US forces had orders to target Indian Army in 1971

[Bangalorean]

You keep on saying this but how will India benefit from usa without them wanting to pull the strings from behind.

List few points on how usa will help India that would be reasonable.

It is not about them "helping India". Why do you expect them to "help us" - they are not obligated to do so. I hope we are not getting into the Paki mentality of "give me, give me, me too"!!

Relationship should be based on equality, and give-and-take. We can make conditions conducive for manufacturing, hi-tech, etc. and invite US companies to set up shop here. We can take it up at the diplomatic level for companies such as CRAY to set up shop in India (which is currently not permitted, afaik). We can offer to provide outsourced cheaper commodity satellite launches, so that NASA can focus on other stuff. We can ask for joint development of something, in India, with Indian workforce (to take advantage of lower rates).

There is a lot of scope for good relationship. We need to be careful not to get into a dependency trap, and to ensure that we continue such relations with other nations such as Russia and Japan too.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Precisely, which the USA doesn't allow as it fears these countries could outgrow US militarily. Come on, you need to agree that Kissinger mindset is still prevalent in USA despite massive changes in its attitude post 9/11. You know that the Pentagon and White House would never want Germans, Japanese and Koreans to become too powerful. I am not being against US; but just telling some present facts since past is no longer relevant:

- Israel-palestine woes.
- Pakistan-us woes.
- South Korea-North Korea woes.
- Germany's mandate to "stand down".
- Japan's mandate to never look up.

While US is interested in solving these issues (at least that's what it says), then why is it not finishing these problems off even for those who are friendly to US among these??

-Let Israel get their nation.
-Let us finish off the world's terrorist factory and take our rightful territory back.
-Let South Korea take over North Korea.
-Let Germans and Japanese arm to defend themselves.

I am sure that once US allows these to happen, US will get even stronger friends from these countries. Then why? Because of one simple worry; what if these countries become independent a little too much? This paranoia is the cause of most worries. Even if US cannot help, at least give 100% backing to these countries morally. If Japan and Korea are allowed to militarize, US's economic and military burden by freeing up Japanese and Korean military from your yokes and deal with China and the Fat Kims respectively.

Come on, think about it.

I have never thought about US holding Japan, KS, Germany or any other country hostage. How do we do that?

Palestine is an unrelated problem to those countries. Pakistan is even more unrelated.

Look, I don't want to offend anybody here, but there is this metaphor going around in my head:

India is a Little Kid. Little Kid goes to Big Kid named US and says, "I want you to help me beat up this Other Little Kid (guess who?) in my neighborhood. But don't you ever dare to try to boss me around."

 

[The Messiah]

@the messiah
Same way china did economically. To be the next china by getting high tech stuff. Other commonalities will make sure we are on the same side.

Comparing to china is meaningless. In a dictatorship govt can do anything while here govt is bogged down at every corner! look no further than the protests in tamil nadu regarding nuclear plant.

In people to people relationships there are always "commonalities" and democracy is just fancy term.

Even now what we lack is political will rather than anything else.

high tech stuff ? you mean by stealing and copying ? I dont mind that but few have problems.

 

[pmaitra]

Look, I don't want to offend anybody here, but there is this metaphor going around in my head:

India is a Little Kid. Little Kid goes to Big Kid named US and says, "I want you to help me beat up this Other Little Kid (guess who?) in my neighborhood. But don't you ever dare to try to boss me around."

No offense taken, at least by me.

You are right, if India needs help from the US to beat up Pakistan, then why would the US not think of bossing over India?

In hindsight though, we managed to beat up Pakistan in 1971, all by ourselves, while the USSR staved off the US and PRC. How would you react if India did not seek any US help but simple asked it to stay neutral in case India does start thrashing the crap out of Pakistan?

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Helping to populate the Earth... does that mean you had unprotected sex in 1971??



, just kidding...

That was in 1969. My son was born 7 months after his parents were married.:shocked:

But seriously, I remember there was much use of the term

tilt towards Pakistan

in '71, but it had no meaning to me until now.

 

[Bangalorean]

Comparing to china is meaningless. In a dictatorship govt can do anything while here govt is bogged down at every corner! look no further than the protests in tamil nadu regarding nuclear plant.

In people to people relationships there are always "commonalities" and democracy is just fancy term.

