkava tank is only made for Israeli terrain. It was designed first and foremost as a tank for the Israeli environment and really isn't suited for the variety of different terrain and weather that we get in India. If India doesn't want the Arjun tank then they should learn from it and develop a new tank based off the Arjun. Sure it's nice to buy a tank like the Merkava but if we keep buying tanks then we won't even have the Arjun to talk about. If you think about it, if we made something like the Arjun on our very first try, just imagine how much better the second one could be after all the stuff we learned from the first one.

 

[sayareakd]

Merkava worked real well in Lebanon 2006... not.

The price is far too high for a failed tank.

you need to see crew casulties in that war, then you will realised how many lives were saved, BTW T series tank had performed worse in gulf war and the last war which russia has faced last year.

 

[sayareakd]

The Merkava tank is only made for Israeli terrain. It was designed first and foremost as a tank for the Israeli environment and really isn't suited for the variety of different terrain and weather that we get in India. If India doesn't want the Arjun tank then they should learn from it and develop a new tank based off the Arjun. Sure it's nice to buy a tank like the Merkava but if we keep buying tanks then we won't even have the Arjun to talk about. If you think about it, if we made something like the Arjun on our very first try, just imagine how much better the second one could be after all the stuff we learned from the first one.

Sir, i am big suppoter of Arjun tank and i would love to see Arjun MK-I and II in IA in very very large number, in fact i have gone to the extent to designing new Arjun MK-III concept tank in my blog.

Arjun has started its induction into IA, when the tank commander will see what type of protection it provide compaire to T series tank and its supperior firepower and other features they will give up T series tank and will prefer Arjun tank.

But the moot point in this debate is to look for replacement for T 90 tank from list of 5 tank (read page no.1 pls) therefore my previous comment.

 

[AJSINGH]

you need to see crew casulties in that war, then you will realised how many lives were saved, BTW T series tank had performed worse in gulf war and the last war which russia has faced last year.

performed aginst which tanks ,can you specify ,if you are saying T-72 /s M1A1 ,then you are comparing oranges and apples ,those two tanks are in different league

 

[Vladimir79]

you need to see crew casulties in that war, then you will realised how many lives were saved, BTW T series tank had performed worse in gulf war and the last war which russia has faced last year.

IDF lost 56 tanks, 18 of them Mk IV... tank corps deaths were made up 33% by Mk IV. Out of the tanks knocked out of action, 32% were Mk IV. Their best tank had a death rate 1% higher than their older tanks. Explain to me how that is a life saver?

T series in Gulf War has nothing to do with nothing. Russian tank casualties in Georgia =ZERO. The last time Russian tanks came under heavy fire was Kadori Gorge 2000, a T-90 took seven RPG hits and kept on rolling without a care in the world.

 

[bengalraider]

abram and safety but at what cost,those depleated uranium armour is environmental hazard,plus those tanks are made for crusing ,in big cities ,i have seen a picture of abrams with small refrigirator inside in deser storm operations
the missile defense systems give the T-90 maybe an advantage against modern ATGMs
The M1A1 weighs 63 tons...the T-90 weighs 46. ,hence T-90 is faster
not forgetting ,the logistics required for MIAI is very expensive
OPERATIONAL RANGE AND IN WEAPONS T-90S IS BETTER

Challenger 2 is equipped with a 120 mm . The T-90's main armament is the 2A46M 125 mm smoothbore gun.
operational range of challenger 2 -450km
operational range of t-90s -550km
power of the engine in challenger 2-1200hp
power in T-90s - 1250hp

T-90s has 3tier defense system whereas challeneger has only 2 tier defense system

if you want to compare t-90s with any tank it would be leopard 2,not forgetting that germans have always , made good tanks ,leo2 is not exception,plus looking from IA side ,T-90s is the most logical choice

I would prefer my tankers to be safe rather than worrying about the environment , if we need depleted uranium armor to save them from Pakistani ATGM's then so be it, also i have already said i would prefer the M1A2 T.U.S.K(tank urban survival kit )hence the point about urban survivability has been addressed, as far as speed is concerned the M1A2 does 67.8kmph on road to the T-90's 60kmph.as far as safety is concerned the T-90 is built on the chassis of the T-72 and faces much the same design problems(eg the hits on T series tanks in Chechnya & Georgia caused serious crew casualties).However i would agree that the T-90 has an ace up it's sleeve in it's ability to launch ATGM's from a further range than comparable western tanks.
As far as 120mm vs 125mm is concerned it is more a matter of using standard Russian anti-tank rounds to standard NATO anti-tank rounds than anything else.

