US-India Collaboration on Aircraft Carriers: A Good Idea?

Srinivas_K

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participating in The Make in India program from the American defense industries will be very rudimentary.
Them Americans..They will take more than they give.. You wont find any mutual respect in deals.
For India based on the present situation in Asia, it is very important to keep up the technological edge over the rivals.

As China rises India will be forced towards USA that is natural. Since India has territorial disputes with both China and Pakistan.

However India will keep a balance when dealing with the two giants diplomatically. Territorial integrity is of utmost importance. Trade and economic relations are also important with the two giants, so India will work in this regard.

USA is not going to attack India but chances of China combined with Pakistan are real and a nightmare scenario. It is the stick in your hand that will make you stand up to the bullying in trade and diplomacy. It is not like surrendering to one power and giving up every thing.

Regarding mutual respect, India is a big country and the respect and value the country gets is directly related to economy and military power. All we need is access to advanced weapons tech and when compared to other countries USA is decades ahead and no country can close this gap even in the near future. we need defence co operation, so that our industry will grow and become self sufficient.

First India must survive then comes the diplomatic relations, The goal should be to maintain technological edge and deterrence against the two rivals so that India will grow peacefully in the coming decades. Then there is no need to go into Chinese camp or US camp we can have our own Camp.

regarding India's stature, no one can/will embarrass or undermine this country. np

Mutual co operation is the right way !



We need

1) Technology for Super carrier construction which involves EMALs.

2) Fighter jet technology.

3) Technology related to sub hunting.
 
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Khagesh

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We cannot take the decision on this collaboration as we do not know what the US wants in return. But I can say this. We should carefully weigh the cost and the benefits and make a rational non emotional choice. @Rashna - please testify to my anti-US credentials.
:)
You write as if anti-US credentials is what I asked for.
Don't make me look like anti american bhai.
I am just Pro Indian because I am an Indian. Just that India is not an invention for me and I tie myself to the History of India just the way i tie myself to its future.

With the Americans we have started work on some areas where we had no or little capabilities and that is good. But under the guise of cooperation a lot of kala angrez simply try to peddle everything western. But then that again is their business. I digress.

I wrote something simply because you wrote something. I hope you realize that whatever you write is read by people who chance upon your post and so I wrote merely to give options. What the readers ultimately decide is upto them but I hope you appreciate the fairness of giving people options and facts. Some people also taught me things in some such ways and the cycle should go on.

Nothing personal. Both of us are serving national interest by discussing these things. :thumb:
 
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Rashna

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I hereby certify you as pro india. Hope this works for @Khagesh :namaste:

Look man I understand what you are saying.
Let me divide my answer into a two parts:
Part 1-(talking in a more general sense )
I know already the US will never consider India an equal. They have sabotaged us before (ISRO cryo + this case) and may do it again. We are piss poor and can not and will not fight US. we are strong enough to protect our core interests(like Iran petrol deal etc.) . Our people are stuck in a perpetual cycle of poverty leading to socialist subsidies leading to poverty ad infinitum. If we go at it alone , it will be very difficult. Not because we don't have the ability , but because our own people are $hit. Look at our political next gen leadership. Pappu , mullah-i-am , Kejru .. except Modi , Parrikar and a few BJP CM's I really can't see good leaders. only feudal powerbrokers. Just yesterday a moron killed himself for a political stunt. India needs a mindset change , it needs massive investment in education and tech and healthcare. Whatever we have been doing is not working well enough. :(. WE NEED HELP.
Part 2-(On this specific issue)
Look it is not gonna be like the last time. Our team sits with their team and we have a good discussion and maybe get good ideas. This aircraft carrier is not meant to fight US so no harm in showing our designs. I am as big a nationalist as you are but we can not do everything alone. All this will cost us some strategic/political autonomy. As long as the average Indian get food + healthcare + peace, I really don't care.
We cannot take the decision on this collaboration as we do not know what the US wants in return. But I can say this. We should carefully weigh the cost and the benefits and make a rational non emotional choice. @Rashna - please testify to my anti-US credentials.
 