Even now what we lack is political will rather than anything else.

high tech stuff ? you mean by stealing and copying ? I dont mind that but few have problems.

LOL - the US is ahead of India technologically, I think we can agree on that. And what people are talking about is nothing to do with "Stealing and copying".

We need to pull our socks up, and provide land, water, and other facilities for the Intels and AMDs to come and manufacture here (to a large extent we already have the manpower). Then lobby for it diplomatically with the US, even at the political level. Speak of it, sell it to them as a kind of "offset". Once one of them comes in, it leads to a virtuous domino effect.

There is a lot one can do without getting "dependent" on the US. Let us not be too paranoid. The problem arises when one tries to behave like the Pakis, begging for this and that, with no will for any hard work and sweat.

 

[The Messiah]

It is not about them "helping India". Why do you expect them to "help us" - they are not obligated to do so. I hope we are not getting into the Paki mentality of "give me, give me, me too"!!

Relationship should be based on equality, and give-and-take. We can make conditions conducive for manufacturing, hi-tech, etc. and invite US companies to set up shop here. We can take it up at the diplomatic level for companies such as CRAY to set up shop in India (which is currently not permitted, afaik). We can offer to provide outsourced cheaper commodity satellite launches, so that NASA can focus on other stuff. We can ask for joint development of something, in India, with Indian workforce (to take advantage of lower rates).

There is a lot of scope for good relationship. We need to be careful not to get into a dependency trap, and to ensure that we continue such relations with other nations such as Russia and Japan too.

First off there will be no equality unless we start throwing our weight around. Power demands respect, by being polite and playing to the rules will get us no where. The real world is not an idealistic world.

Allright the usa companies set up shop here, so how will that help us acquire "high tech stuff" and what will be give in return ?

We already launch satellites for many countries and since many of those countries are from the west so its fair to assume we charge less than others. Let me tell you one thing usa will never share high tech with us period. Either we copy or steal like chinis or we research it and make it ourselves.

What India needs is political will in funding govt firms and encouraging private firms to start manufacturing things rather than just assembling them. We need to invest massively in R&D.

I am not convinced by these general points regarding usa'a value to us....i want specific facts on how both will benefit from each other.

 

[Yusuf]

Comparing to china is meaningless. In a dictatorship govt can do anything while here govt is bogged down at every corner! look no further than the protests in tamil nadu regarding nuclear plant.

In people to people relationships there are always "commonalities" and democracy is just fancy term.

Even now what we lack is political will rather than anything else.

high tech stuff ? you mean by stealing and copying ? I dont mind that but few have problems.

Political will cost us before. So we have to guard against that in the coming future.

We cannot keep saying democracy is holding us back when other democracies flourish like Germany, Japan etc.

And no I don't mean hi tech copying stuff. I mean get tech from the west in the industrial sector. Chinese are into hi tech manufacturing including iPhones. That's what I was talking about. What stops India from it?

I firmly believe the two countries can be great partners, friends and allies. We need to work our way.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

No offense taken, at least by me.

You are right, if India needs help from the US to beat up Pakistan, then why would the US not think of bossing over India?

In hindsight though, we managed to beat up Pakistan in 1971, all by ourselves, while the USSR staved off the US and PRC. How would you react if India did not seek any US help but simple asked it to stay neutral in case India does start trashing the crap out of Pakistan?

OK by me, and probably most Americans, but you might hear from Hillary, and is that something you want?

OK, war is not a laughing matter, but IMHO if Pakistan cannot keep its own house clean it must at long last bear the consequences.

 

[Bangalorean]

First off there will be no equality unless we start throwing our weight around. Power demands respect, by being polite and playing to the rules will get us no where. The real world is not an idealistic world.

Allright the usa companies set up shop here, so how will that help us acquire "high tech stuff" and what will be give in return ?

We already launch satellites for many countries and since many of those countries are from the west so its fair to assume we charge less than others. Let me tell you one thing usa will never share high tech with us period. Either we copy or steal like chinis or we research it and make it ourselves.

What India needs is political will in funding govt firms and encouraging private firms to start manufacturing things rather than just assembling them. We need to invest massively in R&D.

I am not convinced by these general points regarding usa'a value to us....i want specific facts on how both will benefit from each other.

Refer to Yusuf's post above.

China manufactures everything, from Dell laptops, to iPhones. From LCDs to washing machines. They do this for American companies, Japanese companies, and hundreds of others.