AS far as the challenger two is concerned i would take the below into account more than any issues about range and engine power

In one encounter within the urban area a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The driver's sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit directly by eight rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile, and was under heavy small arms fire for hours. The crew survived remaining safe within the tank until the tank was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later after the repairs. One Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident
source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2905817.stm & wikipedia/B].[9]

There have been only two Challenger 2s damaged in combat and one destroyed:

All said and done is the T-90 the best tank in the world i believe not , that honor could go to the Leopard ,the challenger , the Abrams or even our home grown arjun.
but is the T-90 the best we can afford yes!
is the T-90 the only one that came with substantial ToT ,yes!
Did the T-90 fit the operating needs of the IA better ,yes!

So yes i would agree with you apart from the arjun the T-90 is the best tank for the IA.

 

[bengalraider]

IDF lost 56 tanks, 18 of them Mk IV... tank corps deaths were made up 33% by Mk IV. Out of the tanks knocked out of action, 32% were Mk IV. Their best tank had a death rate 1% higher than their older tanks. Explain to me how that is a life saver?

T series in Gulf War has nothing to do with nothing. Russian tank casualties in Georgia =ZERO. The last time Russian tanks came under heavy fire was Kadori Gorge 2000, a T-90 took seven RPG hits and kept on rolling without a care in the world.

The Russian army had established air-superiority & numerical superiority in Georgia(hence no massive opposition); however Georgian T series tanks have shown extreme vulnerability to Anti-tank weapons in the very same war.
The problem i have with the T-90 is that the Russian military has itself admitted that the T-90 is not it's future tank, that is going to be the T-95; i would not want to advocate any tank that the home military does not want.

However i am intrigued by this T-90 in the Kadori gorge, could you please elaborate

Disclaimer:i do not have anything against Russian tanks they are some of the best in the world; have been inside a T-72 & Bmp-2 know what it feels like!

 

[Vladimir79]

Considering the T-90S can take 7 RPG hits and keep on rolling, and the Challey 2 can't... what can you say?

 

[sayareakd]

performed aginst which tanks ,can you specify ,if you are saying T-72 /s M1A1 ,then you are comparing oranges and apples ,those two tanks are in different league

i am talking about the protection to the tank, markava against the T series tank (T 72 of course).

@Vladimir79 your post was answered by bengalraider, therefore thanks bengalraider. w.r.t the casuties to tank crew of israel i dont have the post or link with me but i will try to find that.

With respect to Russia and Georgian war i was talking about the T series tank, since both the armies used T series tank, it appears that you are bit confused when i say T series tank and you think that i am talking about Russian army T series tank.
as far as your zero casulty tank claim is concern here is pic for you kind information.
here is pic of that tank

610xax9.jpg (image)

 

[sayareakd]

Considering the T-90S can take 7 RPG hits

can you provide any link or any pic supporting the same, when i say T 90S (i mean same tank which was first supplied to IA) not the one which was produce for Russian army, but not in service in large number.

May i also say in same breath that Russia army is aware about in inherent weakness in present T series tank including T 90S tanks, therefore they want to make FMBT which would provide better crew protection. That is why their is talk of FMBT collabration with India.

for records here is pic of T 90 tank penetration

T-90.jpg (image)

 

[Vladimir79]

as far as your zero casulty tank claim is concern here is pic for you kind information.
here is pic of that tank

Peacekeeper T-72 hit by MLRS fire, crew survived. No casualties...

 

[sayareakd]

Peacekeeper T-72 hit by MLRS fire, crew survived. No casualties...

who fired this MLRS and which one ???

 

[Vladimir79]

who fired this MLRS and which one ???

Georgia fired 122mm Grad rockets into JSC peacekeeper compound in Tskhinvali.

 

[bengalraider]

Considering the T-90S can take 7 RPG hits and keep on rolling, and the Challey 2 can't... what can you say?

