US Offers To Match India's Ally Russia

[Zebra]

Yes, in the civilian sector. That was not even defence.

Another lie. Proof --> check post #94. It says...... In addi-
tion, we agree to expand our dialog on missile
defense.

You used words like, I am "harbouring this illusion".

Is that right wordings...?

But the reality is India and US are talking about defence and strategic co-operation since 2001.

India wanted diesel locomotive technology. GE refused. So, India settled for Alco, which was inferior, but was an American company nonetheless.

So, you see how India works? India will settle for slightly inferior products if it removes external dependency. This reason is magnified when we talk about defence products.

Only recently has GE agreed to share technology.

Russians are happy to provide 50% of ToT for FGFA? Forget about full ToT.

On top of it, if someone is happy to buy HAL Tejas and Arjun MBT but with conditions that they must get full ToT, then India will sell it?

I won't. If I got some tech then I won't sell it.

Then it is up to xyz company and their govts, they go case by case. We can't do anything in it.

I think GoI has made largely correct decisions. We can talk about specific scenarios, as they have their own merits.

Lets come back to original topic, how US will move on....!

The Russians were good enough to offer India to walk away from the deal, with a refund, but the Indian Navy chose to go ahead with the price hike, instead of taking a refund.

Looks like the Russians are indeed trust-worthy.

Anyway leave it for now.

I don't have a problem acquiring Chinook for the purpose it was designed.

I have a problem of acquiring the Chinook as a replacement of the Mil-26. Very simple.

If you have a need for a tactical lifter, and buy a Chinook, then there is nothing wrong with it.
If you have a need for a strategic lifter, and then go for a Chinook, then something is very fishy.

May be in future they will try to get few of strategic lifter also.

I have said this earlier and I am saying it again: Technically, and I repeat, technically, I like quite a few US products, like the C-130, C-17, Apache, over their Russian counterparts. So what is the problem with these? It is political. Nothing wrong with the products per se, but with the strings they come attached with. They are a big risk. The US can put sanctions and all these expensive hardware could become grounded any time.

So, why do you want to put India in such a risky proposition?

Do you now realize why India is avoiding getting fighter planes and sticking to transporters?

Once you become on US side everything gets easy.

I give you one example, when US entered first time in Iraq, at that time, Turkey deployed their army on Turkey Iraq border.

With a order that when ever their command show green light they have to enter in northern Iraq against Kurdish.

US opposed it, bcz their army was also there in Iraq. But Turkey refused to listen anything.

Later on they stayed inside their borders only. But they did look after their own interests first despite they were US ally.

The same kind of things they are doing today also.

The question is, what was US reaction....?

Did they abandoned Turkey...!

In fact Turkey got F-35 engine maintenance workshop.

So once you are with US, things get much easy. That is fact.

That easiness India will get.

Check Italy. They are in JV for different types civil and military stuff with Russia, other EU countries and US also.

No one cries about it.

 

[Zebra]

Casper,

I want to add few points wrt russian help to India.

1) We have leased a nuclear reactor driven submarine from Russia and are in plans to lease one more.No western country would have done that to india.try asking it from US?You will realise.
2) Russians are helping us extensivly in Building Indigenious Aircraft carriers,nuclear submarines.America let alone supporting our Indigenious efforts they have not even respected offset requirements our defense projects.
3) It was russia which sent warship to protect us in 1971 war with Pakistan when US had sent a warship to fight against India.We should be ever greatfull to that.
4) Now days DRDO is absolutly independent on Ballistic missile development.But in intial days IGMD we had to rely upon russia.

There are many more. The truth is we will distance ourself from russia if we ally with US,but US can throw us anytime literally making us Orphans in this interconnected world. Russia values friendship and US values money.As long as we throw money to US,we can buy most of the Stuffs which US is ready to sell to its allies.But angering Russia now will make it drift towards China which will be a death blow for us.

Sir, you better check post #1 of this thread first.

We will talk later.

 

[brational]

Sir, US helped in 1962, do you remember that?

On top of it, explain what kind of strings you find in US-India defence deals as of yet.

