- Joined
- Aug 25, 2010
- Messages
- 10,809
- Likes
- 4,619
and both will stick knife into uncle sam when the moment arises.
We salute Pak fight against terror: Israel
- Thread starter ejazr
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2010
- Messages
- 1,662
- Likes
- 526
Israel is much more trust worthy than many other nations. They know that India and Israel share many common enemies. In a vast swath of land starting from Red Sea to Bay of Bengal, the only two countries with consistent democratic government are India and Israel. They are also secular in nature, economically and technologically developing and are natural allies.
Whatever noises Israel make are empty pledges to please the Nuke holding Paks.
Whatever noises Israel make are empty pledges to please the Nuke holding Paks.
Well we can only guess at the need for Israel to remark on Pakistan's WoT, something that does not directly affect Israel. But let me just highlight a few points.
Israel is actually is defined as a Jewish state in its constitution and recognises four other religions other than Judaism-Christianity, Islam, Bhai, and Druze.
Indian and Israeli interests don't always coincide as is expected. But in some cases, they actually come in conflict as well. Let me just discuss three main point although there are other examples that can be highlighted
(1) Iraq under Saddam was a problem for Israel, but we had excellent relations and had a pretty strong footprint related to oil and other facilities. India had no competition from western oil companies and was given major concessions as well. Moreover, Iraq openly supported India on Kashmir had uneasy relationship with Pakistan and the NDA led govt. under Vajpayee actually made the most progress in cementing close relationship with Iraq. The Iraq war which was strongly supported by Israel was a disaster for Indian interests in the region. Vajpayee did not reject US intervention in Iraq openly just because of some pacifist nature or vote bank politics, but because the war would have led to a disaster for Indian energy companies. And it was. Post Iraq, the western companies have taken up the major chunks of oil contracts and concessions. And China now has a bigger role than India in Iraq. While it will take years for India to feel out the ruling govt. and even then the Iraqi govt. might not take as strong a pro-Indian stand on vital issues like Kashmir like Saddam Hussein did.
This ofcourse does not even come to measure to the scale of problems this created in the Af-Pak theatre. As per Indian interests, the US should have had a laser sharp focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan and the Iraq war completely diverted the attention allowing post-Taliban buildup and giving a free hand to Musharraf to continue its dual policy on supporting extremist organisations
(2) Now lets have alook at Iran, Israel again considers Iran a mortal threat and has been lobbying for strikes against Iran by the US and the sanctioning is also part of this. But this goes against Indian interests. 15% of our energy/oil supplies come from Iran. And to establish a viable trade route to Central Asia and Afghanistan which will be necessary to establish leverage in the S. Asia/Central Asia region Iran is an important component of having that land route. The sanctions have put Indian investments almost to a standstill. While the Chinese still continue to exert their influence there. It doesn't seem that the US has anymore appetite to launch a war, but this an example of how Israel and India have conflicting strategic interests on important matters.
(3) And finally, we have to have a clarity on which type of extremist groups are targeting India. Its easy to say all terrorists are the same but not zeroing in on the profile of anti-India terrorists will result in over-reach and just wate of resources as well as making more enemies than we would have to. Anti-India terrorists groups are mostly Pakistani based. We have a few that are based on Burmese land as well as in Bangladesh. A few Afghans have also been known to have made it to Kashmir in the early insurgency years. But almost no Arab terrorist groups have ever targeted India. Even in video messages by Al Qaeda and other groups, India is never mentioned at all. On the other hand Israel is never targeted by terrorist groups in S. Asia. Despite all the rhetoric, anti-Israeli terrorists are exclusively Arab both of the secular/nationalist and more recently post-1980s of the Islamist variety. Also while Israel does not want to make the 3 million or so Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza Israeli citizens and give them equal rights, India's position is the opposite in most cases. The GoI wants Kashmiris, Naga and other NE rebels as well as Naxalites to join the democratic process and become equal Indian citizens as long as they eschew violence and use constitutional methods to achive their aim.So the methods and tactics and grand strategy has to take this important distinction into account and will differ.
