United States backtracks on order of Javelin missile sale to India

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the reasons why DRDO is unable to develop a man-portable 3rd Gen ATGM might be our technological limitation to develop a good enough Seeker for it .. :noidea:
Check post above IR ATGW like NAG are considered 3rd generation.
 

shuvo@y2k10

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i am releived.i always thought that javelin was a poor option mainly because of it's inflated price and unreliability of it's supplier's to provide tot for indegeneous manufacture and i consider spike to be a much better alternative to javelin.now since this deal did not go through it will give drdo enough impetus to produce a man portable atgm.
 

Apollyon

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Check post above IR ATGW like NAG are considered 3rd generation.
I meant Man-Portable ... which are considerably smaller and lighter
and the question was can DRDO develop a Seeker small and lighter enough which can be integrated with a Man-Portable ATGM ..??

also can anyone clarify .. do AAD/PDV used a MMW Seeker and is Nag's MMW seeker a derivative of it ..??
 

Kunal Biswas

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I meant Man-Portable ... which are considerably smaller and lighter
and the question was can DRDO develop a Seeker small and lighter enough which can be integrated with a Man-Portable ATGM ..???
There is your answer, Should have seen the last page..

DRDO did have man-portable ATGM based on Lahat, Its laser guided better than Wire guided but not a pure fire and forget ATGM..



Credit: Sayareakd Sir.
 

Apollyon

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There is your answer, Should have seen the last page..
this one is Laser Guided ... not a True Fire and Forget 3rd Gen Man Portable ATGM .. :))
that's what i asked --->

and the question was can DRDO develop a Seeker small and lighter enough which can be integrated with a Man-Portable ATGM ..??
 

jackhammer2

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i am releived.i always thought that javelin was a poor option mainly because of it's inflated price and unreliability of it's supplier's to provide tot for indegeneous manufacture and i consider spike to be a much better alternative to javelin.now since this deal did not go through it will give drdo enough impetus to produce a man portable atgm.
The spike which is being considered by India is the MR and LR versions which will be installed on vehicles like BMPs so untill we don't test the SR version Spike cannot become an alternative however since both the missiles are same family and use same seekers they do have good chances of winning any contract .

BTW javelin was never beeen the poor option leave aside inflated price thing and apart from Spike tell me how many missiles currently can match the performance of Javelin this was the smartest move by the Army.
 

Apollyon

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Spike NLOS ---> 70Kg; 25Km (Heli Fired) .. evaluated for ALH ..??
Spike ER ---> 34Kg; 8.0Km (Vehicle Mounted) .. same as Nag
Spike LR ---> 14Kg; 0.2-4.0Km (Man Portable) .. can penetrate 700mm RHA
Spike MR ---> 14Kg; 0.2-2.5Km (Man Portable)
Spike SR ---> 5Kg; 0.2-0.8Km (Man Portable)
Mini-Spike ---> 5Kg; 1.3Km

in addition :

CLU : 5.0Kg
Battery : 1.0Kg
Tripod-Stand : 2.8Kg
Thermal Sight : 4.0Kg

Spike NLOS :

Spike NLOS can carry the entire family of warheads designed for the Spike,
Shaped-charge Anti-Tank,
Penetration Blast Fragmentation (PBR), enabling the missile to effectively strike targets beyond line of sight.
Offer selective targeting by the use of its integral EO guidance camera,
Can receive target data from remote target acquisition systems, such as airborne UAVs, or remotely operated via networked command and control systems.
The communications between the missile and operator is conducted over an optical fiber, enabling effective, broadband, secure two-way communications.
 

Kunal Biswas

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this one is Laser Guided ... not a True Fire and Forget 3rd Gen Man Portable ATGM .. :))
that's what i asked --->
Third-generation guidance systems rely on a laser, electro-optical imager (IIR) seeker or a W band radar seeker in the nose of the missile.
 

jackhammer2

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I hope this deal gets cancelled and as a repercussion we cancel the Apache deal too.
Really both Javelin and Apache will give us an unmatched anti tank capability against PA armour so why would IA will do the stupid thing by cancelling these orders I'm sure all this backtrack news have surely have left IA top brass in a turmoil.

