US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India says

sayareakd

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

every country will do what is in their best interest, so shall we. Means what is point if having trade and cricket with country which sends terrorists and which cannot control their individuals and make all sort of sily excuses and lip service.
 

Yusuf

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

Well india can immediately needle the US by increasing oil imports from Iran. Iran is certainly better than Pakistan.
 

sesha_maruthi27

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

Well india can immediately needle the US by increasing oil imports from Iran. Iran is certainly better than Pakistan.
Bhai jan, madam ji bohat naaraaz honge, she will not act against the US.............

She is practically selling INDIA for 10 years to the foreigners...........
 

W.G.Ewald

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

The US authorities have submitted before Eastern District New York court that Pakistan's ISI and its former chiefs Ahmed Shuja Pasha and Nadeem Taj "enjoy immunity" in a case related to the 26/11 attacks filed by American survivors and relatives of victims of the Mumbai terror strikes.
The ruling by the US federal court judge in this civil case has not been delivered in this civil case, AFAIK, and the precedent cited in the decision should be posted in this thread.
 

no smoking

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

Well india can immediately needle the US by increasing oil imports from Iran. Iran is certainly better than Pakistan.
Yes, right! Americans will cry and come back begging for forgiveness from Indians!:rofl:
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

Lets see how the courts rules, but I for one would like to see the evidence, if there is any, 'implicating the ISI and its DG's in the Mumbai attacks' presented and debated in front of the court.

So far neither the Indian nor US governments have been able to provide credible evidence implicating the ISI, so perhaps these canards of ISI involvement could be exposed for what they are once and for all in a court.
 
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Yusuf

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

Lets see how the courts rules, but I for one would like to see the evidence, if there is any, 'implicating the ISI and its DG's in the Mumbai attacks' presented and debated in front of the court.

So far neither the Indian nor US governments have been able to provide credible evidence implicating the ISI, so perhaps these canards of ISI involvement could be exposed for what they are once and for all in a court.
Off course. DG is going to be very stupid enough to record all his deeds and leak it to the media and hand himself over with all "evidences".
Let me ask you this, did you consider Bin Laden a criminal terrorist and why?
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

Off course. DG is going to be very stupid enough to record all his deeds and leak it to the media and hand himself over with all "evidences".
So you agree with me that there is no evidence implicating the DG ISI, or for that matter any credible evidence implicating the ISI as an institution.
Let me ask you this, did you consider Bin Laden a criminal terrorist and why?
OBL accepted responsibility for the 9/11 attacks did he not?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/international/30osamaCND.html?_r=0
 

Yusuf

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

So you agree with me that there is no evidence implicating the DG ISI, or for that matter any credible evidence implicating the ISI as an institution.

OBL accepted responsibility for the 9/11 attacks did he not?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/international/30osamaCND.html?_r=0
No I didn't say there is no evidence about DG ISI.

Is a confession the only way hour court sees as "evidence"
 

sesha_maruthi27

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

No I didn't say there is no evidence about DG ISI.

Is a confession the only way hour court sees as "evidence"
Bhai jaan, the people of pakistan never accept the truth and it is the same here also........

Even if ISI accepted also these lunatics will say no there is no evidence at all........
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

No I didn't say there is no evidence about DG ISI.
So what is the evidence against the DG ISI?
Is a confession the only way hour court sees as "evidence"
No, but you asked me whether I thought OBL was a 'criminal terrorist', and I pointed out that given OBL's own confession there was no real doubt about his guilt. In the case of allegations against the DG ISI, I see no credible evidence or confessions to establish ISI complicity in the Mumbai attacks.
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

Bhai jaan, the people of pakistan never accept the truth and it is the same here also........
So what exactly is the credible evidence establishing ISI guilt?
Even if ISI accepted also these lunatics will say no there is no evidence at all........
The ISI has not accepted responsibility for the Mumbai attacks, and pointing out the lack of evidence implicating the ISI in the Mumbai attacks can hardly be called 'lunacy'.
 

Yusuf

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

So what is the evidence against the DG ISI?

No, but you asked me whether I thought OBL was a 'criminal terrorist', and I pointed out that given OBL's own confession there was no real doubt about his guilt. In the case of allegations against the DG ISI, I see no credible evidence or confessions to establish ISI complicity in the Mumbai attacks.
You speak like your govt which can never be satisfied with whatever proof. Enough intel including those from the US to show complicity. I mean you can at best sugar coat.