So what does this mean, that we should keep Indian interests as paramount without ideological blinkers. We should try to convince Israel to see our point of view but if there is a difference then Indian national interests should decide the way forward. And this would be expected of Israel as well. For example, Iran is a threat to Israel and notwhitstanding India's relationship with Iran, it will do anything to undermine Iran as it is in its best interest to do so even if it may have a negative impact on India's influence in the region.
Infact, while Arab countries like UAE and Syria have come out for full support for India's permanant UNSC seat at the highest level of office, Israel has still opted for a cautious approach neither approving nor denying support(correct me if I'm wrong, I'm basing my opinion on this report here).
Besides a recent Gallup poll about India's leadership in Middle East and what the public thinks about India indicated that GCC countries have a more postive outlook towards India than any other country in the Middle East including Israel. Its not very decisive because there are large percentages of unknown but it gives an idea of the trend which shows which countries are more comfortable with India's leadership role. Also its not about being pro-India or anti-India but more to do about how influential India's leadership is on the world stage and wether you approve or disapprove of it. Full poll here
Israel is actually is defined as a Jewish state in its constitution and recognises four other religions other than Judaism-Christianity, Islam, Bhai, and Druze.
Indian and Israeli interests don't always coincide as is expected. But in some cases, they actually come in conflict as well. Let me just discuss three main point although there are other examples that can be highlighted
(1) Iraq under Saddam was a problem for Israel, but we had excellent relations and had a pretty strong footprint related to oil and other facilities. India had no competition from western oil companies and was given major concessions as well. Moreover, Iraq openly supported India on Kashmir had uneasy relationship with Pakistan and the NDA led govt. under Vajpayee actually made the most progress in cementing close relationship with Iraq. The Iraq war which was strongly supported by Israel was a disaster for Indian interests in the region. Vajpayee did not reject US intervention in Iraq openly just because of some pacifist nature or vote bank politics, but because the war would have led to a disaster for Indian energy companies. And it was. Post Iraq, the western companies have taken up the major chunks of oil contracts and concessions. And China now has a bigger role than India in Iraq. While it will take years for India to feel out the ruling govt. and even then the Iraqi govt. might not take as strong a pro-Indian stand on vital issues like Kashmir like Saddam Hussein did.
This ofcourse does not even come to measure to the scale of problems this created in the Af-Pak theatre. As per Indian interests, the US should have had a laser sharp focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan and the Iraq war completely diverted the attention allowing post-Taliban buildup and giving a free hand to Musharraf to continue its dual policy on supporting extremist organisations
(2) Now lets have alook at Iran, Israel again considers Iran a mortal threat and has been lobbying for strikes against Iran by the US and the sanctioning is also part of this. But this goes against Indian interests. 15% of our energy/oil supplies come from Iran. And to establish a viable trade route to Central Asia and Afghanistan which will be necessary to establish leverage in the S. Asia/Central Asia region Iran is an important component of having that land route. The sanctions have put Indian investments almost to a standstill. While the Chinese still continue to exert their influence there. It doesn't seem that the US has anymore appetite to launch a war, but this an example of how Israel and India have conflicting strategic interests on important matters.
(3) And finally, we have to have a clarity on which type of extremist groups are targeting India. Its easy to say all terrorists are the same but not zeroing in on the profile of anti-India terrorists will result in over-reach and just wate of resources as well as making more enemies than we would have to. Anti-India terrorists groups are mostly Pakistani based. We have a few that are based on Burmese land as well as in Bangladesh. A few Afghans have also been known to have made it to Kashmir in the early insurgency years. But almost no Arab terrorist groups have ever targeted India. Even in video messages by Al Qaeda and other groups, India is never mentioned at all. On the other hand Israel is never targeted by terrorist groups in S. Asia. Despite all the rhetoric, anti-Israeli terrorists are exclusively Arab both of the secular/nationalist and more recently post-1980s of the Islamist variety. Also while Israel does not want to make the 3 million or so Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza Israeli citizens and give them equal rights, India's position is the opposite in most cases. The GoI wants Kashmiris, Naga and other NE rebels as well as Naxalites to join the democratic process and become equal Indian citizens as long as they eschew violence and use constitutional methods to achive their aim.So the methods and tactics and grand strategy has to take this important distinction into account and will differ.
