US forces had orders to target Indian Army in 1971

SPIEZ

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Take one thing straight: USA will NEVER change its foreign policy. It has, it is and it will always remain only one thing; and that is to use and throw any nation that is of interest to its nation. Others do it as well but no so ruthlessly as USA does. Its foreign policy is only changing tactics. Objective hasn't changed one bit.



Benefit huh? Japanese were industrialized long before US became their best friend through good trade with US. Their industrialization was on the basis of European economy of that time. Japan's imperialist ambitions took roots only after seeing UK, France and other European powers scourging the whole world for resources. Japan modernized its military as long ago as the mid-19th century. The Samurai were opposed to it due to which they had the Satsuma Rebellion: the first civil war of modern times of Japan in which the Samurai were defeated and relented to modernization European-style.

In short, Japanese were always development oriented long before they joined US gang in COLD WAR. It is Japanese mentality to be the most advanced; US did jack except drop a couple of nukes on their heads. Don't link Japanese progress as a result to US grace.So your excuse of Japan is not worthy enough.

Here's something that modern Korea and Japan have in common today:

- Puppet states
- No independent foreign policy
- Cannot use war as an option without US nod
- Cannot develop indigenous technologies without US nod.
- Cannot make any shift in geopolitical scenario without notifying
- Cannot have the freedom to develop strategic level weapons without notifying or asking US to participate.


The reasons why they both are developed:

- No threat in their region. (Imperial Japan took on the world militarily and was still far more developed than USA of today 2 centuries ago)
- Uniform societies.
- Innate sense of culturally being organized since beginning.
- Strong in their ancient cultural concepts.
- Strong in innovation that is encouraged in their countries unlike our nation where it is encouraged only on paper.

Germany is the European example of Japan regarding the same. They are capable of making everything in-house whatever the US can make (in fact, better and more flawless than US-made stuff), but they still are bound by "friendship" that was imposed on them after WW2 whereby USA/UK/France threatened to nuke Germans if they ever developed weapon platforms of strategic significance. That "friendly advice" still stands to this day; something that the modern NATO alliance doesn't show its dark side to the world.

You want good examples of US alliance? Here:

- Shah's Iran
- Iraq
- Pakistan
- Libya
- Batista's Cuba
- Venezuela


These are more contemporary examples of what happens when one relies too much on US. I am not against their friendship but that should not go beyond that; should not become an alliance. Especially not now with this current colonial-residue of a so-called government that runs our country.



No nations are friends. People can be friends but nations can't. Especially not US. Not the way it has constant tiffs with Europeans, holding them at commercial & economic gunpoint for the last 6 decades.
AGREED! So how do we proceed ?
 

sandeepdg

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Very well said, Tshering !! Clearly put things into perspective for some delusional members who always want India to become a American puppet state like South Korea, Japan and the UK.


AGREED! So how do we proceed ?
Its simple. We proceed on our terms and exercise caution whenever or wherever required. Not blindly follow something. Our foreign policy should always be independent and should have the capability to deal with countries like US on one hand as well as countries like Iran on the other hand as long as it serves our interests. If the other side doesn't like our relationship with a particular nation, then it should be made clear to them that we deal with everyone on our terms, whether you like it or not.
 
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SPIEZ

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Very well said, Tshering !! Clearly put things into perspective for some delusional members who always want India to become a American puppet state like South Korea, Japan and the UK.




Its simple. We proceed on our terms and exercise caution whenever or wherever required. Not blindly follow something. Our foreign policy should always be independent and should have the capability to deal with countries like US on one hand as well as countries like Iran on the other hand as long as it serves our interests. If the other side doesn't like our relationship with a particular nation, then it should be made clear to them that we deal with everyone on our terms, whether you like it or not.
We have always had our own foreign policy.
Coming to the context of Indo-US relations how far must we throw caution to the wind?
How far should we bend/be flexible, that is the question!
 

W.G.Ewald

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Spiez if you see the history you will find one thing in common and that is were ever America has set its foot that place has turned into a failure state and many people are suffering due to this.
OK, I must respond to this. An argument could be made that a foolproof way for a country to succeed and prosper is to declare war against the US and lose.
 
