UN Security Council Reforms

[badguy2000]

And to put it out there, Japan deserves a seat more than India or Brazil. Not that you guys don't deserve one, but we deserve it more : )

yes. Japan and german deserve more than India and Brazil indeed.


but with the rapid emergence of China , Japan has even less chance than India.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

I am extremely surprised at the innocense expressed here.

There will be NO new permenant members at the UN. If anyone wanted one, it would have been done a long time ago. The last time this happened was when the China seat shifted from Taipei to Beijing and that's because of the US effort and an agreement by the three members of the P5. Taipei, a permenant member had no say whatsoever. Taipei, a P5 member, not only lost her P5 seat but also kicked out of the UN as the representative of China.

So, people, given the above. Wake Up. The P5 is playing you. Some members of the P5 supports you mainly because they know you will be rejected by at least one other member. That goes for all countries. I am extremely surprised that no one had taken the hint that once Stalin rejected Canada, the one commonwealth country other than Britain who came to her defense, that people actually think Japan (an enemy), India (not even a dominion), South Africa and Brazil (not even a worthy participant) had a chance.

By the same token, we rejected the Mongolia lead Central Asian Republics who have lost more soldiers than the entire Western armies combined.

In short, stop believing the P5 had any interest in expanding, they're playing you for fools ... and you're falling for it.

 

[Yusuf]

OoE,

But then things change as a new world order comes up.
India and China are now being invited with open arms to the G8 summit. Any resolution passed by the big powers today consider India and China in the equation. Be it climate change or global economy etc.

Right now the UN is as good as irrelevant and to revive it, reforms are a must and will have to consider which way the wind is blowing.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

India and China are now being invited with open arms to the G8 summit. Any resolution passed by the big powers today consider India and China in the equation. Be it climate change or global economy etc.

But that has nothing to do with the UN. Japan made the League of Nations irrevelent by withdrawing. What makes you think that China and India or any other new power will want to prop up the old boy's club that is the UN?

Right now the UN is as good as irrelevant and to revive it, reforms are a must and will have to consider which way the wind is blowing.

You got the first part right.

 

[Yusuf]

But that has nothing to do with the UN. Japan made the League of Nations irrevelent by withdrawing. What makes you think that China and India or any other new power will want to prop up the old boy's club that is the UN?

You got the first part right.

Yes the G8 has nothing to do with the UN, but my point is that the the old major powers realize that new power centers are coming up and they want to/will have to accommodate them.

 

[Vinod2070]

Yes, UN is becoming irrelevant faster than ever because you can't have any legitimacy if you don't reflect the reality of the times.

The world has changed a lot since 1945. Europe no longer dominates it. So having 3 European countries out of 5 is nothing but a joke.

There should be at least 10-20 permanent members now, a majority from Asia but also from Africa.

Those playing these stupid little games are only going to lose relevance.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Yes the G8 has nothing to do with the UN, but my point is that the the old major powers realize that new power centers are coming up and they want to/will have to accommodate them.

20,000 nukes. Like it or not, the UN is the only place where the rest of the world can tell both the US and Russia to cool it ... or at least beg them to.

Yes, UN is becoming irrelevant faster than ever because you can't have any legitimacy if you don't reflect the reality of the times.

Sad as it is, the UN is the only voice the poor trodden has. As bad as Dafur is, it would be far worst without the UN there.

 

[Rage]

And to put it out there, Japan deserves a seat more than India or Brazil. Not that you guys don't deserve one, but we deserve it more : )

Curious. Outline the reasons for why you think Japan is more 'deserving' of a Security Council seat than India. Adopt a comprehensive approach if you will, and factor in the general implicit requirements of P-5 membership. It would seem to me that that by far is military prowess, strategic ambit and geographic / demographic size of state - factors upon which Japan does not nearly rival India. Brazil maybe, but India is not in the same league as that South American state.

 

[Yusuf]

20,000 nukes. Like it or not, the UN is the only place where the rest of the world can tell both the US and Russia to cool it ... or at least beg them to.

If having nukes is the sole criteria for having a SC seat, then count Indias couple of hundreds in.
Then Pakistan will follow.

Sir,
It has to do with economics, alliances, military power and an analysis of what the future is of the current crop of countries claiming their place in the comity of nations.
India is a growing economic power, slowly but surely developing a better alliance with the western powers, is at least a regional military power and the future of India is projected to be a great power in the coming years and that cannot be denied.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Yusuf,

Read what I wrote. The UN is the only place where the REST OF THE WORLD can tell BOTH THE US AND RUSSIA to cool it. The rest of the world's arsenal combine doesn't even come close to the authorized strength of either the US or Russia and never mind the component form nukes that they have in storage.

The LAST thing the world wants is a return to the 50,000 nukes of the Cold War days and all but 700 belongs to two powers.

 

[Vinod2070]

20,000 nukes. Like it or not, the UN is the only place where the rest of the world can tell both the US and Russia to cool it ... or at least beg them to.

Sad as it is, the UN is the only voice the poor trodden has. As bad as Dafur is, it would be far worst without the UN there.

Losing relevance doesn't mean there is no role for UN. It is operating at sub-optimal levels because of that and the direction is only downwards.

