US Offers To Match India's Ally Russia

[Bhadra]

What exactly are they offering to India???

Their mal and a subservient relationship of a client state but not funded by them....

 

[Kranthi]

Their mal and a subservient relationship of a client state but not funded by them....

Don't be obsessed towards US.
Never believe the US in the 1st place,there are many examples to support this.

Isn't this the same US which tried to stop us from acquiring every major technology ???
What about the case of ISRO ?
Why can't we divert our own civilian techs to our own military projects ?

All the way we took Russian help to become self reliant in many fields,while US kept on trying to stop us from doing so.

Some one said US had been offering help since 1947,but with many conditions which ultimately bind us to be a puppet in their hands.
Thank god we did not fall in the booby traps.
And now all of a sudden they are ready to give anything to India.Only fools would believe such kind of offers are of any benefit to us.The Ultimate beneficiary will be the US.

US do not need to sell military equipment/tech to keep its economy in a healthy state.So they are not selling for money.

Every major tech we have that can b reliable against china is with considerable Russian help.Who were with us from a long time.
Yes Russian economy cannot be compared to US.So business is a good source for their income.
Russian did not supply any piece of military hardware/tech to pak directly but US did.

US is very opportunistic.
They want pak,to threaten India when needed.And they want India against China.

The current configuration is marching towards a balance of power between the west and the east.
With the world politics going this way,US very well know that it won't remain a Superior power for too long.

All they are trying to do is shift the power balance towards the west by seducing India.
Russia Challenged US for a long time and now has become incapable of developing techs comparable to the US,mostly because of financial problems,which can find a solution by partnering with India.
China is already becoming a headache to US slowly.

Russia with active collaborations with China and India can get back to match the Technology race with US.
FGFA,Brahmos and many more are the examples.

What US want is to cut the link between India and Russia and deprive Russia from joint projects with India and thus putting hold to development of cutting edge techs,as Russia cannot develop costly tech alone.

This is what the US want.They want to crush Russia by roping in India,and the US will not give any TOT(atleast not without conditions).

And about price hikes,if they were really over priced,why would india keep on buying new hardware ?
Though the price hikes like in case of gorshkov are unexpected,they have shown proper reasons for it and yes we were in the middle of the deal so couldn't draw back from the deal.But that was not really as bad as everyone think.

I don't like the idea of cutting relationship with a partner who helped us all the way (without conditions) just because we have a shiny fruit infront which is unreliable and never proved us itself to be worthy.

 

[trackwhack]

We must never fall into this trap that is being laid out for us. Once we leave russia and go towards the yanks then we would have lost future russian trust and this would give the yanks a good leverage over us and we will get shafted badly unless we sign those rediculous treaties that give all conrtol to the yanks over there military hardware.

The future is indeginization and co-operation with russia in high tech until we become self sufficient in that too.

The future is indigenization and co-operation with Russia, Israel, France, Brazil and possibly Japan in high tech until we become self sufficient.

Any deal with the US that is of a scale that challenges the above is immoral and incorrect. India should not do anything that supports the sustenance of American hegemony.

 

[KS]

"Match" as in ?

Are they gonna let us co-develop the Raptor ?

 

[KS]

Looks like some serious brainstorming is going on in the US wrt to India.

I dont know if we have a collection of brains to brainstorm in India about our relations with the US at least in any officially appointed capacity. We guys over here do it.

India has to take up this opportunity for its own good. The US is offering high end technology and India should grasp it with both hands. India has to seriously think about taking the strategic ties to the next level. Russia has become unreliable. Hiking prices phenomenally as we heard recently about the price of ammo for the T90s and Russia is open to selling tech to China which will filter down to Pakistan.

We need the leftist mind in MoD to change or go.

Its clearly time for some serious effort to establish very strong relations with the US and lose the old baggage permanently.

Dictching Russia for USA especially in regards to critical combat platforms like fighters will be a new low in the stupidity quotient of UPA.

They deliver us transport planes good. They deliver MRMR platforms..good. But fighters...No.

 

[p2prada]

Aegis is a good option. F-35s for the Navy with a decent ToT option would be good too. It won't match Russia but it will be a start.

 

[mki]

Don't be obsessed towards US.
Never believe the US in the 1st place,there are many examples to support this.

Isn't this the same US which tried to stop us from acquiring every major technology ???
What about the case of ISRO ?
Why can't we divert our own civilian techs to our own military projects ?

All the way we took Russian help to become self reliant in many fields,while US kept on trying to stop us from doing so.

