US doubts HAL's capability

[roma]

It wasn't the British that collapsed your economy, it was Aurangjeb that f***ed it all up. 100,000 dead per year, the entire treasury squandered... British didn't do shyte compared to that rape.

partial quote of above post
i tend to agree ....it wasnt the brits who destroyed the previously properous india .... it was turk, arab,persian armies - attacking for a few hundred years ...yes the brits did take advantage of the situation but they didnt do even 10 % of the damage that the others did and when they left they tried at least , to leave the nation in one piece as far as was possible ....thier military action was to prevent the turkarab allaiance from becoming too powerful - no britlove here but just for hte sake of accuracey and prevent the "pak syndrome" described in my other post above from taking root among our folks.

 

[civfanatic]

partial quote of above post
i tend to agree ....it wasnt the brits who destroyed the previously properous india .... it was turk, arab,persian armies - attacking for a few hundred years ...yes the brits did take advantage of the situation but they didnt do even 10 % of the damage that the others did and when they left they tried at least , to leave the nation in one piece as far as was possible ....thier military action was to prevent the turkarab allaiance from becoming too powerful - no britlove here but just for hte sake of accuracey and prevent the "pak syndrome" described in my other post above from taking root among our folks.

The facts don't support this view.

 

[Armand2REP]

I am grateful that Indian culture has survived for so long, while other countries have lost their culture to foreign invaders or in the sands of time.

Yes, the caste system today is archaic and needs to be sidelined, if not completely eliminated. There is no doubt about that.

My point was that the caste system has had different effects throughout Indian history. For most of Indian history, the caste system was crucial to maintaining stability, and stability is necessary for economic prosperity. Today, its an impediment more than anything else, because it no longer serves its historic purpose.

I've already said that religion will eventually be sidelined as economic development continues. You cannot change a mindset overnight.

The real problem is not religion anyway, but the lack of modern sewage and water treatment facilities, as well as a lack of general ecological awareness. Both problems will take time to solve.

And what is it about Indian culture that allows unsanitary conditions to be acceptable? I am listening...

Obviously, the population of stray animals should be controlled to prevent overunning of cities. But I would not want them to be eliminated completely, because I for one would miss them.

And please don't mention "animal cruelty". I have seen how animals are treated in factory farms and slaughterhouses in the United States. I'd rather not talk about it.

Worse than the Muslim slaughter houses and the march to death for half of them getting there?

There was something called the Maratha Empire that emerged after Aurangzeb's failed campaign. The Marathas unified most of India, and under their tutelage the Indian economy continued to prosper until about 1800. It was only starting in the late 18th century that visible signs of economic decline began to appear, and by the mid-19th century the Indian economy was in shambles. This economic collapse is the direct cause of British economic policies, the attempts of European revisionists to blame everything on the Muslims notwithstanding.

Huh? The Indian economy was on steady decline since 1700. It was Auranjeb's disastrous campaigns and the constant war with Marathas that set up India's fall.

I have no idea why you are comparing the economies of 18th century India and 20th century France.

The British Empire was worth far more because it owned India, lol.

I'm taking about the 17th and 18th centuries. Europe by this time was well past the Dark Ages and into the late Renaissance. The Bubonic Plague had occurred three centuries earlier; it's completely irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

Comparing Golden Ages in modern terms, your comparison of Indian Golden Age to Europe while it was at its lowest point. All relevant when you are all over the time-lines yourself.

Do you really believe that?

10 million people died in the Bengal Famine of 1770 alone, which was a direct result of British policies. Bengal was occupied by the British during this time. Tens of millions more died in the subsequent famines during the British Raj, all the way to 1943. Nothing in the history of India compares to what the British did, and this is a fact. No use debating it.

Do you really believe that?

The Doji bara famine caused 11 million deaths, what about the Chalisa famine... all under the Maratha.

Famine is a part of Indian weather cycles due to El Nino. I guess you going to blame the British for global warming too?

Seriously guy, get over this victim mentality. The British don't control the weather.

The nature of colonialism is to exploit a country's resources for the benefit of the mother country, while at the same time systematically deindustrializing the colony and making it a giant market for the mother country's goods. This is what the British did in India, and it had a more devastating effect on India than any other colonized country in the world.

Like India was industrialised before the British got there?

The statistics are already there to show that the Indian economy and share of world income were on par with Europe's right up the early 19th century. This was long after Aurangzeb. It is obvious what the real cause of the economic decline was.

