Weaknesses of Indian Navy

AUSTERLITZ

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From what i see -

1.Undergunned ships.
Kolkata class with just 32 barak despite more space.Same with vishakapatnam.Just compare with chinese and american destroyers.Same with kamorta class - frigate size with poor armament.Now they are also arming P17A with 32 baraks.They should have 48 baraks at least if not 64 or something with quadpacked ability.How come russia puts 16 oniks/yakhont on 4500 tonne gorshkov frigate but we can't put more than 8 brahmos on shivalik at 6200 tonnes.Wtf.

2.Lack of Minesweepers
.
Cancelled the tender.Now we are facing potential enemy submarines with no real minesweeper force.A sad state.

3.Lack of Helicopters.
Tender after failed tender.Helos are being rotated and cannibalized,whats the point of building ships with 2 helo spots if u don't even have 1/3rd available strength.At least our ships are now getting ATLAS elektronik active towed array sonar,otherwise our ASW would have been totally toothless.

4.Lack of modern torpedoes.
I don't trust russian torpedoes that much.Scorpenes and 209s are doing with older torpedo.No black shark or seahake still due to stupid procurement mess.Varunastra and mk54 are good news but only for ships and aircraft.

5.Obsession with RBU-6000.
Why put 2 of these in every big ship?IN thinking seems totally obsolete.Russians themselves have moved on to paket.Chinese and americans use much longer ranged vls weapons like ASROC.Its only good for short range torpedo defense,if anyone thinks they can kill subs with 5km rocket launcher they are delusional.Should get a paket or asroc type system soon.

6.Shtil-1 arm launcher.
As far as I see the talwar class ships are utterly useless against saturation attacks,the shtil-1s are launched via arm launcher which takes 4-6 seconds to reload and fire after each shot.Navy still doesn't replace them with VLS.Replace these and the others on the delhi class ASAP.

7.Bigger range SAMs needed -
90 km barak-8 is a great sam for taking out cruise missiles and PGMs but i doubt how effective that range is against aircraft.We need to increase range to atleast 150 km or procure something equal to US long range SM series,russian navalized s-400 or chinese equivalents.This may not be a immediate priority but will become one as china adds more carriers.

Am i wrong on any of these points?
 

indus

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A novice query. Has the Navy decided over the inported torpedo controversy. I guess BlackShark was cancelled and Varunastra is not yet inducted.
 

nongaddarliberal

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From what i see -

1.Undergunned ships.
Kolkata class with just 32 barak despite more space.Same with vishakapatnam.Just compare with chinese and american destroyers.Same with kamorta class - frigate size with poor armament.Now they are also arming P17A with 32 baraks.They should have 48 baraks at least if not 64 or something with quadpacked ability.How come russia puts 16 oniks/yakhont on 4500 tonne gorshkov frigate but we can't put more than 8 brahmos on shivalik at 6200 tonnes.Wtf.

2.Lack of Minesweepers
.
Cancelled the tender.Now we are facing potential enemy submarines with no real minesweeper force.A sad state.

3.Lack of Helicopters.
Tender after failed tender.Helos are being rotated and cannibalized,whats the point of building ships with 2 helo spots if u don't even have 1/3rd available strength.At least our ships are now getting ATLAS elektronik active towed array sonar,otherwise our ASW would have been totally toothless.

4.Lack of modern torpedoes.
I don't trust russian torpedoes that much.Scorpenes and 209s are doing with older torpedo.No black shark or seahake still due to stupid procurement mess.Varunastra and mk54 are good news but only for ships and aircraft.

5.Obsession with RBU-6000.
Why put 2 of these in every big ship?IN thinking seems totally obsolete.Russians themselves have moved on to paket.Chinese and americans use much longer ranged vls weapons like ASROC.Its only good for short range torpedo defense,if anyone thinks they can kill subs with 5km rocket launcher they are delusional.Should get a paket or asroc type system soon.

6.Shtil-1 arm launcher.
As far as I see the talwar class ships are utterly useless against saturation attacks,the shtil-1s are launched via arm launcher which takes 4-6 seconds to reload and fire after each shot.Navy still doesn't replace them with VLS.Replace these and the others on the delhi class ASAP.

7.Bigger range SAMs needed -
90 km barak-8 is a great sam for taking out cruise missiles and PGMs but i doubt how effective that range is against aircraft.We need to increase range to atleast 150 km or procure something equal to US long range SM series,russian navalized s-400 or chinese equivalents.This may not be a immediate priority but will become one as china adds more carriers.