BD genocide, rape etc didn't happen either isnt it? I mean your govt still doesn't think so. I guess there is no "evidence"
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

You speak like your govt which can never be satisfied with whatever proof. Enough intel including those from the US to show complicity. I mean you can at best sugar coat.
Yusuf, put your nationalism to the side for a moment and actually look at the information provided in the dossiers to Pakistan by the Indian government and tell me what exactly constitutes an air-tight case against Hafiz Saeed, let alone the ISI?

The strongest allegations of ISI involvement in the Mumbai attacks come from Headley, and even there all he can claim is that individual XYZ introduced himself as Major this or that. A court would have to establish the specific identity of the individuals Headley claimed he met, the court would then have to establish whether those individuals were in fact serving military officials, and the court would then have to establish whether those individuals were acting on behalf of the Pakistani military/intelligence establishment.

Either that or provide intercepts and/or documentation establishing communication (related to the Mumbai attacks) between the Pakistani military/intelligence and individuals involved in perpetrating the Mumbai attacks. Going back to the OBL example, US intelligence obtained additional intercepts of OBL and his minions talking about 9/11 attacks prior to the attacks, which further solidified the case against him and Al Qaeda. I see nothing of the sort to establish ISI complicity.
 
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KS

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

Ofcourse keep whining. Everything will automatically fall in line. Why go to Pakistan, the world's sixth nuclear power and to Shri Hafiz Sayed ji...nowadays even Maldives and Lanka are doing a cock-a-snoop with India.
 

Yusuf

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

I don't think you have read the dossier you privy to any intel reports.

Electronic intel, phone taps etc, statements of headley, Jundal, Kasab.

Its not about being nationalistic here at all. It's about your country living in denial.

You said nothing about Bangladesh. No evidence there too about genocide, rape of Bengalis by Pak army? And yes it didn't have anything to do with Yahya Khan?

Come on AM. It's you who is being nationalistic. Seriously a true Pakistani nationalist would today weed out terrorists not support them. Well selective weeding is not good if at all.
 

Agnostic Muslim

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

I don't think you have read the dossier you privy to any intel reports.
Electronic intel, phone taps etc, statements of headley, Jundal, Kasab.
I have read most of what is available in the public domain, and the problem with the statements/claims of individuals (if not corroborated by other individuals) is that it becomes a case of 'he said she said'. Kasab claims HS was involved, HS claims he was not, and provides alibis (real or fake) to prove his point that he was not where Kasab said he was at any particular time.

Headley's testimony, as I pointed out in my previous post, is also flimsy, and borders on some Major XYZ introducing himself as such. Pakistan would rightfully ask how Headley established that the individual he met was actually a military official? What 'intercepts and phone taps prove that serving ISI officials, at any level, were involved in the Mumbai attacks?

Its not about being nationalistic here at all. It's about your country living in denial.
It isn't denial when the other side cannot show any concrete evidence to establish their claims.

You said nothing about Bangladesh. No evidence there too about genocide, rape of Bengalis by Pak army? And yes it didn't have anything to do with Yahya Khan?
Having had a lot of experience with his on other forums, I am choosing to avoid answering this question in order to prevent the discussion from being hijacked, as almost always happens.

That said, my responses to this question are available on the forum I left, on several threads related to the subject. I believe my username there has been maliciously changed to DK33 - just so you know what to look for.
 

W.G.Ewald

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

The inside story of the CIA-ISI immunity deal - thenews.com.pk

Quote of entire article from Pk news:

The US State Department's decision to extend immunity to two former ISI chiefs in the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks case is in accordance with a clandestine understanding reached between Admiral Mike Mullen and General Ashfaq Kayani during a day-long meeting held at a secluded resort in Oman on February 22, 2011.



The State Department informed a New York federal court on December 19 that the ISI and two of its former director generals enjoyed immunity and cannot be tried in the Mumbai terror attacks case.



But well-informed diplomatic circles in Islamabad say a commitment to this effect had been given to Pakistan's military top brass almost a year ago by their American counterparts during the Oman meeting.



