What do People involved in Partition think of Pakistan ?

[KS]

One question that has always bugged my mind is about the opinion of the people who shared culture,customs,practises with the lands that are now Pakistan. On one hand they hate Pakistan in a vitriolic manner and at the same time, especially in foreign countries, look the Pakistanis as just one of them..(or atleast thats what I think when I see them socializing)....Whats the reason for this dichotomy - a love, hate relationship....I mean you were the guys affected by Partition and yet....

Read this article - India cannot always be at odds with Pakistan – The Express Tribune

A US diplomat cable released by the WikiLeaks says that when Mamohan Singh spoke about India's shared destiny with Pakistan, Narayanan reportedly said: "You have a shared destiny, we do not." There is no reason to disbelieve the report, particularly when India's Foreign Office (FO) has expressed its inability to comment on it.

The author of this article , Kuldip Nayar blames Mr.Narayanan for being a Hawk with Pakistan while he (MKN) was just being pragmatic and repeatedly betrays his soft corner for Pakistan.

I saw this discussion on PDF which was initiated by my friend and thought about asking the members here. This is not a flaming trolling topic. Just I need the opinions on the question and to the article itself. I would especially like the Punjabi members to give their opinions as they saw one of the largest transfer of populations.

 

[pankaj nema]

It is said by SOME Punjabis that the two Punjabs ie Indian and Pakistani Punjabs are still joined at the hips .

Therefore you have Manmohan Singh , Kuldip Nayyar and Barkha Dutt Still dreaming of Breakfast in Amritsar and Lunch in Lahore

However the near complete radicalisation and Talibanisation have made most Punjabis realise that relations
with Pakistan can never be normal

In Other Indian states Pakistan is just a threat and an enemy

Kashmiris are another matter altogether .While they ARE Definitely aware of the Pathetic situation in POK
yet Pakistan is still JAAN se pyara ie dearer than life

 

[Galaxy]

Well, I have noticed one things about various Pakistan provinces people attitude/feeling towards India.

Baluchistan + KP - Neutral view towards India
Sindhe - Sometime positive sometime Negative
Punjab - always Anti Indian

Kashmir - Different situation altogether.

People of Karachi don't hate India so much compare with Lahore. Pakistan Punjabi are culturally attached to India, But don't forget most of them are Anti-Indian. same mutual feeling here also.

 

[KS]

Well, I have noticed one things about various Pakistan provinces people attitude/feeling towards India.

Baluchistan + KP - Neutral view towards India
Sindhe - Sometime positive sometime Negative
Punjab - always Anti Indian

Kashmir - Different situation altogether.

People of Karachi don't hate India too much compare with Lahore.

I dont care what the hell Pakistanis think of India.. My question was directed towards the Indian Punjabis and other North Indian states who were affected by Pakistan, yet some of them can see a common ground with them...like Kudip Nayyar, MMS etc.... I was asking about the opinion of Indians...

Pakistan Punjabi are culturally attached to India, But don't forget most of them are Anti-Indian. same mutual feeling here also.

I was coming to this part through the Tribune article mentioned. They are not attached to India..just were to Indian part of Punjab..and this is what MK Narayanan stressed when MMS spoke about a common destiny..

 

[pankaj nema]

Only a very small number of Indians and that too Elderly people are interested or rather nostalgic about Pakistan

Some elderly Sindhis very fondly tell tales of their times in Karachi

Since 2 generations have already passed the new generation of the refugees from Pakistan really
do nt care

In fact it is the other way round .Pakistanis ie Mohajirs who went there are still rooting for India

Any realistic and meaning ful relationship with Pakistan will have to wait for 50 years atleast

It will take 50 years for all toxic ideologies , which are visible at present , to be removed

 

[Galaxy]

I dont care what the hell Pakistanis think of India.. My question was directed towards the Indian Punjabis and other North Indian states who were affected by Pakistan, yet some of them can see a common ground with them...like Kudip Nayyar, MMS etc.... I was asking about the opinion of Indians...

Northern Indians don't like Pakistan.