So you tell me, if end-to-end manufacturing happens in India, is the "expertise" not automatically transferred to us? Maybe not 100%, but at least to the tune of 85%. DO you know that in China, there are companies that duplicate the iPhone so well, that it is almost an exact duplicate - you would be hard pressed to make out the difference.

You tell me, why manufacturing something "high tech" domestically, does NOT benefit us.

 

[The Messiah]

Refer to Yusuf's post above.

China manufactures everything, from Dell laptops, to iPhones. From LCDs to washing machines. They do this for American companies, Japanese companies, and hundreds of others.

So you tell me, if end-to-end manufacturing happens in India, is the "expertise" not automatically transferred to us? Maybe not 100%, but at least to the tune of 85%. DO you know that in China, there are companies that duplicate the iPhone so well, that it is almost an exact duplicate - you would be hard pressed to make out the difference.

You tell me, why manufacturing something "high tech" domestically, does NOT benefit us.

And how did china suddenly start producing fake iphones ? what steps did they take.

I wouldn't mind India taking them.

 

[Yusuf]

Ok forget the iPhones part. I am into servicing industrial supplies. I know the set up. I have been to china. Western countries set shop in china to make use if cheap labor and other facilities offered but the CPC to promote industry. Those guys then absorbed the tech to set up their own stuff. Valves, fasteners, pipe fittings, pumps, motors, engines, hand tools, power tools, the list goes on. So much so that the west shut down making such stuff and prefer Chinese. Quality depends on the $$ you pay. The west supervises the work done sorry make good stuff. Left alone, you can get screwed but that's not the point. China was able to establish and industrial set up that now allows it to use even in the military sector. Something that India still struggles with. Just yesterday I talked about hoses and brake pads in IAF requirements.

 

[KS]

You keep on saying this but how will India benefit from usa without them wanting to pull the strings from behind.

List few points on how usa will help India that would be reasonable.

• Nuclear deal (only they had the clout to pull it off)
• Entry into NSG, Wassenaar, MTCR etc (again only they can ass kick the other countries into submission)
• Hi tech weapons
• Diplomatic support on issues
• Trump card against China
• UNSC

These are some of the issues the US could be of help to India and let me not fail to mention the US also needs India.

• reliable partner in one of the most troubled areas in Asia
• a booming economy and an excellent market for their own troubled economy.
• the only possible counter-weight to China in Asia
• A nation representing 1/6 th of humanity that is only bound to get stronger as it progresses etc.

So the Indians out there paranoid about US please dont have that Hanuman syndrome of NOT realising your strength and be skeptical about US. We are not a tiny banana replublic to be thrown around by the US for its interests and the most important point is the US knows that.. So be self-confident,engage the Americans as equal partners and please dont be a hostage to history.

 

[Bangalorean]

And how did china suddenly start producing fake iphones ? what steps did they take.

I wouldn't mind India taking them.

Pretty simple. From more than a decade, they have been the center of hi-tech (and non-hi-tech) manufacturing for the whole world. They have built up a massive talent pool of resources with expertise in design and manufacture of hardware. A bunch of entrepreneurs are bound to come out of such a setup, and someone is bound to say, "hell, I can set up my own stuff - enough of working 9 AM to 6 PM". People then come forth and build their own "fake iPhones" and other stuff.

It all starts with the basics. You need to kick start production and manufacturing of hi-tech in India. To begin with, you can lobby for it, provide incentives, etc.

What should NOT happen is - we should not go around begging like the Pakis, "hey Uncle Sam, give us Drones, give us F-16, give us X, Y Z..., hey Uncle Sam, we need to beat up our neighbour, please do that. Please give us money, give us tech". It should be, "look guys, we give you this massive contract for ABC. As an 'offset', we expect you to lobby your company CEOs to come here and make these XYZ components of ABC. We'll have everything they need completely ready and in place".

And the same kind of attitude with all nations, including Russia and Japan. That is what I would want.

 

[trackwhack]

There is no India - US marriage/pact/alliance/orgy ... nothing.

The US has never had to face a situation where they just do not have a bargaining chip to seal a subservient alliance with another nation. Usually when the US puts out its hand, most nations are ready to grab it despite the unequal relationship it spells out at the outset. There is not one EQUAL ally that the United States have or hashad.