So what does this mean, that we should keep Indian interests as paramount without ideological blinkers. We should try to convince Israel to see our point of view but if there is a difference then Indian national interests should decide the way forward. And this would be expected of Israel as well. For example, Iran is a threat to Israel and notwhitstanding India's relationship with Iran, it will do anything to undermine Iran as it is in its best interest to do so even if it may have a negative impact on India's influence in the region.
Infact, while Arab countries like UAE and Syria have come out for full support for India's permanant UNSC seat at the highest level of office, Israel has still opted for a cautious approach neither approving nor denying support(correct me if I'm wrong, I'm basing my opinion on this report here).
Besides a recent Gallup poll about India's leadership in Middle East and what the public thinks about India indicated that GCC countries have a more postive outlook towards India than any other country in the Middle East including Israel. Its not very decisive because there are large percentages of unknown but it gives an idea of the trend which shows which countries are more comfortable with India's leadership role. Also its not about being pro-India or anti-India but more to do about how influential India's leadership is on the world stage and wether you approve or disapprove of it. Full poll here
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2009
- Messages
- 24,324
- Likes
- 11,757
This could be in a tit for tat that's been going on between india and israel. I remember Israel had something to say on Kashmir and then India paid back the favor to Israel and now this from Israel. Expect an Indian byte on Palestine now. What's it all going to achieve is anybody's guess.
Ejaz, you are bang on with your assessment on divergence of indian and israeli interests. India has lost all the gains made by good hardwork on the diplomatic front building on historic and traditional ties.
Its going to be difficult for india to balance its ties with the US and also maintain its traditional relations. India has to extract a lot more from the US in return for all the support it is giving by sacrificing some of its very important and strategic relations.
Ejaz, you are bang on with your assessment on divergence of indian and israeli interests. India has lost all the gains made by good hardwork on the diplomatic front building on historic and traditional ties.
Its going to be difficult for india to balance its ties with the US and also maintain its traditional relations. India has to extract a lot more from the US in return for all the support it is giving by sacrificing some of its very important and strategic relations.
Neil
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2010
- Messages
- 2,818
- Likes
- 3,546
Ejaz bhai....realy a nice analysis about are strategic interest and problems in middle east ....
but a little out of context question.....how come we have good relations with Iraq[under saddam] and Iran at the same time.??..i mean they were sworn rivals and also during NDA led govt we had asked Iran to represent us in OIC didnt we...??
but a little out of context question.....how come we have good relations with Iraq[under saddam] and Iran at the same time.??..i mean they were sworn rivals and also during NDA led govt we had asked Iran to represent us in OIC didnt we...??
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2009
- Messages
- 24,324
- Likes
- 11,757
Its called diplomacy................
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2009
- Messages
- 514
- Likes
- 9
We must remember one thing that it was Israel along with Russia & France that did not condemn India's 1998 Pokhran-II tests. The Conditions around Israel are not that gloomy presently, be it Turkey or Egypt, its opening to the Arab world are more or less closing doors.
Firstly, The Israeli military exports with India are in Billions of USD, which by no way the Israelis can effort to compromise.
Secondly, Pakistan's religious political parties and militant group such as Jamaat-e-Islami, Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam and Lashkar-e-Taiba fierecely oppose any relationship with Israel, how can the so called land of Pure have any relations with the so called enemy of ISLAM (Israel).
Some Israeli leaders believe that once diplomatic relations with Pakistan are established, then Pakistan could serve as a bridge between Israel and the Arab world. thats the essence of all this....
Firstly, The Israeli military exports with India are in Billions of USD, which by no way the Israelis can effort to compromise.
Secondly, Pakistan's religious political parties and militant group such as Jamaat-e-Islami, Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam and Lashkar-e-Taiba fierecely oppose any relationship with Israel, how can the so called land of Pure have any relations with the so called enemy of ISLAM (Israel).