Cancelling orders is easy but finding alternatives is difficult.:shocked:
 
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Will Panetta's India visit salvage Javelin missile deal? - Rediff.com News

Will Panetta's India visit salvage Javelin missile deal?

Ajai Shukla in New Delhi
A dangerous flashpoint in United States-India relations faces visiting US Secretary of Defence, Leon Panetta, who faces tough questions from Indian officials on Tuesday, writes Ajai Shukla

The US State Department has slashed India's request for Javelin anti-tank missiles, offering instead a smaller quantity that Washington sources say is "less than half of what India has requested for."

Indian Ministry of Defence officials are furious that Washington, an avowed strategic partner, has pared down India's requirement of Javelin missiles, even while arguing that defence sales are a cornerstone of the US-Indian strategic relationship.

"This (US reduced offer) is a deal killer. Washington will not dictate the quantity of weaponry we need. This will severely damage the prospects of US vendors in future arms contracts," a South Block official said.

This unexpected rebuff stems from the US Department of Political-Military Affairs, a state department office that examines the political fallout of proposed US arms sales. Pol-Mil Affairs, as this department is called, often nixes or curtails arms sales because they might "destabilise the regional military balance."

Neither the US embassy in New Delhi, nor the Ministry of External Affairs, is prepared to reveal the reason provided by Washington for slashing the Indian request. The Ministry of External Affairs and the MoD have not responded to requests for comments.

US embassy spokesperson, Peter Vrooman, said, "We don't discuss individual sales. Secretary Panetta looks forward to having an exchange with the Indian government on a broad range of issues."


Andrew Shapiro, the assistant secretary of state for Political-Military Affairs, had told Business Standard, in an exclusive interaction during his visit to New Delhi on April 17, that Washington had cleared the transfer of technology for manufacturing the Javelin missile in India.

Given that readiness to transfer high-end technology, the curbs placed by Washington on the missile numbers remain inexplicable.

The FGM-148 Javelin, built by US companies Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, is one of the two anti-tank guided missiles that the Indian army is evaluating for its 350-odd infantry battalions.

The other is the Spike, built by Israeli company, Rafael. These are both shoulder-launched, "fire-and-forget" ATGMs, which means that they autonomously track their targets after they are fired by a two-man crew.

Both missiles are scheduled to come to India for user evaluation trials later this year. However, the Javelin has already impressed the Indian army. During joint exercises with the US army, Indian missile crews have fired 10 Javelin missiles. All 10 hit their targets.

The US industry, which has heavy stakes in a successful Javelin sale to India, is sharply critical of the State Department for curtailing the Indian request.

"Offering a reduced number of missiles will almost certainly kill the Javelin deal; in fact it seems to almost be designed to be so. It seems as if Secretary of State Hillary Clinton herself remains unconvinced about the India relationship and is trying to set a different tone," complains an industry member.


A key US frustration in the defence relationship has been New Delhi's refusal to sign three defence cooperation agreements that Washington has pressed for -- a Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement; a Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation; and a Logistics Support Agreement.

New Delhi believes that signing these agreements would put it overtly in the US camp, diluting its "multi-aligned" foreign policy that emphasises strong relations with multiple foreign powers.

There are also growing frustrations in Washington over India's resistance to allow US "end-user" inspections of weaponry sold to Indian security forces. New Delhi regards end-user monitoring as a violation of sovereignty.
 

olivers

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Expect more deals with the US to fall through. They will even push a EU ban on arms sales to India. This is the new path this decade. The US knows we are moving not in the direction of UK style poodle alliance. They don't like the French style. India is the France of Asia.

Civil deal was killed first. Liability law in India and ENR restrictions in 2011 to create supply dependency on US and rest of the world.
China US hedge. (The unknown is what has changed in this hegde since Clinton visited last time. Please read history on the 1970's and how the US chose China over India. It's happening again?).