Some one said US had been offering help since 1947,but with many conditions which ultimately bind us to be a puppet in their hands.
Thank god we did not fall in the booby traps.
And now all of a sudden they are ready to give anything to India.Only fools would believe such kind of offers are of any benefit to us.The Ultimate beneficiary will be the US.

US do not need to sell military equipment/tech to keep its economy in a healthy state.So they are not selling for money.

Every major tech we have that can b reliable against china is with considerable Russian help.Who were with us from a long time.
Yes Russian economy cannot be compared to US.So business is a good source for their income.
Russian did not supply any piece of military hardware/tech to pak directly but US did.

US is very opportunistic.
They want pak,to threaten India when needed.And they want India against China.

The current configuration is marching towards a balance of power between the west and the east.
With the world politics going this way,US very well know that it won't remain a Superior power for too long.

All they are trying to do is shift the power balance towards the west by seducing India.
Russia Challenged US for a long time and now has become incapable of developing techs comparable to the US,mostly because of financial problems,which can find a solution by partnering with India.
China is already becoming a headache to US slowly.

Russia with active collaborations with China and India can get back to match the Technology race with US.
FGFA,Brahmos and many more are the examples.

What US want is to cut the link between India and Russia and deprive Russia from joint projects with India and thus putting hold to development of cutting edge techs,as Russia cannot develop costly tech alone.

This is what the US want.They want to crush Russia by roping in India,and the US will not give any TOT(atleast not without conditions).

And about price hikes,if they were really over priced,why would india keep on buying new hardware ?
Though the price hikes like in case of gorshkov are unexpected,they have shown proper reasons for it and yes we were in the middle of the deal so couldn't draw back from the deal.But that was not really as bad as everyone think.

I don't like the idea of cutting relationship with a partner who helped us all the way (without conditions) just because we have a shiny fruit infront which is unreliable and never proved us itself to be worthy.

Right now we have the entire card in our hand and we can decide how to play.

In my suggestion play smart without leaving any major ally.

Right now our policy is good. Give most of the airforce main fighter to russia and france, Anti-aircraft systems and missile to Russia, Israel, France. while some of the navy weapon and logistics and servelance equipments to US. Plus make co-oparation for tech and grow our products.

make a note all major power must me pin down by our diplomacy. losing one block means inviting trouble as they likely to give help to our beloved neighbours.

As US is not a trusted nation, We need Russia to check China. And Russia can only understand the language of money, we need US if the situation arrives.

 

[sukhish]

it seems U.S and pakistan will make up once again.

 

[Kranthi]

Agreed with mki.
We better do it the current way.

We can buy equipment like transport,surveillance aircraft,infantry weapons etc from US (though even with C-130J we were not given crucial technologies),but should not buy any serious weapons from the US.

A Big NO NO for Aegis
look at Jalashwa we got it a bit cheap but it cannot be used for any offensive purposes and important equipment onboard are sealed(can b used but cannot be opened) said to be as a protection from copying technology.

But I always think about something else.
we never know what's inside.A GPS transmitter will b of no significant size but can give out the location of the ship.GPS tranmitter is a small thing as we know US have many spy sattilites and other sources to track whatever they want. But what about some other electronic equipment.What if they can remotely control those sensors or weapons or atleast if they can remotely shut them down ?

Don't say that is impossible with present day technologies.
We cannot rely on the equipment made by someone else,we should speed up the process of developing reliable indigenous sensors/radars and weapon systems (or) we should build them in india under license and TOT.

And we cannot put our naval assets under their control by buying AEGIS radars. Though it might just be a false speculation but can we completely rule out such possibility ?? can anyone throw some light ?

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Never believe UNCLE SAM.......

They are backstabbers.........

We don't want american crap and JUNK in the INDIAN DEFENCE FORCES..........

 

[Dovah]

We don't want american crap and JUNK in the INDIAN DEFENCE FORCES..........

Unfortunately, we do.

 

[Zebra]

You are living in a la-la land.

Why sir? Just bcz I am pro US guy so I automatically become resident of la-la land...!

The US will never accept anyone as an ally, even if they call them an ally.

The US will only accept subordinates, and India will only accept equal partnership.

In other words, US will never accept equal partnership, and India will never accept to be a subordinate.

So, forget it.

If we become their ally then we are becoming for Indian interest only.

Once our (read it - Indian) interest get achieved, who cares that US accept India as their ally or not.

Let them think what ever they like. OR in your words let them live in their la-la land.

Russia treats India far better.

So, all this "defence ties" and all other hypothetical claptrap, or to borrow your favourite word, such "crappy" arguments, are best left to fairy tale books.