Am i wrong on any of these points?
I have to agree with undergunned ships and the need for longer range air defence. The American, Chinese and Japanese destroyers (and pretty much any AEGIS destroyer) have much longer range air defences. Even the British destroyers have an advantage with their Aster missiles. And when you look at the total number of missiles they carry, it is far more than our biggest destroyers. But the rationale for this which is quoted is that the navy wants to leave space for upgrades. Another problem is that Brahmos are very big missiles which need special VLS cells of their own, and you can't have too many of them like Tomahawks. Perhaps if they can create a universal VLS system, where each cell can pack either 1 Brahmos, or 2 Nirbhay, or 4 future long range Air defence missiles, then it would bridge the gap with other big destroyers. Basically our navy has the best anti ship missile loadout in the world, but land attack and air defence are behind some other navies.
 

binayak95

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From what i see -

1.Undergunned ships.
Kolkata class with just 32 barak despite more space.Same with vishakapatnam.Just compare with chinese and american destroyers.Same with kamorta class - frigate size with poor armament.Now they are also arming P17A with 32 baraks.They should have 48 baraks at least if not 64 or something with quadpacked ability.How come russia puts 16 oniks/yakhont on 4500 tonne gorshkov frigate but we can't put more than 8 brahmos on shivalik at 6200 tonnes.Wtf.

2.Lack of Minesweepers
.
Cancelled the tender.Now we are facing potential enemy submarines with no real minesweeper force.A sad state.

3.Lack of Helicopters.
Tender after failed tender.Helos are being rotated and cannibalized,whats the point of building ships with 2 helo spots if u don't even have 1/3rd available strength.At least our ships are now getting ATLAS elektronik active towed array sonar,otherwise our ASW would have been totally toothless.

4.Lack of modern torpedoes.
I don't trust russian torpedoes that much.Scorpenes and 209s are doing with older torpedo.No black shark or seahake still due to stupid procurement mess.Varunastra and mk54 are good news but only for ships and aircraft.

5.Obsession with RBU-6000.
Why put 2 of these in every big ship?IN thinking seems totally obsolete.Russians themselves have moved on to paket.Chinese and americans use much longer ranged vls weapons like ASROC.Its only good for short range torpedo defense,if anyone thinks they can kill subs with 5km rocket launcher they are delusional.Should get a paket or asroc type system soon.

6.Shtil-1 arm launcher.
As far as I see the talwar class ships are utterly useless against saturation attacks,the shtil-1s are launched via arm launcher which takes 4-6 seconds to reload and fire after each shot.Navy still doesn't replace them with VLS.Replace these and the others on the delhi class ASAP.

7.Bigger range SAMs needed -
90 km barak-8 is a great sam for taking out cruise missiles and PGMs but i doubt how effective that range is against aircraft.We need to increase range to atleast 150 km or procure something equal to US long range SM series,russian navalized s-400 or chinese equivalents.This may not be a immediate priority but will become one as china adds more carriers.

Am i wrong on any of these points?
Wrong about several points.

RBU 6000 isnt meant to attack subs. If an enemy subs get into that range, youre already dead. Its meant for Naval Gunfire Support (secondary) and to destroy incoming torpedoes!

Shtil 1 arm launchers will be replaced with VLS during MLUs.

Longer range SAMs, sure. But how do you know the exact range of Barak 8?

About the minesweepers. Having dedicated Mine Warfare Ships would be great, but all OPVs are capable of both deploying and defusing Mines. So, not that great a priority over say, helos or subs.

And no, none of our ships are undergunned. There's more than what meets the eye. Check the recent DefExpo pics if you want to know more.
 

Kshithij

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From what i see -

1.Undergunned ships.
Kolkata class with just 32 barak despite more space.Same with vishakapatnam.Just compare with chinese and american destroyers.Same with kamorta class - frigate size with poor armament.Now they are also arming P17A with 32 baraks.They should have 48 baraks at least if not 64 or something with quadpacked ability.How come russia puts 16 oniks/yakhont on 4500 tonne gorshkov frigate but we can't put more than 8 brahmos on shivalik at 6200 tonnes.Wtf.

2.Lack of Minesweepers
.
Cancelled the tender.Now we are facing potential enemy submarines with no real minesweeper force.A sad state.