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roma

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The ideas/ proposals are interesting.
How India will employ the finished product is India's own decision and we are not under their vassalage.
If the US feels assisting India will assist them in their China strategy, so be it, since we do have a convergence in curbing the hegemonic quest and adventure of China and her growing presence in the Indian Ocean with their String of Pearls razzmatazz.
your post is exactly how i feel not only about the proposals of cooperating with the usa on AC tech
but also any other military cooperation.

If they dont appreciate our input and think we owe them something, then we can let them go their way

within the next 20 years, the usa should be feeling the heat form china, as indeed india is even today
it would be a good idea for both of us to cooperate
hope usa can see the logic


That reactor design tech is :drool:
And having US naval design review our designs is also :drool:

you are saying that :-
you want the usa to review our naval AC design ?
???????????
in the past you have written some good posts
but now has your girlfriend left you or something ?
 
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Zebra

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participating in The Make in India program from the American defense industries will be very rudimentary.
Them Americans..They will take more than they give.. You wont find any mutual respect in deals.
We saw too many of those in PAK-FA / FGFA case, T-90 case, Admiral Gorshkov case.
 

Zebra

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For India based on the present situation in Asia, it is very important to keep up the technological edge over the rivals.

As China rises India will be forced towards USA that is natural. Since India has territorial disputes with both China and Pakistan.

However India will keep a balance when dealing with the two giants diplomatically. Territorial integrity is of utmost importance. Trade and economic relations are also important with the two giants, so India will work in this regard.

USA is not going to attack India but chances of China combined with Pakistan are real and a nightmare scenario. It is the stick in your hand that will make you stand up to the bullying in trade and diplomacy. It is not like surrendering to one power and giving up every thing.

Regarding mutual respect, India is a big country and the respect and value the country gets is directly related to economy and military power. All we need is access to advanced weapons tech and when compared to other countries USA is decades ahead and no country can close this gap even in the near future. we need defence co operation, so that our industry will grow and become self sufficient.

First India must survive then comes the diplomatic relations, The goal should be to maintain technological edge and deterrence against the two rivals so that India will grow peacefully in the coming decades. Then there is no need to go into Chinese camp or US camp we can have our own Camp.

regarding India's stature, no one can/will embarrass or undermine this country. np

Mutual co operation is the right way !



We need

1) Technology for Super carrier construction which involves EMALs.

2) Fighter jet technology.

3) Technology related to sub hunting
.
We need tech about how to mass manufacture different defence systems in given time frame.
 

Rowdy

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you are saying that :-
you want the usa to review our naval AC design ?
???????????
in the past you have written some good posts
but now has your girlfriend left you or something ?
yup.
In the next twenty years atleast we need a tunnel vision on our economy.
We are not gonna fight US.
so better our naval design has interaction with the best in the world.
 

sorcerer

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For India based on the present situation in Asia, it is very important to keep up the technological edge over the rivals.

As China rises India will be forced towards USA that is natural. Since India has territorial disputes with both China and Pakistan.
Nope.that kicks our neutrality out the window.. India should be able to survive herself without being looked up on as a VASAL state of US. US cannot be trusted in dealing with PAK..remember David Hedly affairs and the current state of NATO countries who had dependance on USA for its tech needs.
Its scary to see India depending on USA for her tech needs. + Being a friend of USA will harm India's reputation as a neutral state big way.

Pak is trying to move away from USA.

Territorial dispute with China is on talks and lets hope that will be final. Pak is always isolated in case of war opened by Pak.