There you go again. As usual.

If I point out any particular case then you will jump in with wooden sward to defend Russia again.

And you will always find some kind of fault of Indian side only just protect Russians.

I am telling you as per my experience.

 

[pmaitra]

Why sir? Just bcz I am pro US guy so I automatically become resident of la-la land...!

No, not for being pro-US per se, but for harbouring this illusion that there can be any partnership between India and US. The problem is from the US side.

If we become their ally then we are becoming for Indian interest only.

If we become their ally (impossible, but nonetheless), then we would do it for India's interests only, true, but the fact is, before India gains any benefit, the US will try to extract their own benefit first. Once done, they will move on.

Once our (read it - Indian) interest get achieved, who cares that US accept India as their ally or not.

Unrealistic expectations.

Let them think what ever they like. OR in your words let them live in their la-la land.

Of course.

There you go again. As usual.

If I point out any particular case then you will jump in with wooden sward to defend Russia again.

And you will always find some kind of fault of Indian side only just protect Russians.

I am telling you as per my experience.

I would be more than happy to see an example from your side where I found a fault with India to protect the Russians.

Yes, I did find a fault with a few Indians for choosing the Chinook, not to protect the Russians, but to point out that our requirements for a strategic lifter were not being met.

We already had our requirements, but it was diluted to give the contract to Chinook.

You have a requirement and then based on that, you go looking for a product.

You don't pick the product and then manufacture a requirement to justify the purchase.

This is called post facto rationalization.

 

[Zebra]

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/WCPD-2004-01-19/pdf/WCPD-2004-01-19-Pg61-2.pdf

Statement on the Next Steps in
Strategic Partnership With India

January 12, 2004

In November 2001, Prime Minister
Vajpayee and I committed our countries to
a strategic partnership. Since then, our two
countries have strengthened bilateral co-
operation significantly in several areas. Today
we announce the next steps in implementing
our shared vision.
The United States and India agree to ex-
pand cooperation in three specific areas: ci-
vilian nuclear activities, civilian space pro-
grams, and high-technology trade. In addi-
tion, we agree to expand our dialog on missile
defense. Cooperation in these areas will
deepen the ties of commerce and friendship
between our two nations and will increase
stability in Asia and beyond.
The proposed cooperation will progress
through a series of reciprocal steps that will
build on each other. It will include expanded
engagement on nuclear regulatory and safety
issues and missile defense, ways to enhance
cooperation in peaceful uses of space tech-
nology, and steps to create the appropriate
environment for successful high-technology
commerce. In order to combat the prolifera-
tion of weapons of mass destruction, relevant
laws, regulations, and procedures will be
strengthened, and measures to increase bilat-
eral and international cooperation in this area
will be employed. These cooperative efforts
will be undertaken in accordance with our
respective national laws and international ob-
ligations.

The expanded cooperation launched today
is an important milestone in transforming the
relationship between the United States and
India. That relationship is based increasingly
on common values and common interests.
We are working together to promote global
peace and prosperity. We are partners in the
war on terrorism, and we are partners in con-
trolling the proliferation of weapons of mass
destruction and the means to deliver them.
The vision of U.S.-India strategic partner-
ship that Prime Minister Vajpayee and I
share is now becoming a reality.

 

[brational]

US can be a good partner in Trade and commerce but it can not be a trusted partner in defense. US can neither become India's ally nor it has the ability to supply weapons to India without strings.

It is always better to keep distance from US in security front, if they get a place to stand in India they will destroy our national integrity the way they have done in Pakistan, Afghan and anywhere in the world.

India's interests are safe with Russia as Russia never meddle with our internal affairs. India-Russia relations are time tested. It is better to sort-out the differences with Russia rather than falling into US, who will use India as a balance against China to secure their own interest and make us suffer without any cause.

India has better option than US. Israel is a far better partner along with Russia. US is a time tested backstabber and they will continue doing so. US has to embrace India because our Economy is in a better position to fuel US economy. Their inclination towards India is just because of that.

 

[Zebra]

No, not for being pro-US per se, but for harbouring this illusion that there can be any partnership between India and US. The problem is from the US side.

Answer it, US-India ever talked about co-operation, tie, partnership in past?

Answer it as Yes / No.

If we become their ally (impossible, but nonetheless), then we would do it for India's interests only, true, but the fact is, before India gains any benefit, the US will try to extract their own benefit first. Once done, they will move on.

Explain it........How come they will move on and how come they gonna extract benefits first from India.

Unrealistic expectations.

Then you could be wrong also.

We signed co-operation pacts with many countries. For some reason.