3.Lack of Helicopters.
Tender after failed tender.Helos are being rotated and cannibalized,whats the point of building ships with 2 helo spots if u don't even have 1/3rd available strength.At least our ships are now getting ATLAS elektronik active towed array sonar,otherwise our ASW would have been totally toothless.

4.Lack of modern torpedoes.
I don't trust russian torpedoes that much.Scorpenes and 209s are doing with older torpedo.No black shark or seahake still due to stupid procurement mess.Varunastra and mk54 are good news but only for ships and aircraft.

5.Obsession with RBU-6000.
Why put 2 of these in every big ship?IN thinking seems totally obsolete.Russians themselves have moved on to paket.Chinese and americans use much longer ranged vls weapons like ASROC.Its only good for short range torpedo defense,if anyone thinks they can kill subs with 5km rocket launcher they are delusional.Should get a paket or asroc type system soon.

6.Shtil-1 arm launcher.
As far as I see the talwar class ships are utterly useless against saturation attacks,the shtil-1s are launched via arm launcher which takes 4-6 seconds to reload and fire after each shot.Navy still doesn't replace them with VLS.Replace these and the others on the delhi class ASAP.

7.Bigger range SAMs needed -
90 km barak-8 is a great sam for taking out cruise missiles and PGMs but i doubt how effective that range is against aircraft.We need to increase range to atleast 150 km or procure something equal to US long range SM series,russian navalized s-400 or chinese equivalents.This may not be a immediate priority but will become one as china adds more carriers.

Am i wrong on any of these points?
  1. India having undergunned ship is your assumption. During peace time, when you don't see enemy build up, there is no need for overpacking with guns. Indian ships are capable of packing heavy heat when needed by quick upgrades. It was seen in 1971 war whereby India packed heavy heat on its ships. So, there is no problem of undergunning
  2. Minesweeper is a long term requirement and India wants to build technology base for its manufacture rather than import blindly. If push comes to the shove, India can make older generation minesweepers on its own. So, I don't see any reason to import minesweeper. This is a hole in the short duration but is of more strategic than actual problem
  3. Helicopter project - IMRH was abandoned by UPA in 2008. The project is back on course and will be ready by 2025. Unless there is an urgent need, importing is meaningless. It is better to rotate existing choppers than being hasty and importing. This problem will be solved by 2025.
  4. India has modern torpedoes. Indiahas made Varunastra and Shyena, both of which are in service with surface ships. The submarine version is being made by altering Varunastra and is either completed or will be complete soon. Both of these torpedoes are quite modern
  5. The RBU6000 is a very cheap rocket and is meant for saturation attack in the last moment. It is a final backup rather than the main weapon.
  6. Talwar class frigate is an old one. It has not yet been upgraded yet.But the modern frigates don't have a problem like this. So, it is unjustified to generalise problems of one set of ships to the entire navy
  7. The Barak-8 has 100km range but is not good enough for planes. It does not have the maneuverability needed. But, the alternative is to use a heavy SAM like sm6 of which each missile weighs 1.5ton. Though, the problem with this approach is that despite the long range SAM, the aircrafts will still retain edge of superiority over the Naval SAMs. The aircrafts can launch weapons like exocet, Harpoon which has range of 150km+. Even if the SAM has a range of 200km, the planes will have ample opportunity to make a run after firing the ASh missile. Su30 can, for example, launch Brahmos from 300-400km and the enemy will not be able to do anything to the plane. So, at the end of the day, the ship will never be able to destroy enemy planes even with longer range SAM but only end up wasting more space and adding unnecessary weight. The best bet for ships to stay safe from enemy aircrafts is to stay away from land until enemy air assets are destroyed by bombardment by aircrats of aircraft carrier or airforce and by missile strikes.
 