Those who attended the Oman meeting [besides Kayani and Mullen] included General David Petraeus, the then commander of International Security Assistance Force, Admiral Eric Olson, commander of US Special Operations Command, General James Mattis, commander of US Central Command and Major General Javed Iqbal, the then director general Military Operations. Interestingly, the ISI and CIA chiefs were absent from the conference room during the high-powered meeting.



The meeting was meant to overcome the diplomatic crisis threatening the Pak-US ties in the wake of the arrest of Raymond Davis, an undercover CIA agent, who had killed two youngsters in Lahore on January 27, 2011. The shooting had led to a major diplomatic row between Washington and Islamabad as the Americans insisted that Davis enjoyed diplomatic immunity while Pakistanis argued that he was a CIA contractor and not an embassy employee to be given immunity.



In fact, the Davis episode took place hardly a few weeks after a US court summoned the then DG ISI Ahmed Shuja Pasha and several other senior army officers [in November 2010] for their alleged involvement in the Mumbai terror attacks.



The US summons had deeply upset the Pakistani military establishment, which was of the view that the spy chief of a friendly country should not have been treated like this. On December 16, 2010, shortly after the issuance of the summons, the Islamabad Police had moved to register a murder case against the then CIA station chief in Pakistan, Jonathan Banks, who was supervising the deadly drone campaign in the tribal areas. The complainant was a resident of North Waziristan, who wanted a murder case to be registered against Jonathan for the killings of his son and brother in a drone attack in December 2009.



The standoff had pushed the CIA and ISI into an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation, compelling the military leadership of the two countries to hold a secret moot in a third country to resolve the crisis. The Pakistani side made it clear that any understanding to improve the ties, including the release of Davis, would include the withdrawal of the summons against the ISI chief. Subsequent to the clandestine deal, Raymond Davis was set free on March 16, 2011 by a Pakistani court after the families of the two killed men were paid $2.4 million as blood money. The CIA agent was immediately taken out of Pakistan.



Almost a year later, the US State Department has informed a New York court that the defendants in the Mumbai attacks case — Ahmed Shuja Pasha and Nadeem Taj — are immune from the law suit. The State Department also pointed out that its determination was not subject to judicial review. The US court had issued summons in November 2010 to Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha, Lt Gen Nadeem Taj, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi and five serving and retired Majors of the Pakistan Army for their alleged involvement in the Mumbai attacks, asking them to appear before it. The court was hearing a law suit filed by the relatives of Gavriel Noah Holtzberg, an American Jew and his wife Rivka who were shot dead at the Chhabad House in Mumbai during the 2008 terror strikes. Their son, Moshe, was saved by his Indian nanny.



Filed on November 19, 2012, the 26-page lawsuit stated: "The ISI has long nurtured and used international terrorist groups, including the LeT, to accomplish its goals and has provided material support to the LeT and other international terrorist groups. The Mumbai attacks were planned, trained for and carried out by members of defendant, the LeT. Defendant ISI provided critical planning, material support, control and coordination of the 26/11 attacks," the lawsuit alleged.



The lawsuit further alleged: "On and prior to November 26, 2008, the ISI, Ahmed Shuja Pasha, Nadeem Taj, as well as other officials, agents and employees of the ISI directed, engaged and/or relied upon the efforts of US-based individuals, including but not limited to David Headley and Tahawwur Rana, for raising funds, building a network of connections, recruiting participants and planning the operation of the Mumbai terror attack".



Noting that the LeT still operates training camps in Pakistan, Kashmir and Afghanistan, the petition alleged that the group has openly advocated violence against India, Israel and the US. It also named Muridke, Manshera and Muzaffarabad as centres of training camps operated by the Lashkar. The 10 LeT activists who undertook on-the-ground Mumbai attack underwent extensive training in the LeT camps in Pakistan, the lawsuit further alleged.



The lawsuit also claimed that Pakistani American LeT operative David Headley, who has already pleaded guilty to his role in the plotting of the Mumbai attack, built a network of connections from Chicago to Pakistan, undertaking these efforts at the direction and with the material support of both the LeT and ISI. Prior to and following each trip to Mumbai, Headley reported to and received further instructions from both the LeT and ISI.