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pmaitra

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Guys, let me tell you one thing. You can be critical of US Foreign Policy (so am I), but then, don't let that make you assume things about the American people. This is one thing I must emphasize here.
 

Yusuf

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Tshering,

What you have laid down is well known. But then it's what I have said holding the present and future hostage to the past. Things evolve. America is not what it was even 10 years ago. It needs an India. India needs a US.

The more we delve into the past, the more baggage will be brought to the table. Understanding today's realities and how to best use it to make gains for the future in terms of national interest is the key.

We missed a few buses last century. If we miss this bus, we will suffer for the next 50 years.
 

W.G.Ewald

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Good post tshering :clap:
To answer tshering Post #40, the problem he sees could be addressed by Japan, KS, Germany etc taking on more of the burden of their own defense.


(By the way, he mentions the Satsuma Rebellion. I wonder how much of the movie The Last Samurai was based on it.)
 

W.G.Ewald

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Everyone was well aware of this, and it has been discussed to death before. Well, maybe not exactly the fact that US Marines had orders to attack, but the fact that the US was supportive of Pakistan in general.

But really, this is 1971 we are talking about. Most people on this forum weren't even born back then. Things are different today, and an allying with the US isn't such a bad thing.

However, I maintain that we should not put all our eggs in one basket, and we should have excellent relations and trade with European nations, Korea, Japan and Russia as well.
I was helping to populate the earth in 1971, but I did not appreciate the term "tilt towards Pakistan" until now.
 

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Tshering,

What you have laid down is well known. But then it's what I have said holding the present and future hostage to the past. Things evolve. America is not what it was even 10 years ago. It needs an India. India needs a US.

The more we delve into the past, the more baggage will be brought to the table. Understanding today's realities and how to best use it to make gains for the future in terms of national interest is the key.

We missed a few buses last century. If we miss this bus, we will suffer for the next 50 years.
Completely agree.

We should stop raging and ranting against 40 year old events. We need to form relationships with nations, including the US, based on our interests. We aren't kids or some tiny failed state. We have only ourselves to blame if we cannot be clever enough to establish relations with nations based on our interests, in the current scenario!
 

Bangalorean

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I was helping to populate the earth in 1971, but I did not appreciate the term "tilt towards Pakistan" until now.
Helping to populate the Earth... does that mean you had unprotected sex in 1971?? :confused:

:D

:sorry:, just kidding...
 

SPIEZ

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^^^NO OT!

We are discussing whats goona happen, if or when will Us screw India
 
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Yusuf

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Ok let me take China as an example. Though principally against western ideology, it realized how to evolve itself and use the west to further its economy primarily and then other national interests. The Chinese too faced western read British domination for quite sometime as well as initial isolation when the west recognized Formosa (Taiwan) as the china. That did not stop China from inviting the west 1980 onwards to invest in china. Even the Tianenmen massacre and the criticism that followed didn't deter them from dpi g business with the west.. They summed up what was and to what extent it required the west in its pursuit for economic development as well as modern industrial set up.

Key there was forgetting the past to take care of present and future. China has nothing in common with the west in terms of political and ideological beliefs.

India on the other hand has everything in common with the west but got stuck in the last. India is more commie than China!!
We could have been where China is if we had adopted the right policies to further our national interests. A common refrain is we will become puppets. Did china become a puppet?

We need fresh thinking when it comes to foreign affairs and strategic thinking. India and the west with the US in particular can form a defining partnership of this century, a statement often used by the west but yet to come from India. Just consider the nuke deal as a stepping stone for this. The west didn't have to give it to India. But they did.

Taali do haath se bajti hai ( you need two hands to clap)
 

Tshering22

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To answer tshering Post #40, the problem he sees could be addressed by Japan, KS, Germany etc taking on more of the burden of their own defense.
Precisely, which the USA doesn't allow as it fears these countries could outgrow US militarily. Come on, you need to agree that Kissinger mindset is still prevalent in USA despite massive changes in its attitude post 9/11. You know that the Pentagon and White House would never want Germans, Japanese and Koreans to become too powerful. I am not being against US; but just telling some present facts since past is no longer relevant:

- Israel-palestine woes.
- Pakistan-us woes.
- South Korea-North Korea woes.
- Germany's mandate to "stand down".
- Japan's mandate to never look up.

