Weaknesses of Indian Navy

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by AUSTERLITZ, May 27, 2018.

  1. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ Regular Member

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    1.This is actually your assumption.If indeed during peacetime navies don't pack their ships with weapons then why is every other navy in the world in peacetime better armed pound for pound,32 sam vls in not good enough for a 7000 tonne ship.Why do chinese 52D have 64 universal vls plus 24 short range sam. Don't even go to type 55.Japanese, korean and american ships have 64- 96 vls.Even british have 48 asters.Do you think all these navies are fools and only IN is professional?We need minimum 48 barak-8s on these ships and preferably 64.

    The fact that IN persisted with just 32 baraks on future ships like p17a and p15b shows its lack of vision. Kamorta class too is oversized for its armament.That armament could be carried by 2000 tonne corvette.Just look at new russian admiral gorshkov class frigate .They put 16 oniks/brahmos in 5000 tonne frigate and we will have 8 brahmos in 7000 tonne p17a. Total Disappointment.

    2.Lets hope its short term problem.Because a few mines quietly laid by submarines on chokepoints or harbour entry regions can bottle down whole fleet.Remember even the mighty royal navy and its battleships were sunk at gallipoli by mines.

    3.I hope so.

    4.For surface ships its ok.But for submarines i'm not sure how good varunastra will be after its deployed. Perhaps better than old russian torpedos ,but with chinese subs entering IOR we should need seahake or black shark for the kalvaris.Just 100 such torpedos will be not very costly yet a big boost.But stupid MOD and its red tape.The german Seahake has more range and better target acquisition than varunastra. Shyena torpedo with pathetic 7km range i don't have much confidence in.

    5.I know RBU is a backup weapon.But its an increasingly obsolete one,so why are we putting it on our newest ships that will serve for 3-4 decades?Why not use something like paket anti torpedo /anti sub system ?RBU also takes up large spaces..if we used something like ASROC which can be launched from VLS with much larger range it would open up spaces for much more vls and increase sub hunting capability.Navy again lacking vision.Russia has moved on to paket and asroc style klub variant in vls combo.

    6.Talwar is not old one.It numerically the most important class.Delhi class has just basic shtil missile in arm launcher,always hearing of upgrades -still nothing.The ship itself has become obsolete.Also new shivalik class frigates also have this shit launcher which shows dumbness of IN.Shtil-1 arm launcher is shit,it will be overwhelmed by any saturation attack with 2-3 missiles.Unlike shivalik i,talwar doesn't even have barak-1 as backup.Its range also makes it useless against aircraft,and arm launcher has restricted angel of attack so even against that 1 missile or PGM its vulnerable if its not in its arc.No one knows if its effective against sea skimmers like barak. This shitty arm launcher is main reason why standard chinese type 054a frigate is better than ours.We cant match PLAN in numbers,so ship for ship we must be qualitatively better.Barak-8,elta AESA radar,ACTAS,brahmos are all better than anything PLAN has but we need to increase payload and also remove these obsolete missiles.We also need to make the most of existing platforms.The saryu and sukanya class OPVs with 2000 tonnes can easily carry 4-8 brahmos to act as missile attcak platforms if necessary.If brahmos is too costly use the klubs that are being replaced by brahmos on the older ships.
    If the godavaris are being decomissioned we should put their barak-1s on either the talwars or the kamortas.

    7.Planes can't always use full range of missile due to target acquisition problems.OTH shots are problematic due to earth's curvature interfering,as well as other issues.So having a long range SAM would be useful in the future.I agree its not an immediate priority ,but as china builds more and more carriers we will need to develop such a weapon.We can't match chinese carriers in number so we will have to compensate by land based aerial support from south india and andaman ,plus our carriers and long range missiles while brahmos from ships and sukhois and our subs attack from below.

    Above all we need to put more weapons on our ships.At least IN got ACTAS sonar.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  2. Kshithij

    Kshithij DharmaYoddha Senior Member

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    1) I would not worry more about ships being undergunned as there is plenty of space left for upgrades. So, there is room to put whatever we want. Also, prematurely setting up VLS in large number may be problematic as we need to incorporate things like Nirbhay missile, Barak-ER and longer range Brahmos in the future. So, it is better to keep room for upgrades than fill everything up right away.
    4) Varunastra is as good as USA torpedo Mark48. I don't see any reason to say Varunastra is bad. Why do you hate Varunastra so much? Shyena is small lightweight torpedo which is cheaper to make and for small range. That is not the main torpedo. It is secondary one. Also, I don't see why varunastra can't work with submarines.
    5) RBU6000 is automatically reloadable and one can get large number of salvo firing ability. The ASROC can't provide such capability.
    6) India has the ability to use VLS and the SHTIL launcher is not the only technology India has. As of now, there may be operational difficulty due to ShTIL but since India has the technology and has demonstrated it in Kolkata class carrier, the upgrade to VLS is just an upgrade away
     
  3. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    During the Libya campaign the Royal Navy ships only had a handful of missiles installed and that was in a combat zone. The reason France doesn't use 100+ VLS is that the cost of rotating those missiles every five years would be as much as we paid for the ship. It is better to have a 32 VLS frigate with all missiles loaded than having to skimp like the British with 48 VLS and less than a dozen missiles in a combat zone.
     