"In September 2008, the 10 LeT attackers were moved to Karachi and installed in an ISI/LeT safe house and isolated from outside contact," it said, adding that while staying in the Karachi safe house, the attackers received specific instructions on Mumbai targets. The safe house was part of the ISI's "Karachi Project," an initiative by which anti-Indian groups were tasked and supported by the ISI in a surreptitious fashion to engage in acts of international terrorism.



As the US State Department has extended amnesty to two former ISI chiefs in the 26/11 case, India has reacted sharply, saying the American decision was a matter of deep and abiding concern as it contradicted Washington's public commitment to bringing those responsible for the Mumbai terror attacks to justice. Six Americans were among the 166 killed in the Mumbai attacks. India's National Investigation Agency (NIA) has already secured an Interpol Red Corner Notice against five officers of Pakistan Army for their alleged role in the Mumbai terror strikes.



They include Major Sajid Majid (named by David Headley, an American terror accused being tried in the US), Major Mohammad Iqbal (an ISI official and Headley's alleged handler who faces terrorism charges in the US for his role in the Mumbai attacks), Major Sameer Ali (an ISI official accused of having worked with Headley), Major Syed Abdul Rehman alias Pasha (accused of carrying out recruitments for the Lashkar-e-Taiba) and Major Abu Hamza (one of the alleged handlers of the Mumbai attackers who was on phone with the terrorists who carried out Mumbai attack). The warrants were issued on the basis of claim made by Headley that these people had worked in close coordination with him in executing the Lashkar-e-Taiba plans for carrying out the 26/11 strikes in Mumbai.



It took two days of persuasion for Headley to waive his right to silence under the US law and detail every meeting he had with his LeT handlers, including Hafiz Saeed and the ISI officials in Muzzaffarabad and Lahore before the 26/11 attacks. He told the NIA team in Chicago in the presence of US prosecutors, FBI agents and his lawyers, that his reconnaissance missions and its results were closely and jointly monitored by the LeT and ISI before he received fresh instructions. The 11th dossier, which India had handed over to Pakistan on June 18, 2010, contained every statement by Headley, which shows the ISI as a central player. "An ISI brigadier served as handler for Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi who is also close to DG ISI. The ISI funds LeT and shields Hafiz Saeed from interference," so said the 11th dossier while quoting Headley.
 

The Messiah

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

I don't think you have read the dossier you privy to any intel reports.

Electronic intel, phone taps etc, statements of headley, Jundal, Kasab.

Its not about being nationalistic here at all. It's about your country living in denial.

You said nothing about Bangladesh. No evidence there too about genocide, rape of Bengalis by Pak army? And yes it didn't have anything to do with Yahya Khan?

Come on AM. It's you who is being nationalistic. Seriously a true Pakistani nationalist would today weed out terrorists not support them. Well selective weeding is not good if at all.
Well in that case i hope true nationalists are beheaded. We need pakis to continue on there delusional path and further breakup there country.

An idiotic enemy is better for India than a sane one. Right now we dont need to do anything to break up pakistan they are doing it themselves, we just need to give them a helping hand and play into there delusions.
 

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Re: US immunity to Pak's ISI in 26/11 a serious disappointment, India

A response from the "Pakistan Observer":

ISI immunity frustrated Indian attempt

Foreign-backed subversive activities inside Pakistan have deep connections with the propaganda against the country. In this regard, with assistance of the US-Israeli lobbies, India leaves no stone unturned in tarnishing the image of Pakistan, its army and the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) through concocted stories. But India was badly disappointed when recently, the US State Department conveyed to a New York federal court that under the US Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA), Pakistan's ISI and its two former chiefs, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha and Lt. Gen. Nadeem Taj, "enjoy immunity" in the case of Mumbai terror attacks of 2008. In this context, an Indian statement said, "The decision of the US authorities in this case is a cause of serious disappointment...


False allegations of Indian and US officials including their investigative agencies were exposed when on May 31, 2011, David Headley changed his testimony, absolving the ISI leadership from planning the 2008 Mumbai tragedy. It is mentionable that in 1987, Headley was arrested on drug trafficking charges, and was sentenced to less than two years in jail. Afterwards, he conducted undercover surveillance operations for the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). No doubt, this proves that Headley had a deal with the American authorities which allowed him mild punishment in exchange for a promise of give false statement against ISI and its two chiefs."
 

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