Punjab transfer of population happened on very large scale. Like Hindus/Sikhs of Lahore came to India and Muslims of Gurdaspur/Amritsar went to Pakistan. It was not culturally shocked because both were same Punjab. Yes, 1/3rd of the population lost their native place but eventually it become normal. Today, Indian Punjabi don't have any positive feeling about Pakistan. They along with Northern Indians hate Pakistan more than South Indian. All the culture, tradition, customs were originated from Hinduism. Sikh is branch of Hinduism. So, Indian Punjabi people don't feel anything about Pakistani Punjabi as they were originally Indian/Hindus only. They have identity crisis between Hindus/Indian Culture and Arabs religious ideology . We are following same tradition which we were doing thousands of years back.

 

[KS]

^^ We need the older pre-partition gen like Kuldip Nayyar to pass out before indulging in any meaningful talks without the bhaichara emotional atyachar.

 

[Galaxy]

Most of the Punjabi are Khatri, Jatt, Rajput, Gujjars.

Khatri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Manmohan Singh, Kapoor's are Khatri.

Today, Khatri population is divided between 3 parts : Hindus, Muslim, Sikhs. 1/3rd each almost. Religion wise, it's divided in 3 parts, or say 2 parts Muslims and Sikhs/Hindus. If one forgets the religion. Then All Khatris were same.

Lava and Kusha, the sons of Lord Rama, founded Lahore and Kasur, and the descendants of Lava and Kusha form the Khatri Bedi and Sodhi clans

Pre-1947 is next to Impossible now. Today, Indian and Pakistani Punjab is completely divided between religions. There is hardly 1% Hindus/Sikhs in Pakistan Punjab. Here also, Punjab+Haryana+ HP - Muslim population is very less merely 2%. 98% Muslims went to Pakistan and 98% Hindus/Sikhs came to India (From Punjab belt).

 

[KS]

Northern Indians don't like Pakistan.

Punjab transfer of population happened on very large scale. Like Hindus/Sikhs of Lahore came to India and Muslims of Gurdaspur/Amritsar went to Pakistan. It was not culturally shocked because both were same Punjab. Yes, 1/3rd of the population lost their native place but eventually it become normal. Today, Indian Punjabi don't have any positive feeling about Pakistan. They along with Northern Indians hate Pakistan more than South Indian. All the culture, tradition, customs were originated from Hinduism. Sikh is branch of Hinduism. So, Indian Punjabi people don't feel anything about Pakistani Punjabi as they were originally Indian/Hindus only. They have identity crisis between Hindus/Indian Culture and Arabs religious ideology . We are following same tradition which we were doing thousands of years back.

Actually its not that simple as your narrative. Nema explained it better. There is indeed a love/hate relationship between the two Punjabis especialy from those of the pre-partition gen like Kuldip Nayyar, MMS etc.

I was just asking what do the current gen of Punjabis/North Indians think about Pakistan......The primary reason I asked is that Punjabis even abroad prefer Punjabis to socialize even if they are from the other side than Indians from East or South...Sorry this is not meant to hurt anyone..but this was just a personal observation from a first hand experience.

 

[Galaxy]

Actually its not that simple as your narrative. Nema explained it better. There is indeed a love/hate relationship between the two Punjabis especialy from those of the pre-partition gen like Kuldip Nayyar, MMS etc.

I was just asking what do the current gen of Punjabis/North Indians think about Pakistan......The primary reason I asked is that Punjabis even abroad prefer Punjabis to socialize even if they are from the other side than Indians from East or South...Sorry this is not meant to hurt anyone..but this was just a personal observation from a first hand experience.

Well, It will be always love and hate between both side as ethnically both were same 65 years back. But 1947 riot changed the whole scenario. Today, Indian Punjabis don't have any relation with Pakistani one. 99% new generation never been to Pakistan. They think Punjab as part of Islamic state. Yes, Both like also each other due to same ethnic. But it's like North Korea and South Korea.

Current generation of Punjabi hates Pakistan for many reasons. If anyone will get the opportunity to merge as single state. Both side will reject. There is one more thing, Punjab is just a 1 out of 20's state of India but on Pakistan side, it's more than 50% population. Ethnic value is lost in Pakistan. They are more Muslims now and part of Islamic country. Most of them use "Urdu" as their main language. Here, We have maintained our Punjabi tradition. Also, There is hardly any Muslims here and very less Hindus/Sikhs there. So, brotherhood among religion also disappeared.