I don't see any voice for the downtrodden in the UN. It is what some there decide what is or should be the voice of the downtrodden.

But you are right in the sense that the P5 will not be giving up their exclusive domain easily. They will do it kicking and screaming when they have to.

Too many of the P5 are deriving their stature from the P5 seat, not lending honor to the seat. Your guess is as good as mine as to how long that can continue.

 

[Vinod2070]

And to put it out there, Japan deserves a seat more than India or Brazil. Not that you guys don't deserve one, but we deserve it more : )

Japan does deserve the seat. It deserved it more 2 decades back when it was a bigger economic power than it is now.

If the UN is going to be reformed as per the role of the members in the future, I am afraid Japan is not a rising country anymore. Japan's best days are behind her. She is still a great economic power but her relative power is on the decline.

The same is not the case with the other two members you listed. They are rising powers and deserve it more than anyone else.

Also, economic or hard power should not be the only criteria for an institution like the UN. The large and young populations of these countries also has to be taken into account.

 

[Yusuf]

Yusuf,

Read what I wrote. The UN is the only place where the REST OF THE WORLD can tell BOTH THE US AND RUSSIA to cool it. The rest of the world's arsenal combine doesn't even come close to the authorized strength of either the US or Russia and never mind the component form nukes that they have in storage.

The LAST thing the world wants is a return to the 50,000 nukes of the Cold War days and all but 700 belongs to two powers.

Yes Sir, its the place where the rest of the world can only "beg" to cool it and they continue to do what they want.
But then if you are concerned about giving voice to the rest of the world, then you have to reform so that the leading voices from the "rest of the world" can take their place on the high table and make their voices heard and also respected.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Iraq War mean anything to you?

 

[Yusuf]

Iraq War mean anything to you?

Precisely why i said that the rest of the world can only beg to get their voices heard, but then the US moves on with its own policy.

 

[Vinod2070]

Yusuf,

Read what I wrote. The UN is the only place where the REST OF THE WORLD can tell BOTH THE US AND RUSSIA to cool it. The rest of the world's arsenal combine doesn't even come close to the authorized strength of either the US or Russia and never mind the component form nukes that they have in storage.

The LAST thing the world wants is a return to the 50,000 nukes of the Cold War days and all but 700 belongs to two powers.

I would really love to understand what UN reform has to do with the number of nukes of USA and Russia.

They reduced their nukes not because of the UN but because they understood the folly of keeping so many nukes. The other UN memebrs had little or no role to play in that AFAIK.

The rest of the world telling them to cool it in the UN has little to do in the reduction and if or when they decide to go back to the bad old days.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

I would really love to understand what UN reform has to do with the number of nukes of USA and Russia.

Nothing but the UN was the only place where the world begged for peace during the Cuban missile crisis.

 

[badguy2000]

well, today, UN reform is impossible.

 

[Koji]

Curious. Outline the reasons for why you think Japan is more 'deserving' of a Security Council seat than India. Adopt a comprehensive approach if you will, and factor in the general implicit requirements of P-5 membership. It would seem to me that that by far is military prowess, strategic ambit and geographic / demographic size of state - factors upon which Japan does not nearly rival India. Brazil maybe, but India is not in the same league as that South American state.

Here is BIG reason #1:
United States 22.00%
Japan 16.62%
Germany 8.66%
United Kingdom 6.13%
France 6.03%
Italy 4.89%
Canada 2.81%
China 2.67%
Spain 2.52%
Mexico 1.88%
South Korea 1.80%
Netherlands 1.69%
Australia 1.59%
Brazil 1.52%
Switzerland 1.20%
Russia 1.10%
Other member states 16.99%

Where is India here? This is the contribution of the UN budget.

2 "strategic ambit and geographic / demographic size of state"
Are you serious? According to this logic then Canada, Afghanistan, Brazil, Australia all should be given consideration for a P5 seat. I don't see why a large population should be a factor. The security council is not the voice of the population, it's the body that develops security policies.

3. Military
We still have a more potent military than India, despite our low defense budget (it's still bigger than yours) and our defensive posture.

 

[badguy2000]

Here is BIG reason #1:
United States 22.00%
Japan 16.62%
Germany 8.66%
United Kingdom 6.13%
France 6.03%
Italy 4.89%
Canada 2.81%
China 2.67%
Spain 2.52%
Mexico 1.88%
South Korea 1.80%
Netherlands 1.69%
Australia 1.59%
Brazil 1.52%
Switzerland 1.20%
Russia 1.10%
Other member states 16.99%

Where is India here? This is the contribution of the UN budget.

2 "strategic ambit and geographic / demographic size of state"
Are you serious? According to this logic then Canada, Afghanistan, Brazil, Australia all should be given consideration for a P5 seat. I don't see why a large population should be a factor. The security council is not the voice of the population, it's the body that develops security policies.

3. Military
We still have a more potent military than India, despite our low defense budget (it's still bigger than yours) and our defensive posture.

well, Japan should have had chance in 1990s,when cold war ended and China had sitll not emerged yet....

but obviously you missed the chance......

India's hard power is not enough to deserve a veto ,with just a industry base even smaller than S.korea.