However India will keep a balance when dealing with the two giants diplomatically. Territorial integrity is of utmost importance. Trade and economic relations are also important with the two giants, so India will work in this regard.
USA is not going to attack India but chances of China combined with Pakistan are real and a nightmare scenario. It is the stick in your hand that will make you stand up to the bullying in trade and diplomacy. It is not like surrendering to one power and giving up every thing.
Are we to forget the US pissing off INdia scenarios of the past ..
US is not a stick in the hand..The best example will be to have a look at the American friends in Europe..how "freely" those countries can exercise their foreign policies.

Do read about FII investment in India from USA for the year 2013-2014..you will understand the actuals behind so called "ECONOMIC RELATION" between 2 giants+ Do read about the various trade agreements and how one sided they are.
The trade agreements are where INDIA and CHINA get together against the US and its vassals. This itself is a proof how "balanced" US trade agreements are.



Regarding mutual respect, India is a big country and the respect and value the country gets is directly related to economy and military power. All we need is access to advanced weapons tech and when compared to other countries USA is decades ahead and no country can close this gap even in the near future. we need defence co operation, so that our industry will grow and become self sufficient.
We have always found that if and only India makes things indigenous we have got the respect.
Accessing advanced tech makes the region compete for advanced weapons which is good for USA and their friends defence industries.

ToT and make in India is a giant step which gives us the know how. "Know how" is a big deterrent in itself.

Defence cooperation is nice..but never ever expect Americans to treat you their equal.They cant and they wont..its in their blood. if they could do that to NATO they can do worse to India.

After Obamas visit what did the Americans contribute on the MAKE IN INDIA? A lousy drone deal? what after that?
and yes they did give us a DRONE stripped off its weapons which will only work for surveillance. :D . THeir version..their tech should only be used for peaceful purposes. If India want to use it for war..AMERICANS will decide WHICH WAR.

The PMs European visit was more succesful than Obama visiting India.

Such incidents show the Americans shrewd mindset.
They will give you an inch and take a mile.

First India must survive then comes the diplomatic relations, The goal should be to maintain technological edge and deterrence against the two rivals so that India will grow peacefully in the coming decades. Then there is no need to go into Chinese camp or US camp we can have our own Camp.

regarding India's stature, no one can/will embarrass or undermine this country. np



Mutual co operation is the right way !
India has certain technological edge..we just need to shape up internally.Even after getting technology from anywhere, if we havent shaped up internally we wont be able to cater to the needs.
 

sorcerer

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y
within the next 20 years, the usa should be feeling the heat form china, as indeed india is even today
it would be a good idea for both of us to cooperate
hope usa can see the logic
USA wants a Base to operate..a land where their soldiers can camp and ports where their ships can berth and airports.
REST IS :BS:

Remember the drone deal with USA...
US will give us tech..but US will dictate which war to fight with their tech.

Europe itself is a wonderful story of foreign relation mess and tech licensing with US
 

Srinivas_K

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Nope.that kicks our neutrality out the window.. India should be able to survive herself without being looked up on as a VASAL state of US. US cannot be trusted in dealing with PAK..remember David Hedly affairs and the current state of NATO countries who had dependance on USA for its tech needs.
Its scary to see India depending on USA for her tech needs. + Being a friend of USA will harm India's reputation as a neutral state big way.

Pak is trying to move away from USA.
Why are you thinking in the prism of Pakistan, the view point is flawed and wrong. On top of that there is a fear of being over run by bigger run. This is more of a paranoia than thinking.

Some kind of biased views out of hatred or fear I guess.

India and US are co operating for many decades and there are many defence toys India bought from west, INS Vikrant and the carrier before that are an example. India buys tech. from every nation and balances itself.

Territorial dispute with China is on talks and lets hope that will be final. Pak is always isolated in case of war opened by Pak.
Chinese won't compromise, Nor they will leave Pakistan since Pakistan force multiplies their capabilities against India. Any potential threat to their domination of Asia is their prime target. For USA we are not a direct threat.