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  4. Kshithij

    Kshithij DharmaYoddha Senior Member

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    Can you explain further as to why UK did not load all the missiles before deployment for war when there was empty VLS available?
     
  5. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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  6. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ Regular Member

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    So you are saying chinese destroyers are packed with empty vls?If you have the vls in place even if they are empty you can easily fill them in wartime and go loaded,without the vls in place you don't even have the option.I don't understand why only IN has to have so few VLS,if this is a prudent practice why not every navy should follow this?Half empty but lots of vls in peacetime is better than few vls always because you have no flexibility and the option itself doesn't exist.
     
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  7. undeadmyrmidon

    undeadmyrmidon Regular Member

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    What about Paki Navy? Are there any ships or just speed boats.

    Chinks have never engaged in actual large scale naval warfare. Their idea of spamming vessels without tactics is like a HOI 4 noob trying his luck in 1948.
     
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  8. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ Regular Member

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    1.Whatever they might add 12 more vls for baraks would not be any problem.I agree on nirbhay part.Its either lack of foresight from IN or faulty design which has taken up too much space in the interior.I can't understand how russian navy can put 16 brahmos/oniks on their 5000 tonne frigate gorshkov class,but our 7000 tonne P17A future ship will have 8 brahmos?How is that justified?

    4.I don't hate varunastra.I'm glad we have a good indigenous torpedo,but its not on seahake level,which has its own sonar with active homing and better range.I would like the little edge over the chinese.Germans have been building torpedoes for a century,we have just started.Why not have a mix of both instead of putting all egges in one basket?A 100 torpedoes won't be very costly.

    5.ASROC has five to 10 times the range and better accuracy than rbu,and takes up almost no space.Combine with mareech/kavach and an anti torpedo system like paket and we would have a much more efficient system of ASW warfare along with heavy torpedo tubes.

    6.I keep hearing from 2012 that upgrade is coming,still nothing.I hoep it comes,we need it asap.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  9. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ Regular Member

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    Pak surface fleet is just a matter of launching 15-20 brahmos.A single kolkata class can sink their surface fleet.But we have to keep and eye out for their subs.

    Chinese fleet is going to become more and more of a problem as time passes and bigger ships like type 55 and carriers enter service in numbers.Their ships do not lack quality either,the newest ships are very good and must not be underestimated.Glad to see a fellow HOI4 player here.
     
  10. darshan978

    darshan978 Regular Member

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    bas itna hi?? aur google karke time barbaad karke khoj khoj ke nikaal navy ki ''weaknesses'' mere pet nahi bhara abhi tak
     
  11. john70

    john70 Regular Member

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    Hey there !! @AUSTERLITZ that’s a wonderful Wordpress blog on history and battles.
    loved it !!
     
  12. Steven Rogers

    Steven Rogers NaPakiRoaster Senior Member

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    Dont wanna go indetail but you're comparing Multirole ships with one standard job ships. British destroyers are air defence destroyers and have mediocre anti ship, land attack and anti sub capability. While Indian ships have land attack anti ship, anti sub and area defence capabilities, comparing the p17a and Gorshkov class is also an idiotic comparison, indian ships carry bigger torpedoes of 533mm vs 330mm of Russian frigate, also Indian ships carry two Multirole choppers compared to one on the Russian ships. Its another matter that some of these ships haven't got the equipment which are hampering their job at current such as Towed array sonar. INS shayadri was given the best ship award so in my point of view, Shivalik class are the best ships operated by the navy for Multirole ops, compare the endurance of Indian ships before calling them over weight and under armed, they havee endurance than Chinese naval ships, also Indian destroyers have COGAG propulsion for long endurance against Chinese which have CODOG propulsion. Their is a reason why Indian navy is called a blue water navy while Chinese are yet to stretch like a blue water navy despite the numerical superiority.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
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  13. Steven Rogers

    Steven Rogers NaPakiRoaster Senior Member

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    Yes its painfull to know that you're comparing an Indian destroyer with a
    frontline destroyer(Chinese ) has the efficiency and endurance of a frigate, not so robust ASW capability and can only take 1 helo at a time with small calibre torpedo , can understand the pain.
     