Some Israeli leaders believe that once diplomatic relations with Pakistan are established, then Pakistan could serve as a bridge between Israel and the Arab world. thats the essence of all this....
TrueSpirit
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2009
- Messages
- 1,893
- Likes
- 841
Excellent post...very convincing..at least, all people of reason would be convinced...
sesha_maruthi27
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2010
- Messages
- 3,963
- Likes
- 1,803
Ha ha ha ISRAEL is trying to woo the Muslim nations now.
mayfair
Senior Member
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2010
- Messages
- 6,032
- Likes
- 13,109
I would say that's perfectly justifiable on their part at least.
Thanks neilay, I am actually writing a term paper on India - Persian Gulf countries and their changing security relationships so I can hopefully shed some light on this topic.
To be pedantic, it wasn't at exactly the same time. Iran under Shah was not close to India and was much closer to Pakistan and infact part of the Baghdad Pact and the CENTO alliance. Again keeping the big picture of the Cold War power politics in mind will help in understanding relationships here. So historically speaking, India's ties with Iraq has been the most consistent.
Iran under Shah (until 1979), Pakistan, GCC countries, Jordan, Turkey and Israel all were solidly behind the US. Iraq under Saddam, the Palestinians under PLO, Egypt under Gamal Abdel Nasser(and until 73), Syria, Afghanistan(until 1992) and India under Indira Gandhi all had a soviet tilt or a close security relationship with the USSR.
Infact, while the Israelis and Pakistanis were helping the Shah in Iran in training his Air Force or helping stablishing the Jordanian regime by supressing the leftist PLO (See Black September). India was traininig Iraqi Air Force pilots in the 80s and had security co-operation with Egypt as well until Anwar Sadat's assasination and Husni Mubarak's coming to power and aligining firmly with the US. And ofcourse everyone knows the close relationship between Yasir Arafat the leader of the secular leftist PLO and Indira Gandhi who has said to have literally cried when she was assasinated.
The 80s was a very intersting time, the Shah was over thrown and Ayatollahs came to power in Iran in 79. Soon afterwards, you had the Iran-Iraq war. Now India only had close relationships with Iraq till now. Although there were extensive trade and diaspora ties with GCC countries, they never went more than that. But during this war, almost every single major nation was involved in funding both sides. Kissinger actually said that its a shame that in this war both can't be defeated. The US funded Iraq extensively, this is where you have those infamous pictures of Donal Rumsfeild gifting Saddam and shaking hands with him. Wwhile Israel ironically funded the Iranians. The USSR funded both. A good overview of this is here Foreign support to Iran and Iraq
Now this war may have been good for the US, USSR or GCC because both were considered threats and both were weakened. But after the 1983 stalemate in the war, both countries started attacking their Oil takers of the others. While the US and USSR could afford to send ships and compet the govt. to not attack their tankers. India was in no position to do so and led to an increasing oil import bill that contributed to the foreign exchange crisis in 1991. Overall, the war and the US, USSR, Israel and GCC countries role in funding it was a strategic disaster for India.
The 80s saw declining Indian influence in Iraq and the Gulf war in 1991 compleately annhilated Iraq's military power (which was 4th largest in the world). As a strategic partner it was pretty much useless and with sanctions, India could hardly build up an economic or security partnership. This is when overtures to Iran were made in PV Rao's govt. who later bacame the first PM to visit Iran. Iran was also in need of friends and diplomatically did a great service by vetoing the UN Human Rights council bill condemning India before it could even reach to it from the OIC group on the Kashmir issue. Had it been passed would have led to sanctions on India as the next step. This is the time of Babri Masjid demolition and widspread Hindu-Muslim tensions when even neutral countries looked at India unfavourably. Pakistan-Iran reached their lowest ebb after that.