Are we to forget the US pissing off INdia scenarios of the past ..
US is not a stick in the hand..The best example will be to have a look at the American friends in Europe..how "freely" those countries can exercise their foreign policies.
The rise of China was made possible because of MNC's (US Govt. institutions). Same catalyst India needs at this point of time. Chinese never open their mouths and they took what ever that came from west call it propaganda or what ever and emerged. Again biased view.

Do read about FII investment in India from USA for the year 2013-2014..you will understand the actuals behind so called "ECONOMIC RELATION" between 2 giants+ Do read about the various trade agreements and how one sided they are.
The trade agreements are where INDIA and CHINA get together against the US and its vassals. This itself is a proof how "balanced" US trade agreements are.





We have always found that if and only India makes things indigenous we have got the respect.
Accessing advanced tech makes the region compete for advanced weapons which is good for USA and their friends defence industries.

ToT and make in India is a giant step which gives us the know how. "Know how" is a big deterrent in itself.

Defence cooperation is nice..but never ever expect Americans to treat you their equal.They cant and they wont..its in their blood. if they could do that to NATO they can do worse to India.

After Obamas visit what did the Americans contribute on the MAKE IN INDIA? A lousy drone deal? what after that?
and yes they did give us a DRONE stripped off its weapons which will only work for surveillance. :D . THeir version..their tech should only be used for peaceful purposes. If India want to use it for war..AMERICANS will decide WHICH WAR.

The PMs European visit was more succesful than Obama visiting India.

Such incidents show the Americans shrewd mindset.
They will give you an inch and take a mile.



India has certain technological edge..we just need to shape up internally.Even after getting technology from anywhere, if we havent shaped up internally we wont be able to cater to the needs.

Chinese never go against USA, They know the capabilities of USA and also know what will happen to CCP if they do any mischief. They reap benefits that are thrown by USA. You need to know history how chinese sided with USA and benefited in trade, UN security council seat and other things.

India is a different case, India plays proactive role , enters into agreements where it sees benefits and will build its capabilities.

The view point that China is going to confront USA and change the world order itself is flawed idea and what ever views that are based on this assumption are also wrong.
 
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salute

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India would be best served by small satellite communication relays that can help carrier killer missiles get their target coordinates.

In any case a carrier is useless if it cannot get to within a 1000 km of the targeted land mass. Beyond that you can always chose to send in subs to keep the carrier hopping around.

Since we do have a rather large ocean to police we would need Aircraft carriers to police the oceans too. A task, different from attacking other countries and their shipping. And something that does not require super carriers.

Carriers as force projection are lucrative targets only.
not all objectives gonna be achieved by subs or anti-carrier missiles,these things useful either in war or for warning to stay away,

but thats not exactly power projection,thats for defensive or offensive action in war or if threat in your territory ,

but what in international waters ???

with aircraft carrier you can achieve most of objectives of power projections,

its like building a military base in a sea ,you are extending your military in international waters,

so super carriers are useful.
 

salute

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I know already the US will never consider India an equal. They have sabotaged us before (ISRO cryo + this case) and may do it again. We are piss poor and can not and will not fight US. we are strong enough to protect our core interests(like Iran petrol deal etc.) .
inferiority again ???

being poor only compared to america is not exactly being poorest in the world,

even super power like america is getting tired in fighting against real poor fighters like taliban.
 

Khagesh

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not all objectives gonna be achieved by subs or anti-carrier missiles,these things useful either in war or for warning to stay away,

but thats not exactly power projection,thats for defensive or offensive action in war or if threat in your territory ,

but what in international waters ???

with aircraft carrier you can achieve most of objectives of power projections,

its like building a military base in a sea ,you are extending your military in international waters,

so super carriers are useful.
Yes I can understand.

Its just that its so much more cool to just wreck, burn, slash, totally destroy things. :p

And from that perspective an aircraft carrier is a bloody liability.
 

salute

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Yes I can understand.

Its just that its so much more cool to just wreck, burn, slash, totally destroy things. :p

And from that perspective an aircraft carrier is a bloody liability.
then whole military is a liability from that view. :wave:
 

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