Sir, China captured 38000 sq km of our land (Aksai Chin) in 1962 and withdrew from Arunachal Pradesh due to logistics issues. US helped with food supply and Sweater Supply besides few photographs of the border areas. Nehru asked for 12 squadrons of Super Sonic fighter planes from US and advanced radars, but got nothing. This led Soviets to supply arms and equipment to India and still continuing.

The string is in the form of downgraded avionics, radar and weapon systems. The recent blackmailing on ultra light guns. US came to know about the urgency and increased the price showing assembly closure, but that gun making unit is still active.

India should engage with US in trade and commerce. Defence equipments from US is not going to help India in Technology absorption.

 

[Zebra]

Sir, China captured 38000 sq km of our land (Aksai Chin) in 1962 and withdrew from Arunachal Pradesh due to logistics issues. US helped with food supply and Sweater Supply besides few photographs of the border areas. Nehru asked for 12 squadrons of Super Sonic fighter planes from US and advanced radars, but got nothing. This led Soviets to supply arms and equipment to India and still continuing.

The string is in the form of downgraded avionics, radar and weapon systems. The recent blackmailing on ultra light guns. US came to know about the urgency and increased the price showing assembly closure, but that gun making unit is still active.

India should engage with US in trade and commerce. Defence equipments from US is not going to help India in Technology absorption.

A Forgotten War In The Himalayas

Jeff M. Smith
YaleGlobal, 14 September 2012

 

[brational]

A Forgotten War In The Himalayas

Jeff M. Smith
YaleGlobal, 14 September 2012

Nice read. But the fact remains unchanged -

US helped with food supply and Sweater Supply besides few photographs of the border areas. Nehru asked for 12 squadrons of Super Sonic fighter planes from US and advanced radars, but got nothing.

Time has changed. In future India-China conflict, US will not take India's side, rather US will stay neutral considering their huge stake in China. Why the US invested in trillions in a communist country? The answer is to make India an ally and stand against China during war! What a dubious country US is? They are imposing sanctions against Russia for invading Ukraine, where they were when Pakistan invaded Kashmir? Why are they giving money to Pakistan after OBL was found in Abottabad Garrison City? Why they supplied F-16 to Pakistan after 1998 Nuclear test?

Sorry Sir, I am finding it difficult to digest "India should align with US"

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Large countries can never be allies regardless of ideology. Always view each other
With suspicion and as future competition. Why does a country bigger than then eu
Even have to worry about allies? India has historically resisted any formal alliances, very
Few pacts signed even with neighboring nations.

 

[sgarg]

No country can survive if it mortgages its principles. This is a fact. The long term survival of a nation is based on its principles, and not its borders.

I have said multiple times on this forum that India is based on its age-old civilization which is highly moralistic. We are NOT a nation of opportunistic people.

If a military alliance with USA is possible where India's principles are not compromised, then it is fine. Otherwise not.

India cannot become a vehicle for somebody's superpowerdom.

India is a multi-religious multi-ethnic democracy and wishes its neighbours to uphold the same principles. This should be clear to USA. If USA helps in this, then help from USA is welcome.

I see no reason to destroy India's long lasting friendship with Russia. Russia is an important country and it is important to have good relations with Russia. The stability in our neighbourhood requires cooperation with Russia anyway.

 

[Zebra]

Nice read. But the fact remains unchanged -

Time has changed. In future India-China conflict, US will not take India's side, rather US will stay neutral considering their huge stake in China. Why the US invested in trillions in a communist country? The answer is to make India an ally and stand against China during war! What a dubious country US is? They are imposing sanctions against Russia for invading Ukraine, where they were when Pakistan invaded Kashmir? Why are they giving money to Pakistan after OBL was found in Abottabad Garrison City? Why they supplied F-16 to Pakistan after 1998 Nuclear test?

Sorry Sir, I am finding it difficult to digest "India should align with US"

Rediff On The NeT: Russia was not supportive during Indo-China war: Dixit

November 2, 1999

 

[charlie]

Rediff On The NeT: Russia was not supportive during Indo-China war: Dixit

November 2, 1999

Ya right, Soviet union was a founding member and part of non-aligned movement. I can understand you are in favor of US but at-least post something that is even a bit credible.