Interesting... India's share of world GDP during colonial India was anywhere from 10-4%. It has been 65 years since the British left and India's share today is down to 2.5%. You going to blame the British for the rest of the world's growth?

India actually did do "jack", because India had the largest economy (sometimes 2nd largest, to China) in the world right up to 1800. India was the world's top source of high-quality steel until the 18th century. Ever heard of wootz steel? It's the same as the famous Syrian steel that was exported to Europe during the Middle Ages, and it was first developed in South India. Same with Indian mathematics and the modern numeral system; they weren't developed by the Arabs, but the Arabs adopted them and later spread them to Europe.

Not really, Indian share of global GDP declined because there was no real GDP coming out of the rest of the world. When Europe, America and the rest of the world got into the game it was a forgone conclusion a stagnant India was going to lose shares. Like I said before, 65 years since independence and India is still below their lowest colonial share.

"We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

- Albert Einstein

Did you pull that off another Indian nationalist site? Every major civilisation developed a form of counting, even the Maya which clearly had no Indian influence. The Chinese abacus had more impact to mathematics than India. Name throwing Einstein is rather funny when he was no historian.

NATO and SCO are both collections of sovereign states with their own laws, customs, government, etc.

They are not politically unified. They are just allied with each other because they share certain common interests.

So I don't want to hear the terms 'NATO' and 'Western Aggression' in any more sentences.

Yes, they would. But I hope they wouldn't need to in the future. I am working towards that goal. History is always being made. Change is always occurring.

And what pray tell are you doing to advance that goal?

 

[pmaitra]

And what is it about Indian culture that allows unsanitary conditions to be acceptable? I am listening...

Sanitary conditions do not define a culture. Does wiping your posterior with a piece of paper instead of cleaning with water define French culture?

Huh? The Indian economy was on steady decline since 1700. It was Auranjeb's disastrous campaigns and the constant war with Marathas that set up India's fall.

Utter drivel. India Rupee suffered the most when silver was found in abundance.

Comparing Golden Ages in modern terms, your comparison of Indian Golden Age to Europe while it was at its lowest point. All relevant when you are all over the time-lines yourself.

The term Golden Age is meaningless if you do not mention a civilisation. Every civilisation has or had a Golden Age. Europe is what it is today as a direct and indirect consequence of the Industrial Revolution.

Do you really believe that?

Yes. You?

The Doji bara famine caused 11 million deaths, what about the Chalisa famine... all under the Maratha.

Ok.

Famine is a part of Indian weather cycles due to El Nino. I guess you going to blame the British for global warming too?

Seriously guy, get over this victim mentality. The British don't control the weather.

What you stated right before this was correct. This does not mean what you said now is correct. Actually it is total bull. You have no idea why there was a famine in Bengal or the destruction of the local arts, but you rather prefer to do what you do best: argue without any logic, sense or causal reasoning. FYI, cyclones happen every year, famines don't.

Like India was industrialised before the British got there?

Industrialisation came to India from Europe and not Britain alone. A country does not have to be colonised to be industrialised.

Interesting... India's share of world GDP during colonial India was anywhere from 10-4%. It has been 65 years since the British left and India's share today is down to 2.5%. You going to blame the British for the rest of the world's growth?

No. However, you are not really countering the point but simply stating a fact. Which means what CivFanatic said is correct.

Not really, Indian share of global GDP declined because there was no real GDP coming out of the rest of the world. When Europe, America and the rest of the world got into the game it was a forgone conclusion a stagnant India was going to lose shares. Like I said before, 65 years since independence and India is still below their lowest colonial share.

I don't think India is worse off than it was under the British. You are living in la-la land.

Did you pull that off another Indian nationalist site? Every major civilisation developed a form of counting, even the Maya which clearly had no Indian influence. The Chinese abacus had more impact to mathematics than India. Name throwing Einstein is rather funny when he was no historian.

No, the funny thing is that you are expecting people to take you seriously when you are implying a subtle rejection of Einstein's quote on the pretexts that he was not a historian. Moreover, 'counting' is more about mathematics than history. Now please tell me he was not a mathematician, because I really cannot expect anything better than that from you.

So I don't want to hear the terms 'NATO' and 'Western Aggression' in any more sentences.

Are you really laughing or have you turned red in rage?

And what pray tell are you doing to advance that goal?

Keep militant jingoists like Bush and Sarkozy off at an arms length because these people will wage war on any pretexts, failing which, they will artificially generate pretexts.

 

[civfanatic]

And what is it about Indian culture that allows unsanitary conditions to be acceptable? I am listening...