The chally also took one ATGM.another chally took 70 RPG's and survived! we all know what ATGM's do to T series tanks.The Russian army itself recognizes that the T- series needs no be revamped into a completely new design hence the ongoing development of the T-95, and subsequent low induction of the T-90 into the RA.
as far as the 7 rpg hits is concerned ,You still haven't provided details on this battle.

 

[Vladimir79]

One hit from RPG-29 sliced through Challey 2 ERA like butter. One went through the side of M1A2 the same way. Metis and Kornet turned Merkava Mk IV to junk. There is no armour that can defeat latest Russian anti-tank weapons. All modern MBTs can stop second generation RPG, ATGMs... if they can't, they are not modern. There is no armour for the third which makes APS necessary. Considering Pakistan and China don't have Russian AT tech yet, T-90S will do just fine.

 

[AJSINGH]

I would prefer my tankers to be safe rather than worrying about the environment , if we need depleted uranium armor to save them from Pakistani ATGM's then so be it, also i have already said i would prefer the M1A2 T.U.S.K(tank urban survival kit )hence the point about urban survivability has been addressed, as far as speed is concerned the M1A2 does 67.8kmph on road to the T-90's 60kmph.as far as safety is concerned the T-90 is built on the chassis of the T-72 and faces much the same design problems(eg the hits on T series tanks in Chechnya & Georgia caused serious crew casualties).However i would agree that the T-90 has an ace up it's sleeve in it's ability to launch ATGM's from a further range than comparable western tanks.
As far as 120mm vs 125mm is concerned it is more a matter of using standard Russian anti-tank rounds to standard NATO anti-tank rounds than anything else.

AS far as the challenger two is concerned i would take the below into account more than any issues about range and engine power

There have been only two Challenger 2s damaged in combat and one destroyed:

All said and done is the T-90 the best tank in the world i believe not , that honor could go to the Leopard ,the challenger , the Abrams or even our home grown arjun.
but is the T-90 the best we can afford yes!
is the T-90 the only one that came with substantial ToT ,yes!
Did the T-90 fit the operating needs of the IA better ,yes!

So yes i would agree with you apart from the arjun the T-90 is the best tank for the IA.

i do not agree with you , having 125mm gun does make a difference ,more fire prower , depleated uranium is a hazard , in the long run the logictics is an issue , T-90s has enough armour to protect itself from pakistan ATGM,true T-90s is bulit on the chassi of T-72 but no issue in T-90s if that was the case i would have known ( my unlce being commanding officer of IA tank division ,so i know what i am talking about ) since t-90s is lighter than A1M1 ,more T-90s can be airlifted in c-130j and Il 76 . i have provided you with facts ,T-90s is better than challenger anyday ( even my uncle agree with it ) with gigher operational range and better protection system
since we are talking about T-90s ,let me tell you that tank was slected after looking at many other western tanks ,so yeh IA knows wat T-90s is capable of doing ,plus you are comparing the best qualities of every tank with T-90s ( A1M1 protection is the best but cost and logictics is an issue , leo2 is bets in urban warfare but lacks much protection, challenger is accurate but operational range is considerably less than T-90s ) but T-90s is good inalmost all respects. the best all round tank would go to T-90s because it is cheap , effective . arjun tank was a disaster ( that is why IA notbuying any more arjun ) . if i have to rank the tanks in their features ,it would be like this
1-Leo 2 and T-90s
2-challenger 2
3-MIA1

 

[AJSINGH]

The Russian army had established air-superiority & numerical superiority in Georgia(hence no massive opposition); however Georgian T series tanks have shown extreme vulnerability to Anti-tank weapons in the very same war.
The problem i have with the T-90 is that the Russian military has itself admitted that the T-90 is not it's future tank, that is going to be the T-95; i would not want to advocate any tank that the home military does not want.

However i am intrigued by this T-90 in the Kadori gorge, could you please elaborate

Disclaimer:i do not have anything against Russian tanks they are some of the best in the world; have been inside a T-72 & Bmp-2 know what it feels like!

ofcourse T-90s is not the future tank ,leo2 or challenger or M1A1 is also not the future tank . evry tank keep on getting better