 

[KS]

@galaxy.....are u from punjab...?

 

[Galaxy]

Actually its not that simple as your narrative. Nema explained it better. There is indeed a love/hate relationship between the two Punjabis especialy from those of the pre-partition gen like Kuldip Nayyar, MMS etc.

I was just asking what do the current gen of Punjabis/North Indians think about Pakistan......The primary reason I asked is that Punjabis even abroad prefer Punjabis to socialize even if they are from the other side than Indians from East or South...Sorry this is not meant to hurt anyone..but this was just a personal observation from a first hand experience.

Because both speak same Punjabi. Tradition is also same. That's why it's easy. Pakistani Punjabi are close to Indian Punjabi than anyone in the whole world. It's more to do with same ethnic group. It's common. I met few Pakistani Punjabi, It was friendly conversation. I never thought that they are Pakistani and I am Indian. we both talked like we both are Punjabis 1st. Indeed, I can't talk to many Tamil people who don't speak Hindi or English.

But still, You are Tamil and I as north Indian are same and we both hate Pakistan. Isn't it ?

It's like that. Making good relation is always possible same like West Bengal Bengali and Bangladesh Bengali. Indian Bengali are more close to Bangladesh than Punjabis. Same goes for Sindhi, They are more close to Gujarati.

KP more close to Afghanistan, Baluchistan are more close to Iran. Pakistani Kashmiri are more close to Indian Kashmir.

It's more to do with Ethnic and not country

 

[Galaxy]

Pakistan Punjab = Indian Punjab

Sindhe = Rajasthan/Gujarat

Baluchistan = Iran

KP = Pashtuns of Afghanistan

POK + Gilgit Balistan = J&K

Nepal = Noth Bihar, North UP, Uttrakhand

Bhutan = Sikkim

Bangladesh = WB, Assam, tripura

Jharkhand = North Orissa

Bihar = East U.P. (poorvanchal)

Mahrashtra = Goa = north Karnataka

Tamil Nadu = Karnataka = Andhra Pradesh

M.P. + Bundelkhand (UP) + Chattisgarh + East Rajasthan

Delhi + West UP + Central UP

Kerala

 

[KS]

Hmm...I understand the ethnic part and its normal...but then my exact question was how was this possible in the case of Punjabis because Imo it was the Punjabis who underwent the biggest share of partition related trauma....I think this shared ethnicity culture is affecting the perspective of people like MMS,Kuldip Nayar, Barkha etc even after 64 years of partition

 

[Daredevil]

Why only punjabis??. Even bengalis are joined at hip and still use same language. Many bengalis of India have their ancestral home in the present day Bangladesh. Many had to migrate to WestBengal during partition.

 

[Galaxy]

Hmm...I understand the ethnic part and its normal...but then my exact question was how was this possible in the case of Punjabis because Imo it was the Punjabis who underwent the biggest share of partition related trauma....I think this shared ethnicity culture is affecting the perspective of people like MMS,Kuldip Nayar, Barkha etc even after 64 years of partition

it will be always like this.

Why baluch people don't hate India same like Punjabi of Pakistan ? even when 99% Population in Baluchistan are Muslims. Because they never had any problem with India. Indeed, Most of them originated from Iran.

Why Mohajirs of Karachi vote to Altaf hussan ? why they don't vote to PPP or ML ?

Why Tamil people vote to 2 Dravidian party DMK and AIADMK ? Why they don't vote to BJP and Congress like nearby state Karnataka ?

Ethnic values mattera in day to day life. This is fact and tradition of many ethnic groups!!

But depends on what context

 

[Galaxy]

Both side of Punjabi shared same ethnic groups. So, They are comfortable to each other. But They don't like each other due to different country and sometime difference in their religion also.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

The views in north and particularly in Punjab are divergent, some are completely in love and the romance lingers on and its not just with the older generation but with people who form a part of "people to people contact" and this goes for whole of India and then there are the leftists as well, the prime examples of which are MMS's, KN's, NDTV's, the other are indifferent but the number is largely insignificant or so it has become and then there is a section which is hostile to them, which I suspect forms the majority. I have seen a surge in anti-pakistan feeling post 26/11 with the present generation. There was a time prior to that when people would not be as belligerent or hardly, on the contrary people from Pakistan would be whole heartedly welcomed but things have changed dramatically to the extent a lot of Pakistanis coming to north indian states don't quite tell the man on the street that they are from Pakistan, in fact they are advised not to, else there is every chance of, if not more, some harsh words in store.