Nothing. In fact, India was one of the first civilizations where bathing and personal hygiene were taken seriously. The current conditions are not caused by culture, but by socioeconomic realities.

Worse than the Muslim slaughter houses and the march to death for half of them getting there?

Yes.

Huh? The Indian economy was on steady decline since 1700. It was Auranjeb's disastrous campaigns and the constant war with Marathas that set up India's fall.

The Maratha Empire had the world's largest economy, even in the 18th century. Aurangzeb's campaigns did not change the fundamental economic groundwork of India, while the British Raj did.

The facts do not match your illusionary view of world history.

Comparing Golden Ages in modern terms, your comparison of Indian Golden Age to Europe while it was at its lowest point. All relevant when you are all over the time-lines yourself.

The 18th century was definitely not India's Golden Age, and the 18th century was definitely not Europe's lowest point.

India's Golden Age was the Gupta Empire. Europe's lowest point was the Dark Ages. Ironically, both events are more or less contemporaries of each other.

Do you really believe that?

The Doji bara famine caused 11 million deaths, what about the Chalisa famine... all under the Maratha.

Famine is a part of Indian weather cycles due to El Nino. I guess you going to blame the British for global warming too?

The specific example that I used was the Bengal Famine of 1770, which was a direct result of British policy.

Yes, the Marathas could not control the weather, which is why they were not responsible for the people that died in their land from famine.

Seriously guy, get over this victim mentality. The British don't control the weather.

I don't want to debate basic facts. Before you comment again, please do some reading on the Bengal Famine of 1770, and its causes. Also realize that there were many other famines that occurred during British rule as a result of British policy, rather than bad weather. More people died in that century than in any century prior or since. Was the weather really that unique to that paricular time period?

Like India was industrialised before the British got there?

More so than Europe at the time, yes.

India had numerous cottage industries that produced a wide variety of goods, of which the most popular were cotton textiles. The British effectively destroyed India's domestic industries by implementing high tariffs on Indian goods, and flooding Indian markets with European goods.

That's what colonialism is. Try understanding it. The British tried doing something similar with its American colonies, and that was one of the major causes of the American Revolution.

Interesting... India's share of world GDP during colonial India was anywhere from 10-4%. It has been 65 years since the British left and India's share today is down to 2.5%. You going to blame the British for the rest of the world's growth?

That doesn't even address my point.

The point is that India's economy plummeted AFTER 1800, while it was under Company and later Crown Rule. Is that so hard to understand?

Not really, Indian share of global GDP declined because there was no real GDP coming out of the rest of the world. When Europe, America and the rest of the world got into the game it was a forgone conclusion a stagnant India was going to lose shares. Like I said before, 65 years since independence and India is still below their lowest colonial share.

Doesn't address my point.

Did you pull that off another Indian nationalist site? Every major civilisation developed a form of counting, even the Maya which clearly had no Indian influence.

Everyone in the world today uses the Indian system of counting, which is based on 10. The Mayan system was based on 20, and was certainly a great achievment, but it is used by no one in the modern world. Try again.

The Chinese abacus had more impact to mathematics than India.

Lol.

Name throwing Einstein is rather funny when he was no historian.

Einstein was a notable personality who was engaged in the sciences. He is qualified enough to make the statement. More so than you or I, in fact.

So I don't want to hear the terms 'NATO' and 'Western Aggression' in any more sentences.

Will using the terms "American aggression" and "French aggression" make you feel better?

Again, words are just there for convenience.

And what pray tell are you doing to advance that goal?

I am undergoing higher education to become a professional. India needs professionals if it wants to develop.

 

[Armand2REP]

Nothing. In fact, India was one of the first civilizations where bathing and personal hygiene were taken seriously. The current conditions are not caused by culture, but by socioeconomic realities.

So the government is too poor to conduct trash collection instead of piling it on the streets?

Yes.

Ask the cows as they slowly get their heads cut off or when they are crammed 10X over capacity into rail cars to die.

The Maratha Empire had the world's largest economy, even in the 18th century. Aurangzeb's campaigns did not change the fundamental economic groundwork of India, while the British Raj did.

Indian GDP stayed around the same level under colonial rule going up and down.

The facts do not match your illusionary view of world history.

The facts match my macroeconomic view that reveal India was not in a vacuum and its standing to the rest of the world had more to do with the rise of other economies as opposed to its own stagnation. What you are attempting is a revisionist history without looking at the external factors of why India's share fell and it wasn't due to the collapse of the Indian economy which never happened under British rule.

The 18th century was definitely not India's Golden Age, and the 18th century was definitely not Europe's lowest point.