 

[brational]

Rediff On The NeT: Russia was not supportive during Indo-China war: Dixit

November 2, 1999

First, US supported India during 1962 war, so India should align with US, then Russia was not supportive during 1962 war, so we should align with US. This is very poor logic. Your next logic might be - Bhutan was supportive during 1962 war so we must align with US, Mauritius was supportive during 1962 war so we must align with US and so on.. If your ultimate aim is to make India an US ally without any concrete base, then alright, will write to Sujata Singh and Sushma Swaraj to consider your view with the above reasons and Links. Happy!:thumb:

 

[Zebra]

First, US supported India during 1962 war, so India should align with US, then Russia was not supportive during 1962 war, so we should align with US. This is very poor logic. Your next logic might be - Bhutan was supportive during 1962 war so we must align with US, Mauritius was supportive during 1962 war so we must align with US and so on.. If your ultimate aim is to make India an US ally without any concrete base, then alright, will write to Sujata Singh and Sushma Swaraj to consider your view with the above reasons and Links. Happy!:thumb:

Sir, China captured 38000 sq km of our land (Aksai Chin) in 1962 and withdrew from Arunachal Pradesh due to logistics issues. US helped with food supply and Sweater Supply besides few photographs of the border areas. Nehru asked for 12 squadrons of Super Sonic fighter planes from US and advanced radars, but got nothing. This led Soviets to supply arms and equipment to India and still continuing.

The string is in the form of downgraded avionics, radar and weapon systems. The recent blackmailing on ultra light guns. US came to know about the urgency and increased the price showing assembly closure, but that gun making unit is still active.

India should engage with US in trade and commerce. Defence equipments from US is not going to help India in Technology absorption.

Sir I posted this link in reference to your own statement. See the red color part.

Rediff On The NeT: Russia was not supportive during Indo-China war: Dixit

November 2, 1999

-----------------------------------------------

USSR was not supportive during 1962 war, now can I take it in this way.........(keep red color part here)......that is why.

 

[brational]

Sir I posted this link in reference to your own statement. See the red color part.

Rediff On The NeT: Russia was not supportive during Indo-China war: Dixit

November 2, 1999

-----------------------------------------------

USSR was not supportive during 1962 war, now can I take it in this way.........(keep red color part here)......that is why.

Yes Sir, Russian Arm supply started only after 1962 war due to US denial. India purchased the 1st Mig 21 in 1963.

 

[pmaitra]

Sir, China captured 38000 sq km of our land (Aksai Chin) in 1962 and withdrew from Arunachal Pradesh due to logistics issues. US helped with food supply and Sweater Supply besides few photographs of the border areas. Nehru asked for 12 squadrons of Super Sonic fighter planes from US and advanced radars, but got nothing. This led Soviets to supply arms and equipment to India and still continuing.

The string is in the form of downgraded avionics, radar and weapon systems. The recent blackmailing on ultra light guns. US came to know about the urgency and increased the price showing assembly closure, but that gun making unit is still active.

India should engage with US in trade and commerce. Defence equipments from US is not going to help India in Technology absorption.

If I may add, India would have had an advantage over PLA in 1962 had India used its air force, because, Indian airfields were located closer to the battle zone at low altitudes, and thus could carry more payload to the battle zones, unlike PLAAF. However, India needed a few extra squadrons, as you stated. The US Ambassador Galbraith persuaded India not to use air force, and the US dragged its foot on arms supply to India.

The USSR was not at all allied with PRC then. The Sino-Soviet split had begun before 1962 War.

 

[pmaitra]

Here is the sequence of posts:

No, not for being pro-US per se, but for harbouring this illusion that there can be any partnership between India and US. The problem is from the US side.

Answer it, US-India ever talked about co-operation, tie, partnership in past?

Answer it as Yes / No.

Yes, in the civilian sector. That was not even defence.

India wanted diesel locomotive technology. GE refused. So, India settled for Alco, which was inferior, but was an American company nonetheless.

So, you see how India works? India will settle for slightly inferior products if it removes external dependency. This reason is magnified when we talk about defence products.

Only recently has GE agreed to share technology.

Another lie. Proof --> check post #94. It says...... In addi-
tion, we agree to expand our dialog on missile
defense.

You used words like, I am "harbouring this illusion".