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  14. Steven Rogers

    Steven Rogers NaPakiRoaster Senior Member

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    Of different level, yeah with CODOG propulsion, so what is the endurance, from scs to the nearest Chinese base. Talking of grammar when yourself don't know the type of mistakes, since when "is" being typed in the place of "if" became a huge grammo mistake than a typo.
     
  15. undeadmyrmidon

    undeadmyrmidon Regular Member

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    TYPE 054A

    Type: Frigate
    Displacement: 4,053 tonnes (full) (CCTV report)
    Length: 134.1 m (440 ft) (CCTV report)
    Beam: 16 m (52 ft) (CCTV report)
    Propulsion: CODAD, 4 x Shaanxi 16 PA6 STC diesels, 5700 kW (7600+ hp @ 1084 rpm) each
    Speed: 27 knots estimated
    Range: 8,025 nautical miles (9,235 mi; 14,862 km) estimated
    Complement: 165
    Sensors and
    processing systems:
    Electronic warfare
    & decoys:
    Armament:
    • 1 × 32-cell VLS
    • 2 × 4 C-803 anti-ship / land attack cruise missiles
    • 1 × PJ26 76 mm dual purpose gun
    • 2 × Type 730 7-barrel 30 mm CIWS guns or Type 1130
    • 2 × 3 324mm Yu-7 ASW torpedolaunchers
    • 2 × 6 Type 87 240mm anti-submarine rocket launcher (36 rockets carried)
    • 2 × Type 726-4 18-tube decoy rocket launchers
    Aircraft carried: 1 Kamov Ka-28 'Helix' or Harbin Z-9C
    Aviation facilities: hangar

    TALWAR CLASS

    Type: Guided Missile Frigate
    Displacement:
    3,850 t (4,240 short tons) standard load

    4,035 t (4,448 short tons) full load
    Length: 124.8 m (409 ft 5 in)
    Beam: 15.2 m (49 ft 10 in)
    Draught: 4.2 m (13 ft 9 in)
    Installed power:
    • Zorya-Mashproekt M7N.1E propulsion plant
    • 2 × DS-71 cruise gas turbines
    • 9,850 shp (7,350 kW)
    • 2 × DT-59 boost gas turbines
    • 22,185 shp (16,543 kW)
    Propulsion: COGAG configuration
    Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph)
    Range:
    • 4,850 mi (4,210 nmi) at 14 kn (26 km/h; 16 mph)
    • 1,600 mi (1,400 nmi) at 30 kn (56 km/h; 35 mph)
    Endurance: 30 days
    Complement: 180 (18 officers)
    Sensors and
    processing systems:
    • 1 × 3Ts-25E Garpun-B surface search radar
    • 1 × MR-212/201-1 navigation radar
    • 1 × Kelvin Hughes Nucleus-2 6000A radar
    • 1 × Ladoga-ME-11356 intertial navigation and stabilisation
    • 1 × Fregat M2EM 3D circular scan radar
    • 1 × Ratep JSC 5P-10E Puma fire-control system
    • 1 × 3R14N-11356 fire-control system FCS
    • 4 × MR-90 Orekh
    Electronic warfare
    & decoys:
    • 1 × TK-25E-5 EWS
    • 1 × PK-10 ship-borne decoy launching systems
    • 4 × KT-216 decoy launchers
    Armament:
    • 24 × Shtil-1 medium range missiles
    • 8 × Igla-1E (SA-16)
    • 8 × VLS launched Klub, anti-ship cruise missiles (F40, F43, F44)
    • 8 × VLS launched BrahMos, anti-ship and land-attack cruise missiles (F45, F50, F51)
    • 1 × 100mm A-190E, naval gun
    • 2 × AK-630 CIWS (F45, F50, F51)
    • 2 × Kashtan CIWS (F40, F43, F44)
    • 2 × twin 533mm DTA-53-11356 torpedo tubes
    • 1 × RBU-6000 (RPK-8) rocket launcher
    Aircraft carried: 1 × Ka-28 (or) Ka-31 (or) Dhruv