The US however realizes that they cannot have a similar UNEQUAL alliance with India - hence the 'goodies' on offer. However not everything on offer is worth it - the F 35, nuclear commerce with the US, Nato missile shield etc - all fall under the lipstick on a chimanzee categiry. We dont need those, we shouldnt go anywhere close.

On the other hand, the heavy lift aircraft, surveillance systems, trade, space co-operations etc seem to be mutually beneficial and dont seem to have any strings attached. We have indulged in this and the results are there to see and seems a fair deal for both sides.

So why is the US going out of its way to appease India - they'd rather have a bipolar geo-political game than a tripolar one. A tri polar situation means strategic interests can be vetoed against leading to higher chances of military stand offs. A bipolar situation could mean one of three alliances
India - China : Not gonna happen in the foreseeable future but its still a possibility
US - China : Never gonna happen
US - India : Can happen and will be beneficial to the US if they can mould it into an unequal alliance like they have done with Europe and Asian satellite states.

A significant portion of US foreign policy is going to be defined with this in mind - ensure there exists enough dependencies for India to never challenge the US in geo-political strategic vision.

Unfortunately for India, there are more and more people who are myopic about how things are going to evolve and the point that India, China and the US are going to be competitors is completely lost on them. I see the US - India alliance that the Americans desire as one that will limit competition from India and one that will push Asia into a region of extreme polarization - Islamic Middle East vs Democratic South Asia vs Communist China.
When such a scenario unfolds, Uncle Sam can happily continue the peacekeeper / policeman role.

If India has to evolve into a mature and prosperous nation, we have to be able to keep a check on China and the US through means other than strategic alliances. Specifically wrt to the US, the relationship must be one defined primarily by commerce and trade. Military procurement should follow protocols similar to the heavy lift aircraft. Not interested in TOT if it comes with strings attached. Not interested in white-elephants like the F-18 / F16 (I mean seriously, in 2010, the US are trying to sell us a plane they made in the 70's?). Not interested in a sloth like the F-35 which is too much of a gamble considering the shit we've seen during its development and what sensible people have to say about it. Interested in BMD but not as part of NATO - if the missile system is offered as an independent package it may be worth evaluating but else no. Could go on forever...
If the US has any illusions that India can be used as just a counter to Chinese influence, that illusion has to be busted early. We have made all the right noises so far but somehow from reading stuff on this forum itself, I sense that there are more pacifists here than there were 40 years back when we had less weapons but more balls.

 

[Bangalorean]

^^ Pretty much agree with you. In general, take what makes sense for us, and reject what doesn't. Maintain the same attitude with all nations. And most certainly, the Indo-US relationship has to be based on commerce and trade, rather than any "strategic or military pact".

Anyway, so far things have gone quite well, no? I am happy with the way our netas and babus have handled this so far. No need for any paranoia. Just go along the same path.

 

[Bangalorean]

And these are the same people who issued Fatwa against Vande Mataram.

I think they're using the occasion to climb a higher ground.

Here's what will happen now:

• Dickvijay Singh will be all praises for this
• UndieTV and CongressNN-IBN's platoons of chronic trolls with coin-sized bindis and sleeveless blouses will sing those praises
• Deoband will then ask for their favor to be returned discrediting Vande Mataram
• Dickvijay and those 9:00 PM trolls will back Deoband's arguments
• Bye Bye Vande Mataram

Who, US forces?

 

[mahesh]

what was Russian contribution to India, at the time of 1971 war ?

 

[pmaitra]

what was Russian contribution to India, at the time of 1971 war ?

• Veto against resolution against India in UNSC.
• Threat to PRC.
• Nuke subs to shadow US ships.
• Increased weapons supply to India.
• Recognition of independent Bangladesh.

Soviet contribution to be precise.

 

[civfanatic]

I support trade and a strong economic relationship between India and the U.S. I have never spoken against this, nor have many other people on this forum. If even an authoritarian state like China can have a thriving economic relationship with the U.S., there is no reason why India couldn't or shouldn't,

What I am opposed to is a military alliance/geopolitical alignment between India and the U.S., which will spell doom for our strategic autonomy. Those who are students of history understand that the U.S. does NOT treat other nations as equals in alliances. In this respect, the Americans and Chinese are very similar in their foreign policy; they both ruthlessly pursue their national interests, and we should do the same.