India started developing a security relationship with Iran next and that included co-operation in Afghanistan to counter Taliban and in 2003 a formal security co-operation pact was signed. Although Iraq under Saddam was still favourable, it was practically of no use with sanctions and what not. India still wanted to maintain relationship with Saddam and passed a parlimentary resolution opposing US invasion as well. Although lobby groups tried to push NDA-led govt. to send Indian troops to Iraq, Vajpayee fortunately vetoed it. This was across party lines as well as according public opinion polls done at that time by Aditya Sinha if I'm not mistaken. The feeling was mutual from Iraq under Saddam as well. Iraq prizes ties with India:Saddam Hussein
Vajpayee in 2000s became the second PM to visit Iran and signed comprehensive pacts. High level of co-operation with Iran included Navy exercises as late as 2006. There are even allegations of India helping Iran with its nuclear program as well as submarine maintanance. Not to mention all the economic ties and linking up to Afghanistan and CARs.
Ofcourse, post 2005 there has been the new dynamic of the third important player and probably the most powerful at present -the GCC countries led by UAE and Saudi Arabia- tilting towards India. Most also have large Indian diasporas and that has helped as well as US pushing them towards an alignment with India. And gone are the days of Khatami and Rafsanji in Iran who were moderate and farsighted. We now have right wing ideological leaders like Ahmedinijad who have made it difficult for India to build its realtionship with Iran, particularly after the IAEA votes eventhough India did go at great lengths to mollify Iran and explain its position.
The Persian Gulf region is very important to India and relations with all three power centres - Iran, Iraq and GCC - are equally important and crucial. Particularly, Iran and GCC given that Iraq will take atleast a decade to get back on its feet and have an impact on the region.
Last edited:
The remark about returning Golan heights to Syria is a long held Indian position and is no different from the position held by many Israeli PMs from Rabin to Ehud Barak and there have even been pre-agreements signed on this already. So in this case Indian President has not said anything that has already been said by Israelis themselves.
But from the Israeli pov, why should they have antagonistic ties with any country if they don't want to with Israel. China-Israel have larger trade and defence ties but that doesn't stop it from having similar ties with India. Israel needs all the partners it can get and Israel will do what is in its interest. Its as simple as that. Why make more enemies unnecessarily by antagonising Pakistan.
And if by some chance it can rope in Pakistan by even establishing a diplomatic precence which I don't see happening it would be a huge coup. Other than that, as wikileaks have shown, Pakistani intelligence do have a relationship with Mossad and share information on terrorism atleast. A good primer is this further reading section on Israeli-Pakistan relations in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Pakistan_relations.
This pdf compiled for the Israeli National Security Studies Institute Beyond the Veil: Israel-Pakistan Relations
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2009
- Messages
- 514
- Likes
- 9
India must send a clear signal to Israel, its either us or them. the magnitude of business with india or the back door entry to the arab world via pakistan. Israel has to choose one.
In the Land of the Pure, anyways how much to ever the Army wishes for the alliance the final call will be taken by the mulla's & maulvi's who will decide if to go with the Enemy of Islam or not.
In the Land of the Pure, anyways how much to ever the Army wishes for the alliance the final call will be taken by the mulla's & maulvi's who will decide if to go with the Enemy of Islam or not.
sesha_maruthi27
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2010
- Messages
- 3,963
- Likes
- 1,803
Well now I don't believe the Israelis in this matter. Tommorow if they get into a peace treaty with the arab world then it would be a disaster for us.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2010
- Messages
- 4,768
- Likes
- 10,311
LOL>>>
why would you ALL even bother to read a news published by propaganda websites like thenews.com or nation.com? if this news is published by ndtv, cnn, reuters, bbc, foxnews or any other popular news channel, then i will take this news very seriously. both sites are owned by the same guys who owns india-defense and pdf and few other propaganda news websites.
seriously, i spent 5 minutes to search this news on google, but i couldn't find evidence that any other popular news channel have published this news.. so i am calling this news as fake
why would you ALL even bother to read a news published by propaganda websites like thenews.com or nation.com? if this news is published by ndtv, cnn, reuters, bbc, foxnews or any other popular news channel, then i will take this news very seriously. both sites are owned by the same guys who owns india-defense and pdf and few other propaganda news websites.
seriously, i spent 5 minutes to search this news on google, but i couldn't find evidence that any other popular news channel have published this news.. so i am calling this news as fake
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 29, 2009
- Messages
- 14,104
- Likes
- 63,370
Pakistan protests against Israeli aggression
13-04-2011,09:26
Follow us on Twitter and Facebook
Pakistan - Pakistani sources reported that Pakistani citizens demonistrated in Karachi on April 12, 2011.