I was talking about the Golden Age of the Muhgals, please try and keep up.

India's Golden Age was the Gupta Empire. Europe's lowest point was the Dark Ages. Ironically, both events are more or less contemporaries of each other.

Gupta Empire didn't even compare to Mughals. Gupta Empire was 1500-2000 years before the Dark Ages... hardly contemporary.

The specific example that I used was the Bengal Famine of 1770, which was a direct result of British policy.

It was a direct result of drought... duhr So Maratha's were not responsible for all the tens of millions who died under their watch? Can I get another victim story?

Yes, the Marathas could not control the weather, which is why they were not responsible for the people that died in their land from famine.

That is the stupidest thing I have heard all day and certainly not worthy of a DFI talking point. Now that I know what I am dealing with this conversation is futile.

 

[Armand2REP]

To put an end to this thread... the one thing I have learned without doubt.

India is still a nation of victims.

 

[A.V.]

This is new news and interesting :-

HAL plans to sell its advanced copters

 

[bhramos]

This is new news and interesting :-

HAL plans to sell its advanced copters

Thats good news but, will US and Russia allow to participate in the Tenders,
I heard last time, Colambia was Intrested in buying Arjun Tanks, But US pressed not to sell, as it want to sell Tanks, and Russia pressed that it was selling tanks to Venezuela,

now lets hope it does not happens here again...

 

[mayfair]

Either way, once the contracts are signed HAL has to shoulder the responsibility for assembling the bulk of MRCA planes. Sooner than later capability must match (and probably will) with the ambitions.

 

[gogbot]

The facts match my macroeconomic view that reveal India was not in a vacuum and its standing to the rest of the world had more to do with the rise of other economies as opposed to its own stagnation. What you are attempting is a revisionist history without looking at the external factors of why India's share fell and it wasn't due to the collapse of the Indian economy which never happened under British rule.

Well that's hardly true ,

India for all intents and purposes was absorbed into the British empire after the Sepoy mutiny.

Local industries were heavily taxed. Skill labor and craftsmanship had a huge decline.
India was essentially tuned into a gigantic primary producer , with everything being British controlled.
British owned the lands , they owned the companies that processed the goods. And there were massive tax's on Indian s who did make a living of the land.

India produced for pittance , British ships then carried everything off to England to be made into goods and then shipped all accorss the empire from there.

Simply put the reigns of India's economy were taken from here and wealth gained from her resources was sent over sea's.

The effect India had on the British Balance books , is enormous . Beyond the industrial revolution their control of India was what made they as wealthy are they were.

There was very little wealth in the country by the time British rule ended. whole industry's had to be rebuilt.
The Indian economy at the time was essentially a large supplier with not enough demand. There was no consumer base in India for the Industries the British did make.

 

[nrj]

Seriously guys,
Gupta empire, British rule, Muslim slaughters, Marathas, Chinese abacus in 'US doubting HAL capability' ??

--

Yes HAL is untested & maybe susceptible to adversaries if any. But, capability enhances & surprises in the times called for.

With Roemer & the teens gone, can anybody access the cables and tell us what they are chatting now?
" Mallu's AK sambar was too hot?? "

Maybe they were busy in spying HAL offices than interpreting IAF's call.

 

[Param]

Like the subcontinent was rich before the British got there? The caste system was prevalent then and it still exists today. Don't blame others for your own problems.

Some people after they become rich forget their past. They start thinking they always like that. Western Europe is a fine example.The newest example are the CHINESE, they forgot what their country was in the 1960s and 70s.
India today is not rich that does not mean it was always like that. Why do you think Alexander to Columbus wanted to reach India, to see slums?
The Europeans_ Portuguese, British,French,Dutch ,Danish you all exploited our country at took the wealth back to Europe. The British in particular impoverished us by shipping all raw materials to Britain and fueling their Industrial revolution, while we starved due to artificial famines created by them.

 

[civfanatic]

So the government is too poor to conduct trash collection instead of piling it on the streets?

Is the government too poor to build roads? Is the government too poor to build proper housing for slum dwellers? Are you going to blame bad infrastructure and housing on Indian culture too? I'm waiting for it...

Usa la cabeza antes de hablar.

Ask the cows as they slowly get their heads cut off or when they are crammed 10X over capacity into rail cars to die.

I talk to cows everyday. They tell me they are happy to be Indian citzens, because its the only country where cows can feel like gods.

Indian GDP stayed around the same level under colonial rule going up and down.

Stagnant economy + population growth = ?