After this we had the Javalin incident.The Javalin incident should show any doubter on the ENR what the US position is. Javalin is conventional power. They don't want us to have it. Forget about an energy independent India backed through ENR transfers.
Economic attacks by downgrading ratings. 5.9% GDP growth isn't enough when the rest of the world is growing at a fast 1% or negative growth.(It's deliberate and out debt is entirely internal. No chance in hell of sovereign default.) Look at the Rupee now. It's a lot weaker than it needs to be. INR USD real valuation is at 30. We might have to grow some balls but the big IT companies won't let it happen.

India-US relationship is once again cold. How cold will it get. I think very very cold. It will get killed if Obama is re-elected. It might be a good thing. I don't have anything against the India-US alliance. We however don't have leaders with balls to do the right thing when it comes to this relationship. They are bought over by simple dinners with wine.

Being a "soft" state isn't going to be the right approach for India this decade. India has to grow in-spite of Pakistan-China and not with Pakistan-China. This trial by fire is what made China what it is today. They grew in-spite of Taiwan. India has to learn to do the same with China and Pakistan. Then we will have the high table and all the privileges.

Javalin is a lighter missile. Transfer of technology does not mean we can produce any number we want. We can only make the numbers authorized. So in reality we will be bound by these contracts. However the know-how with the way the missile is put together with our indigenous efforts will cut the development time in our IGMP. So don't be surprised if we still go for these missiles in smaller numbers if there is transfer of technology for producing less than half of our request.Our goal is very clear but the implementation is shoddy and offset due to personal greed and corruption. It's not all black and white. Expect a new Javalin made in India by 2017 in any case. Nag modified or otherwise. What will be interesting is will be develop it on our own or with Israel. Probably the thermal sights need to be imported. A lot of interesting things will happen now. Technology denial is a good thing. We are not exploring the Brazilian relationship too much. We should.
 
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mikhail

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wh ythe hell is U.S. stopping the sale of such an enormous quantity of javelin missiles to India:frusty:!on the other hand their defence secretary Mr.Leon Panetta has been camping here in India for the past 2 days urging us to buy weaponry from them!such a two faced liar state!::mad:
 

pack leader

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why do you care show them the finger and buy spike
it has better capabilities it is in service in 28 states
its 25% cheaper
you can buy "special versions" for Indian sf and counter artillery units like we do in the idf
mini spike can be used against infiltrators in the loc and bsf against rebels and traitors
 

olivers

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why do you care show them the finger and buy spike
it has better capabilities it is in service in 28 states
its 25% cheaper
you can buy "special versions" for Indian sf and counter artillery units like we do in the idf
mini spike can be used against infiltrators in the loc and bsf against rebels and traitors
There will be orders for spike. It's a given. I wonder if it will be co-development of a new version or off the shelf.
 
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trackwhack

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why do you care show them the finger and buy spike
it has better capabilities it is in service in 28 states
its 25% cheaper
you can buy "special versions" for Indian sf and counter artillery units like we do in the idf
mini spike can be used against infiltrators in the loc and bsf against rebels and traitors
I think the issue is the ban on some Israeli defence companies. However, under such circumstances when the US is trying to take advantage of the fact that other important firms are under a ban, I think it would be wise of our defence ministry to lift the ban and do the deal, thereby officially giving the US the finger.

It will be awesome if India becomes Obama's legacy - i.e. screwing up what could have potentially been a balanced and fruitful partnership.
 

Payeng

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Not sure but I think some defence web site had questioned the reason for choosing Javelin over Spike and the later is believed to be better performer, iirc it happened before blacklisting Israeli firms.

current Google listing do not help in digging out old news and report.
 

pack leader

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I think the issue is the ban on some Israeli defence companies. However, under such circumstances when the US is trying to take advantage of the fact that other important firms are under a ban, I think it would be wise of our defence ministry to lift the ban and do the deal, thereby officially giving the US the finger.

It will be awesome if India becomes Obama's legacy - i.e. screwing up what could have potentially been a balanced and fruitful partnership.
only imi is banned Rafael is in business in India
spider SAM
smart bombs
derby for lca
loc fence sensors IAI Rafael joint venture
 

pack leader

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btw : rumor has that the Russians are responsible for imi black listing
imi tank ammunition is superior and the Russians used their influence in the IA to screw imi over made up charges
 

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