undeadmyrmidon

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  1. India having undergunned ship is your assumption. During peace time, when you don't see enemy build up, there is no need for overpacking with guns. Indian ships are capable of packing heavy heat when needed by quick upgrades. It was seen in 1971 war whereby India packed heavy heat on its ships. So, there is no problem of undergunning
  2. Minesweeper is a long term requirement and India wants to build technology base for its manufacture rather than import blindly. If push comes to the shove, India can make older generation minesweepers on its own. So, I don't see any reason to import minesweeper. This is a hole in the short duration but is of more strategic than actual problem
  3. Helicopter project - IMRH was abandoned by UPA in 2008. The project is back on course and will be ready by 2025. Unless there is an urgent need, importing is meaningless. It is better to rotate existing choppers than being hasty and importing. This problem will be solved by 2025.
  4. India has modern torpedoes. Indiahas made Varunastra and Shyena, both of which are in service with surface ships. The submarine version is being made by altering Varunastra and is either completed or will be complete soon. Both of these torpedoes are quite modern
  5. The RBU6000 is a very cheap rocket and is meant for saturation attack in the last moment. It is a final backup rather than the main weapon.
  6. Talwar class frigate is an old one. It has not yet been upgraded yet.But the modern frigates don't have a problem like this. So, it is unjustified to generalise problems of one set of ships to the entire navy
  7. The Barak-8 has 100km range but is not good enough for planes. It does not have the maneuverability needed. But, the alternative is to use a heavy SAM like sm6 of which each missile weighs 1.5ton. Though, the problem with this approach is that despite the long range SAM, the aircrafts will still retain edge of superiority over the Naval SAMs. The aircrafts can launch weapons like exocet, Harpoon which has range of 150km+. Even if the SAM has a range of 200km, the planes will have ample opportunity to make a run after firing the ASh missile. Su30 can, for example, launch Brahmos from 300-400km and the enemy will not be able to do anything to the plane. So, at the end of the day, the ship will never be able to destroy enemy planes even with longer range SAM but only end up wasting more space and adding unnecessary weight. The best bet for ships to stay safe from enemy aircrafts is to stay away from land until enemy air assets are destroyed by bombardment by aircrats of aircraft carrier or airforce and by missile strikes.
Three points:

1) RBU 6000 is a ASROC weapon for anti submarine and anti torpedo usage. It will stay till Indian Navy gets universal VLS. A model was shown during DefExpo 2018.

2) Barak 8 has 90 - 100 km range and was primarily designed for Yakhont and Brahmostype missiles. It has a TVC and pulse engine that allows superb maneuverability for both cruise missiles and planes. Barak 8 ER will have 150+ km range.

3) Talwar Class is our workhorse Frigate fleet. It is made for medium range (60 km) AD and surface and anti submarine warfare. New ones U/C will have VLS for Shtil 1 missiles.
 

Kshithij

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Three points:

1) RBU 6000 is a ASROC weapon for anti submarine and anti torpedo usage. It will stay till Indian Navy gets universal VLS. A model was shown during DefExpo 2018.

2) Barak 8 has 90 - 100 km range and was primarily designed for Yakhont and Brahmostype missiles. It has a TVC and pulse engine that allows superb maneuverability for both cruise missiles and planes. Barak 8 ER will have 150+ km range.

3) Talwar Class is our workhorse Frigate fleet. It is made for medium range (60 km) AD and surface and anti submarine warfare. New ones U/C will have VLS for Shtil 1 missiles.
You are mistaken about RBU6000. It is unguided and does not need VLS. RBU600 is a last line of defence, something like a side-arm. It is meant to be cheap, lightweight (100kg) and to be fired in salvos of 12 each.

Barak-8 has dual pulsed motor and can maneuver at the end stage when the missile is close to the plane. But the problem is that the plane can detect incoming missile and completely prevent it from coming close. The Barak-8 can't maneuver midcourse. It can maneuver in the initial stage to set the direction and at final stage to hit the target. That is why it is purely for anti-cruise missile role. Barak-8 won't work against planes beyond about 20-30km.
 

undeadmyrmidon

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You are mistaken about RBU6000. It is unguided and does not need VLS. RBU600 is a last line of defence, something like a side-arm. It is meant to be cheap, lightweight (100kg) and to be fired in salvos of 12 each.

Barak-8 has dual pulsed motor and can maneuver at the end stage when the missile is close to the plane. But the problem is that the plane can detect incoming missile and completely prevent it from coming close. The Barak-8 can't maneuver midcourse. It can maneuver in the initial stage to set the direction and at final stage to hit the target. That is why it is purely for anti-cruise missile role. Barak-8 won't work against planes beyond about 20-30km.
I know RBU 6000 is not VLS. Its a weapon for ASW like hedgehog of UK. It can have limited guidance when using 90r round. VLS shown in DefExpo 2018 can accommodate a future ASROC.

Barak 8 can easily target planes as all SAM follow terminal intercept. It has 2 way data link for this very purpose. Planes behave like cruise missile and more than 1 is fired for greater pk.
 