Few of them keep crying for more favourable terms in business, but Indian govt won't listen it.

Of course.

looks like you answer this just for sake of it.

I would be more than happy to see an example from your side where I found a fault with India to protect the Russians.

Just to name one.....Gorshkov.

Yes, I did find a fault with a few Indians for choosing the Chinook, not to protect the Russians, but to point out that our requirements for a strategic lifter were not being met.

We already had our requirements, but it was diluted to give the contract to Chinook.

You have a requirement and then based on that, you go looking for a product.

You don't pick the product and then manufacture a requirement to justify the purchase.

This is called post facto rationalization.

Indian forces never had such tactical lift helos before, let them get few of them first.

At this moment IAF has few (little in numbers) of strategic helos anyway.

 

[Zebra]

US can be a good partner in Trade and commerce but it can not be a trusted partner in defense. US can neither become India's ally nor it has the ability to supply weapons to India without strings.

It is always better to keep distance from US in security front, if they get a place to stand in India they will destroy our national integrity the way they have done in Pakistan, Afghan and anywhere in the world.

India's interests are safe with Russia as Russia never meddle with our internal affairs. India-Russia relations are time tested. It is better to sort-out the differences with Russia rather than falling into US, who will use India as a balance against China to secure their own interest and make us suffer without any cause.

India has better option than US. Israel is a far better partner along with Russia. US is a time tested backstabber and they will continue doing so. US has to embrace India because our Economy is in a better position to fuel US economy. Their inclination towards India is just because of that.

Sir, US helped in 1962, do you remember that?

On top of it, explain what kind of strings you find in US-India defence deals as of yet.

 

[Zebra]

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/53616.pdf

 

[pmaitra]

Answer it, US-India ever talked about co-operation, tie, partnership in past?

Answer it as Yes / No.

Yes, in the civilian sector. That was not even defence.

India wanted diesel locomotive technology. GE refused. So, India settled for Alco, which was inferior, but was an American company nonetheless.

So, you see how India works? India will settle for slightly inferior products if it removes external dependency. This reason is magnified when we talk about defence products.

Only recently has GE agreed to share technology.

Explain it........How come they will move on and how come they gonna extract benefits first from India.



Then you could be wrong also.

We signed co-operation pacts with many countries. For some reason.

Few of them keep crying for more favourable terms in business, but Indian govt won't listen it.



looks like you answer this just for sake of it.

I think GoI has made largely correct decisions. We can talk about specific scenarios, as they have their own merits.

Just to name one.....Gorshkov.

The Russians were good enough to offer India to walk away from the deal, with a refund, but the Indian Navy chose to go ahead with the price hike, instead of taking a refund.

Looks like the Russians are indeed trust-worthy.

Indian forces never had such tactical lift helos before, let them get few of them first.

At this moment IAF has few (little in numbers) of strategic helos anyway.

I don't have a problem acquiring Chinook for the purpose it was designed.

I have a problem of acquiring the Chinook as a replacement of the Mil-26. Very simple.

If you have a need for a tactical lifter, and buy a Chinook, then there is nothing wrong with it.
If you have a need for a strategic lifter, and then go for a Chinook, then something is very fishy.

I have said this earlier and I am saying it again: Technically, and I repeat, technically, I like quite a few US products, like the C-130, C-17, Apache, over their Russian counterparts. So what is the problem with these? It is political. Nothing wrong with the products per se, but with the strings they come attached with. They are a big risk. The US can put sanctions and all these expensive hardware could become grounded any time.

So, why do you want to put India in such a risky proposition?

Do you now realize why India is avoiding getting fighter planes and sticking to transporters?

 

[power_monger]

Casper,

I want to add few points wrt russian help to India.

1) We have leased a nuclear reactor driven submarine from Russia and are in plans to lease one more.No western country would have done that to india.try asking it from US?You will realise.
2) Russians are helping us extensivly in Building Indigenious Aircraft carriers,nuclear submarines.America let alone supporting our Indigenious efforts they have not even respected offset requirements our defense projects.
3) It was russia which sent warship to protect us in 1971 war with Pakistan when US had sent a warship to fight against India.We should be ever greatfull to that.
4) Now days DRDO is absolutly independent on Ballistic missile development.But in intial days IGMD we had to rely upon russia.

There are many more. The truth is we will distance ourself from russia if we ally with US,but US can throw us anytime literally making us Orphans in this interconnected world. Russia values friendship and US values money.As long as we throw money to US,we can buy most of the Stuffs which US is ready to sell to its allies.But angering Russia now will make it drift towards China which will be a death blow for us.