The Pakistani protesters shout anti-Israel slogans and hold up posters during the protest against Israel's military operations on the Gaza Strip. Palestinian medical sources confirmed on Saturday - 9-4-2011 - the martyrdom of Palestinian citizen and injuring another one in a Zionist artillery shelling near the Martyrs Cemetery east of Jabalya camp, the Palestinian medical sources named the martyr as Ahmed Az-Zeitounia, 21, from Al Qassam members.
long live islam
Added: Thursday, 14 April,2011, 06:36 GMT
Comments:
v r wd our falastinean brothers and sisters. O my brothers and sisters dont feel urself alone v r alwaz wid u in every difficult moment bcoz of our kalimah. Amrica israel india ka ek hi elaj ALJIHAD ALJIHAD
nisar ahmed, pakistan
13-04-2011,09:26
Follow us on Twitter and Facebook
Pakistan - Pakistani sources reported that Pakistani citizens demonistrated in Karachi on April 12, 2011.
The Pakistani protesters shout anti-Israel slogans and hold up posters during the protest against Israel's military operations on the Gaza Strip. Palestinian medical sources confirmed on Saturday - 9-4-2011 - the martyrdom of Palestinian citizen and injuring another one in a Zionist artillery shelling near the Martyrs Cemetery east of Jabalya camp, the Palestinian medical sources named the martyr as Ahmed Az-Zeitounia, 21, from Al Qassam members.
long live islam
Added: Thursday, 14 April,2011, 06:36 GMT
Comments:
v r wd our falastinean brothers and sisters. O my brothers and sisters dont feel urself alone v r alwaz wid u in every difficult moment bcoz of our kalimah. Amrica israel india ka ek hi elaj ALJIHAD ALJIHAD
nisar ahmed, pakistan
Sikh_warrior
Professional
- Joined
- May 18, 2010
- Messages
- 504
- Likes
- 273
every country has the right to act in its national interest, make friends or enemies as and when required as per their national interests.
in india its different!
in 1950-1960s Nehru was a glamour boy trying to woo china and ignore uncle sam and israel. china gave a very tight slap in 1962. the non align movement (NAM) was a useless toothless organisation which achieved nothing!
in 1970-80s his daughter was wooing USSR and we kept our selves isolated from an economic view and lacked and development except the 1971 victory over pak and 1974 nuke test.
in the same era, china and usa patched up and began outsourcing everthing to china....and look where china is today!
yes, israelis helped us with material support during wars with pak.
now india and israel face common enemies and need to be together to fight the problem of terrorism.
nations become friends and foe because of the need of national interests which keep changing with the change of time and world political situation.
india has been a democracy since 1947, but uncle sam recently woke up towards the importance of india!
in india its different!
in 1950-1960s Nehru was a glamour boy trying to woo china and ignore uncle sam and israel. china gave a very tight slap in 1962. the non align movement (NAM) was a useless toothless organisation which achieved nothing!
in 1970-80s his daughter was wooing USSR and we kept our selves isolated from an economic view and lacked and development except the 1971 victory over pak and 1974 nuke test.
in the same era, china and usa patched up and began outsourcing everthing to china....and look where china is today!
yes, israelis helped us with material support during wars with pak.
now india and israel face common enemies and need to be together to fight the problem of terrorism.
nations become friends and foe because of the need of national interests which keep changing with the change of time and world political situation.
india has been a democracy since 1947, but uncle sam recently woke up towards the importance of india!
| Thread starter | Similar threads | Forum | Replies | Date |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| M | Salute to KHAD and Dr Najebullah | Military History | 2 | |
| C | This salute to Tricolour by Assam school is simply the best! Here's why | General Multimedia | 1 | |
| G | BSF India's First Line of Defence - Saluting Our Soldiers | Strategic Forces | 0 | |
| L | A Salute to India Army | Indian Army | 2 |