There are two aspects as I see it.

Pakistan reins in all sorts of terrorism targeted towards and in India, if they do that, engage them extensively, I have no qualms what so ever, there is much to gain, not only does the very enterprising and highly competitive indian business community gets access to a market of 180m people, but we need Pakistan as a transit corridor to CAR/ME/EU and for me trade is of essence and at cheaper rate to increase the living standards of land locked north India and if peace can be brought about, then two nuclear armed states don't end up being a threat to each other and others in the region and further and more importantly the two wont be used against each other for pushing other's interests, and its not just a win for India, if the trade was to go full steam ahead, Pakistan stands to gain multiple times more than India would so eventually its more a case of Pakistan eventually gaining a lot more.

For the above to come true, pakistan's military inc, pretty much what they are, needs to stop pointlessly psyching up its populace and using them to make their ends meet and these are the chaps who need to be reined in really as happened in turkey and if that is done all falls in to space but in the foreseeable future this is not happening.

But if they don't, and this is what is likely to happen, there is no need to be nice to them at all, no need to give them any benefits come what may and if that comes to the worst, so be it. The security and lives of people are of utmost importance and they dare not get going with this peace inc business over innocent blood where hundreds to thousands end up losing lives each year thanks to cross border sponsored terrorism.

Things as they stand, you can be rest assured with increasing US involvement, the peace process will continue even if it is for namesake. US's interest is in seeing India and Pakistan join hands with the US against the chinese which for them is the real threat so bring in anyone at the helm in India and the "peace" process will continue even if for the heck of it.

Vir Sanghvi's article on how the two are different: Vir Sanghvi

 

[Elmo]

I agree with the whole 50 years for toxic ideologies to be removed. Or rather a 100 years. It's like pretty much like the population growth sigmoid curve.

Karthic - I feel your thread title is misleading and the question will mostly be answered by people who were not part of the generation that saw partition happen.

Ethnicity wise, I myself am half-Gujrati. Only my nani and nana (both first cousins) moved to Pakistan in early 1960s - the rest of their family stayed behind in Indian Gujrat, and still do. At my maternal home, they'd talk in Gujrati and my nani - the simple Muslim woman of her times she was - till her death signed in Gujrati and all banks accepted that.

My uncle on a trip to Bombay fell in love and married a Hindu Brahmin from up north, she converted for him - and they live here now. They are a childless couple but are happily married for nearly 31 years.

When we talk of acceptance and go down to the level of the common man (forget terrorism and the other big words), I realised many did not care about Partition. It's over time that differences developed to such an extent - and any student of history and anthropology would know that it's the differences that form the basis for one-ness in a group.

Overall though the Gujrati side of my family was more open than the Punjabi side. And I think the narrowness holds true for Punjabis from both sides. They lost too much and suffered a lot and will take time for their wounds to heal.

In the long run, when I compare our family here to that in India, one can see they progressed economically here. Pakistan was a new country, a new place where one could make a mark with the ample opportunities. Not that people have not been ungrateful and blown loads of oppurtinities that came there way. But the ones in India - let's just say they never broke out of their cycle. Their life is more or less the same it was five decades back. Do they regret not moving here - well during the communal riots from what we heard from extended families, they did. Most of them were scared shit about their families and lives.

But i like to sayy, "shit happens but life moves on and one should to"

There is a lot of common ground and we should look at that. In the end we'll all die.

 

[Abir]

Bengalis suffered more than any ethnicity in subcontinent, they have been made pawn to Aligarh educated North Indian Muslims and Nehru, and then at the hand of West Pakistani Punjabis/Pathans. Almost 40% of total population in West Bengal can trace their root to erstwhile East Bengal, which shows the extend of migration the region had to bear because of political power-play between Jinnahs and Nehrus.