Please tell me you know the answer.

The facts match my macroeconomic view that reveal India was not in a vacuum and its standing to the rest of the world had more to do with the rise of other economies as opposed to its own stagnation. What you are attempting is a revisionist history without looking at the external factors of why India's share fell and it wasn't due to the collapse of the Indian economy which never happened under British rule.

I'm more concerned with the stagnation of India's economy than the decline of India's share in the world economy (which follows by default), because this stagnation is what caused the impoverishment of the population, to the point where India had one of the lowest per capita incomes on earth at the time of Independence.

Other posters have already detailed the systematic British destruction of native Indian industries. It is you who is attempting a revisionist history by whitewashing European colonialism and its effects on the world.

I was talking about the Golden Age of the Muhgals, please try and keep up.

Lol

Do you realize that the Mughals are a dynasty and not a country? What was the Golden Age of the Bourbon Dynasty? You are comparing the Golden Age of a single dynasty with the Golden Age of an entire country?

Gupta Empire didn't even compare to Mughals.

Thanks for verifying, again, your complete ignorance.

Gupta Empire was 1500-2000 years before the Dark Ages... hardly contemporary.

Gupta Empire = 4th - 6th centuries C.E.

European Dark Ages = 5th - 10th centuries C.E.

The Gupta Empire was contemporary to the early Dark Ages. Go read a history book

It was a direct result of drought... duhr So Maratha's were not responsible for all the tens of millions who died under their watch? Can I get another victim story?

It was a direct result of British policy, including very high taxes (five times that of the pre-colonial amount), Company monopoly on grain, and laws restricting the establishment of famine reserves. None of this is true about the Marathas.

Why don't you do some actual reading on the topic like I suggested rather than reveal your ignorance on public forums: Dutt index

That is the stupidest thing I have heard all day and certainly not worthy of a DFI talking point. Now that I know what I am dealing with this conversation is futile.

You don't know jacksh*t about world history, much less Indian history.

Stick to la paja de los Rafales, at least you're good at that.

 

[civfanatic]

To put an end to this thread... the one thing I have learned without doubt.

India is still a nation of victims.

You wouldn't be saying this if I was criticizing Muslims instead of Europeans.

 

[mayfair]

The facts don't support this view.

The facts support a fair bit but not all that view.

 

[sandeepdg]

To put an end to this thread... the one thing I have learned without doubt.

India is still a nation of victims.

And France is a nation of egoistic, ill-informed chums like you !

 

[sandeepdg]

Leave it Civfanatic, some people are just bloody dumb to understand what being rational and being informed is all about ! They did rather harp on how much much they know from their distorted understanding of the world and it people.

 

[SuperCommandoDhruv]

Gora elites of USA and British are similar in many aspects, specially:

"They criticize/bi*ch in private amongst themselves about you, if they are jealous of you."

Remember this always.

USA will never appreciate an independent and strong India leading South-asian economic block, under single Rupee currency. HAL is very important pillar in military future of this economic block because of its rapidly expanding manfacturing capabilities(coming orders of LCA, LCH, LUH, LOH, AMCA, MRCA, Su-30MKI, FGFA etc.).

Roemer met HAL officials before he wrote that letter back home to Washington. He is showing his displeasure at how HAL babus didn't bend to his american wishes(plans) in bending future of Indian military complex.

This Ch*tiya Roemer was proposing that HAL should be banned from MRCA and whole work should be under control of Boeing and some american funded small Indian private companies(puppets), so that USA Government can control military complex in India.

As it turned out later, chu*iya underestimated our babus. Well done HAL!

 

[The Messiah]

Gora elites of USA and British are similar in many aspects, specially:

"They criticize/bi*ch in private amongst themselves about you, if they are jealous of you."

Remember this always.

USA will never appreciate an independent and strong India leading South-asian economic block, under single Rupee currency. HAL is very important pillar in military future of this economic block because of its rapidly expanding manfacturing capabilities(coming orders of LCA, LCH, LUH, LOH, AMCA, MRCA, Su-30MKI, FGFA etc.).

Roemer met HAL officials before he wrote that letter back home to Washington. He is showing his displeasure at how HAL babus didn't bend to his american wishes(plans) in bending future of Indian military complex.

This Ch*tiya Roemer was proposing that HAL should be banned from MRCA and whole work should be under control of Boeing and some american funded small Indian private companies(puppets), so that USA Government can control military complex in India.

As it turned out later, chu*iya underestimated our babus. Well done HAL!

Well said.

Hopefully many more Indians understand this.