While US is interested in solving these issues (at least that's what it says), then why is it not finishing these problems off even for those who are friendly to US among these??

-Let Israel get their nation.
-Let us finish off the world's terrorist factory and take our rightful territory back.
-Let South Korea take over North Korea.
-Let Germans and Japanese arm to defend themselves.

I am sure that once US allows these to happen, US will get even stronger friends from these countries. Then why? Because of one simple worry; what if these countries become independent a little too much? This paranoia is the cause of most worries. Even if US cannot help, at least give 100% backing to these countries morally. If Japan and Korea are allowed to militarize, US's economic and military burden by freeing up Japanese and Korean military from your yokes and deal with China and the Fat Kims respectively.

Come on, think about it.

(By the way, he mentions the Satsuma Rebellion. I wonder how much of the movie The Last Samurai was based on it.)
There's more to Satsuma Rebellion than a fancy Hollywood movie, my friend. :)
 

SPIEZ

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Precisely, which the USA doesn't allow as it fears these countries could outgrow US militarily. Come on, you need to agree that Kissinger mindset is still prevalent in USA despite massive changes in its attitude post 9/11. You know that the Pentagon and White House would never want Germans, Japanese and Koreans to become too powerful. I am not being against US; but just telling some present facts since past is no longer relevant:

- Israel-palestine woes.
- Pakistan-us woes.
- South Korea-North Korea woes.
- Germany's mandate to "stand down".
- Japan's mandate to never look up.

While US is interested in solving these issues (at least that's what it says), then why is it not finishing these problems off even for those who are friendly to US among these??

-Let Israel get their nation.
-Let us finish off the world's terrorist factory and take our rightful territory back.
-Let South Korea take over North Korea.
-Let Germans and Japanese arm to defend themselves.

I am sure that once US allows these to happen, US will get even stronger friends from these countries. Then why? Because of one simple worry; what if these countries become independent a little too much? This paranoia is the cause of most worries. Even if US cannot help, at least give 100% backing to these countries morally. If Japan and Korea are allowed to militarize, US's economic and military burden by freeing up Japanese and Korean military from your yokes and deal with China and the Fat Kims respectively.

Come on, think about it.



There's more to Satsuma Rebellion than a fancy Hollywood movie, my friend. :)
You are running away my friend!

1)USA can't declare war on every nation it hates, including Palestine, especially since most middle east countries support it.

2)They don't recognise Kashmir as Indian territory, only as disputed territory!

3)Nuclear North Korea could mean disaster, besides UN will not vote against it in the the first place

4) Germans , I don't think Europe will allow the Germans to re-group as before, IMO those days are way back in the PAST.

What about the current Indo-US relations. Will they be able acknowledge and take action against Pukistan's so called non-state actors, will they stop selling sensitive arms(like Haroon missiles, meant for Taliban) to Pukestan and ask us to buy Aegis system.

What will their response be towards China, if hostilities brake between India and China.

Also how long will Indo-Us marriage last ?
 

The Messiah

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Tshering,

What you have laid down is well known. But then it's what I have said holding the present and future hostage to the past. Things evolve. America is not what it was even 10 years ago. It needs an India. India needs a US.

The more we delve into the past, the more baggage will be brought to the table. Understanding today's realities and how to best use it to make gains for the future in terms of national interest is the key.

We missed a few buses last century. If we miss this bus, we will suffer for the next 50 years.
You keep on saying this but how will India benefit from usa without them wanting to pull the strings from behind.

List few points on how usa will help India that would be reasonable.
 

W.G.Ewald

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There's more to Satsuma Rebellion than a fancy Hollywood movie, my friend. :)
I am sure. My question was how much of the movie was based on history?
 

Yusuf

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@the messiah
Same way china did economically. To be the next china by getting high tech stuff. Other commonalities will make sure we are on the same side.
 

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