Kshithij

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I know RBU 6000 is not VLS. Its a weapon for ASW like hedgehog of UK. It can have limited guidance when using 90r round. VLS shown in DefExpo 2018 can accommodate a future ASROC.

Barak 8 can easily target planes as all SAM follow terminal intercept. It has 2 way data link for this very purpose. Planes behave like cruise missile and more than 1 is fired for greater pk.
Planes don't behave like cruise missiles. planes can detect an incoming sam due to radar. Then they can maneuver out of the way so that the missile does not come close to have the terminal intercept. Plane have consciousness and self awareness. Even if more than 1 fired, they still are not good enough. SAMs like Akash which have sustained RAMJET is what is the best suited ones for interception. There is a reason why SM6 uses 1.5ton missile whereas barak-8 uses 275kg missile
 

undeadmyrmidon

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Planes don't behave like cruise missiles. planes can detect an incoming sam due to radar. Then they can maneuver out of the way so that the missile does not come close to have the terminal intercept. Plane have consciousness and self awareness. Even if more than 1 fired, they still are not good enough. SAMs like Akash which have sustained RAMJET is what is the best suited ones for interception. There is a reason why SM6 uses 1.5ton missile whereas barak-8 uses 275kg missile
Proximity warhead is what matters. The range and the warhead plus high g maneuverability of missile via datalink will ensure Barak 8 is an excellent SAM. Weight of missile is just for sensors and propulsion systems.
 

binayak95

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Care to elaborate on that one? Is the publicly proclaimed loadout of 8/16 brahmos (frigate/destroyer) and 32 Barak 8 not the real loadout of the ships?
Let's just say that the present configuration is far from complete (for the P17 and P15A ships and all future ships).
 

HariPrasad-1

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From what i see -

1.Undergunned ships.
Kolkata class with just 32 barak despite more space.Same with vishakapatnam.Just compare with chinese and american destroyers.Same with kamorta class - frigate size with poor armament.Now they are also arming P17A with 32 baraks.They should have 48 baraks at least if not 64 or something with quadpacked ability.How come russia puts 16 oniks/yakhont on 4500 tonne gorshkov frigate but we can't put more than 8 brahmos on shivalik at 6200 tonnes.Wtf.

2.Lack of Minesweepers
.
Cancelled the tender.Now we are facing potential enemy submarines with no real minesweeper force.A sad state.

3.Lack of Helicopters.
Tender after failed tender.Helos are being rotated and cannibalized,whats the point of building ships with 2 helo spots if u don't even have 1/3rd available strength.At least our ships are now getting ATLAS elektronik active towed array sonar,otherwise our ASW would have been totally toothless.

4.Lack of modern torpedoes.
I don't trust russian torpedoes that much.Scorpenes and 209s are doing with older torpedo.No black shark or seahake still due to stupid procurement mess.Varunastra and mk54 are good news but only for ships and aircraft.

5.Obsession with RBU-6000.
Why put 2 of these in every big ship?IN thinking seems totally obsolete.Russians themselves have moved on to paket.Chinese and americans use much longer ranged vls weapons like ASROC.Its only good for short range torpedo defense,if anyone thinks they can kill subs with 5km rocket launcher they are delusional.Should get a paket or asroc type system soon.

6.Shtil-1 arm launcher.
As far as I see the talwar class ships are utterly useless against saturation attacks,the shtil-1s are launched via arm launcher which takes 4-6 seconds to reload and fire after each shot.Navy still doesn't replace them with VLS.Replace these and the others on the delhi class ASAP.

7.Bigger range SAMs needed -
90 km barak-8 is a great sam for taking out cruise missiles and PGMs but i doubt how effective that range is against aircraft.We need to increase range to atleast 150 km or procure something equal to US long range SM series,russian navalized s-400 or chinese equivalents.This may not be a immediate priority but will become one as china adds more carriers.

Am i wrong on any of these points?
Where is amphibious vehicle?

Ex SAM, the long rage SAM of LRSAM variant is coming up.
 

Kshithij

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Sounds nice, but where are you getting this info from? I haven't heard of any such plans. A few links would be nice.
I guess, the loadout of any military vehicle will depend upon the requirement. The maximum loadout will be the requirement in a full scale war and at that time, the number of torpedoes, SAM and AShM will depend only on the space available. If 1000 missiles can be fit in, then that many will be fit in. There is no point limiting the number of missiles to be carried except for economic purpose like fuel and maintenance efficiency or to hide from the enemy till the right time
 

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