    SHIVALIK CLASS

    Type: Guided-missile frigate
    Displacement: 6,200 tonnes (6,100 long tons; 6,800 short tons) full load
    Length: 142.5 m (468 ft)
    Beam: 16.9 m (55 ft)
    Draught: 4.5 m (15 ft)
    Installed power:
    • 2 × Pielstick 16 PA6 STC Diesel engines
    • 15,200 shp (11,300 kW)
    • 2 × GE LM2500+
    • 33,600 shp (25,100 kW)
    Propulsion: boost turbines in CODOGconfiguration.
    Speed:
    • 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph)
    • 22 knots (41 km/h; 25 mph) (diesel engines)
    Range: In excess of 5,000 nautical miles(9,000 km) at 18 kn (33 km/h)
    Complement: 257 (35 officers)
    Sensors and
    processing systems:
    • 1 × MR-760 Fregat M2EM 3-D radar
    • 4 × MR-90 Orekh radar
    • 1 × Elta EL/M-2238 STAR
    • 2 × Elta EL/M 2221 STGR
    • 1 × BEL APARNA
    • HUMSA-NG (hull-mounted sonar array)
    Electronic warfare
    & decoys:
    Armament:
    • Anti-air missiles:
    • 32-cell VLS launched Barak 1 missiles
    • 24 × Shtil-1 medium range missiles
    • Anti-ship/Land-attack missiles:
    • 8 × VLS launched Klub, anti-ship cruise missiles
    • or
    • 8 × VLS launched BrahMos, anti-ship and land-attack cruise missiles
    • Guns:
    • 1 × OTO Melara 76 mm naval gun
    • 2 × AK-630 CIWS
    • Anti-submarine warfare:
    • 2 × 2 DTA-53-956 torpedo launchers
    • 2 × RBU-6000 (RPK-8) rocket launchers
    Aircraft carried: 2 × HAL Dhruv or Sea King Mk. 42B helicopters.

    GRIGOROVICH CLASS (TALWAR CLASS 4 ON ORDER)

    Type: Frigate
    Displacement:
    • Standard: 3,620 tons
    • Full: 4,035 tons
    Length: 124.8 m (409 ft)
    Beam: 15.2 m (50 ft)
    Draught: 4.2 m (14 ft)
    Propulsion:
    • 2 shaft COGAG;
    • 2 DS-71 cruise gas turbines 8,450 shp (6,300 kW);
    • 2 DT-59 boost gas turbines 22,000 shp (16,000 kW) ;
    • Total: 60,900 shp (45,400 kW)
    • or M90FR FRU 20 MW (max 25 28) M70FRU 14 MW , M70FRU2 6 8 MW
    Speed: 30 kn (56 km/h; 35 mph)
    Range: 4,850 nmi (8,980 km; 5,580 mi) at 14 kn (26 km/h; 16 mph)
    Endurance: 30 days
    Complement: 200
    Sensors and
    processing systems:
    • Air search radar: Fregat M2EM
    • Surface search radar: 3Ts-25E Garpun-B, MR-212/201-1, Nucleus-2 6000A
    • Fire control radar: JSC 5P-10E Puma FCS, 3R14N-11356 FCS, MR-90 Orekh SAM FCS
    Electronic warfare
    & decoys:
    • EW Suite: TK-25E-5;
    • Countermeasures:
    • 4 × KT-216
    Armament:
    Aircraft carried: 1 Ka-27PL or Ka-31 helicopter

    Chink frigates barely match Talwar class. Shivalik class is a wet dream for them.
     
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  16. Steven Rogers

    Steven Rogers NaPakiRoaster Senior Member

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    Yeah and without endurance you're going to fight in an contested environment, so what Chinese ships are going to do, firing Chinese made missiles scs to Indian navy ships in Indian ocean, without endurance those ships are good off to their coasts only. Probably you're happy with those fanboyotic comparison which takes paper specs of the two and compare, so far i know Indian naval ships have brahmos missile which has range over 450km for antiship/land attack mission, hardly any Chinese missile have that range in the anti ship missile.
     
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  17. Steven Rogers

    Steven Rogers NaPakiRoaster Senior Member

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    That really shows the absence of cerebral cells in adequate numbers. Maldives, Sri Lankan ports are not available to China for military base, they are assured for trades, probably Pakistan which is an official bitch of china could sell her soul but at the cost of their already fucked up country. All that "theory" of yours went in vain, due to you're dead cerebral cells and absence of all of your limbic system. Land launched land attack missile is your answer for an antiship missiles, now you seriously need some brain cells. And then comes the old shit YJ18 which can't maintain its speed neither guarantees a range.
     
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  18. Manish Khan

    Manish Khan Regular Member

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    :india:let's just say our aircraft carrier is still ski-jump not the catapult-style, this may has big limitation to our new generation aircraft.besides,don't forget the influence of the corruption.:india::india::india:
     
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  19. Jumbo

    Jumbo Regular Member

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    As per the thread title ----> Weaknesses of Indian Navy

    Not enough submarines.

    That is the biggest weakness of Indian Navy.

    Correct me if I am wrong.
     
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  20. Blood Rain

    Blood Rain Regular Member

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    Not the only one but a significant one never the less.
     

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