Is that right wordings...?

How is that a lie? Just because you don't like the uncomfortable truth?

The Diesel Locomotive Works in Varanasi has been manufacturing Alco locomotives because Alco agreed to tech-transfer, and GE refused.

DLW made Alco

Once you become on US side everything gets easy.

Wrong again.

Germany has been on US side, and even more than that, a US ally, yet we do not see VW trucks in the US market because of an embargo the US imposed on Europe.

Chicken tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US will do anything for its own interests, like every country should do.

The purpose of this post is to tell you that everything will not get easy if India goes on US side.

Continue to harbour your illusions by all means.

 

[Razor]

"US Offers To Match India's Ally Russia "

Sounds like empty words.
The US is not going to replace Russia anytime soon, in spite of Russia's movement toward China.

I'm all for co-operation "with the US" (in some areas) but not for co-operation "for the US", which seems to be the norm as far as relations with the US go. :thumb:
@pmaitra : You've immense patience.

 

[Zebra]

Yes Sir, Russian Arm supply started only after 1962 war due to US denial. India purchased the 1st Mig 21 in 1963.

Can you prove it that US denied those fighter aircrafts in 1962?

After the war US didn't supply fighter aircrafts and radar it, that is true.

But then at that time India was never on US side also and two days after request for these fighter aircrafts, China ended the war anyway.

And Nehru asked for these........ "twelve squadrons of supersonic all-weather fighters" and "modern radar cover." He requested the aircraft be "manned by U.S. personnel [to] protect our cities and installations and"¦ to assist the Indian Air Force in air battles with the Chinese air force."

On the other hand the link I posted, it says that........

1) But by November 14 the two had established the "formal basis for military assistance" and Washington was preparing a $50 million package to equip five Indian divisions.

2) US military sales to India surged in the following years, before coming to an abrupt halt during the 1965 Indo-Pakistan war.

 

[Zebra]

Ya right, Soviet union was a founding member and part of non-aligned movement. I can understand you are in favor of US but at-least post something that is even a bit credible.

What is wrong in this link?

 

[Zebra]

Here is the sequence of posts:

How is that a liee? Just because you don't like the uncomfortable truth?

The Diesel Locomotive Works in Varanasi has been manufacturing Alco locomotives because Alco agreed to tech-transfer, and GE refused.

DLW made Alco

What kind of crap you talk sir? Check the threads on topic of "the US India co-operation in defence and strategic" on DFI first.

How many threads are there? Still you spread your crap and lie here again and again.

On top of it, you call others lie, that is funny.

GE don't want to share there trade secretes, they think it might harm them in business.

Then other US company helped.

Take it in this way, bcz of GE didn't help India so you say no to US. But what if other companies like ALCO also refuse bcz you said no to US....!

No one provide state of the art tech. Please keep in mind. It may be US or Russia, they all are same for that matter.



Wrong again.

Germany has been on US side, and even more than that, a US ally, yet we do not see VW trucks in the US market because of an embargo the US imposed on Europe.

Chicken tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US will do anything for its own interests, like every country should do.

The purpose of this post is to tell you that everything will not get easy if India goes on US side.

Continue to harbour your illusions by all means.[/QUOTE]

Sir, Germany don't buy fighter aircrafts from US. In fact they are competitor in defence trade for US companies.

Now look in this way, US gone nuts against France for LHDs to Russia. The same US didn't say anything against Iatly. There are few of defence products activities going on right now. But no word what so ever from US side.

Now all these are my illusions....!

 

[Zebra]

@pmaitra, for VW pick ups, there are few design and safety related issues that US wants VW to clear first. IMO.

Volkswagen says US pickup is back on the table - Autoblog

 

[Zebra]

"US Offers To Match India's Ally Russia "

Sounds like empty words.
The US is not going to replace Russia anytime soon, in spite of Russia's movement toward China.

I'm all for co-operation "with the US" (in some areas) but not for co-operation "for the US", which seems to be the norm as far as relations with the US go. :thumb:

Glad to hear that people are happy now, but consider defence also in those "some areas" please.

On top of it, elaborate that red color part. If you like.

@pmaitra : You've immense patience.

Only @pmaitra has that, here on DFI....?