UN Security Council Reforms

[Yusuf]

India was never offered a seat in the UN. That was a pipe dream of some British Foreign Office who tried to load up the UNSC with their members. India had as much chance of having a seat as Mongolia. Truman and Churchill said no to Mongolia just as Stalin said no to Canada. Stalin was not even shown India.

The fact of the matter is that 3 egos determined the UNSC: Truman, Churchill, and Stalin. Once you understand that, then it would become obvious why no one else was ever offered a seat.

Sir, our history books are probably different.
Jawaharlal Nehru, benevolently gave up the seat to China.
"The first step to be taken is for China to take her rightful place, and then the question of India might be discussed separately," India's then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru wrote in a letter to the country's top political leaders – explaining why he supported Beijing.

 

[badguy2000]

Sir, our history books are probably different.
Jawaharlal Nehru, benevolently gave up the seat to China.
"The first step to be taken is for China to take her rightful place, and then the question of India might be discussed separately," India's then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru wrote in a letter to the country's top political leaders – explaining why he supported Beijing.

well, frankly speaking, it is Indian-style history books that are different from that outside India.

the seat of UNSC was "done" by big 3(Soviet ,USA and UK )in WW II.

At first, Soviet opposed to give veto and permanent seat to CHina and UK didn't think CHina derserved it ,either.
But USA firmly insisted that CHina should be "one of global policemens".
Under the pressure from USA, Soviet and UK retreated.

But as a compromision, USA also agreeed to support UK's ideas: "give a permanent seat to France too"!

At the same time, Stalin also insisted that Soviet should had 3 votes in UN:" one is Soviet's permanent seat, one is a seat of Burus ,and the other is for Ukrain",since British empire had canada ,austrialia,New zealand, South Africa own seats in UN.

 

[Yusuf]

well, frankly speaking, it is Indian-style history books that are different from that outside India.

Mate we have history books written here by historians, not the CCCP.

You either come up with facts or not speak at all.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Russia also used to give 'easy money' to Asian and African and then they required money from others to shore them up and their whole system collapsed.

So giving 'easy money' for political gains can ruin a country faster than one can say Jack Robinson!

Easy come and Easy go!

I appreciate the Chinese fear of India and Japan entering the UNSC. It will skew the hegemonic ambitions of China as the sole representative of Asia and will make it lose face and the crest that she is riding at present.

There is no doubt that China has made some mind boggling strides in all spheres and that is very creditable. One of the reason is that there is no dissension is because the Chinese as individuals are more interested in their own financial and economic growth than over social issues like human rights and democracy which actually mean nothing to them so long as they themselves are doing fine. This attitude is historical and is finetuned by the theory of Legalism where the State is more important than human individuals!! Therefore, so long as the State caters for the economic well being of the individual, it is irrelevant if human right abuses or totalitarian regime continues. I think that is an ideal way a country can progress since the citizens could not care less how it is achieved.

Yet, at the same time, with globalisation and with the isolation slowly being erased, the Chinese are getting restless. The rural population and those in the Western China and not on the seaboard or Beijing are realising that they are being taken for a ride, more so since they are not the 'true Hans' but the assimilated ones. That is why the last People Congress has taken cognisance of this issue, but it is hard to be resolved.

China is slowly becoming a pressure cooker and it may explode unless the dichotomies are addressed. The CCP will not give way come what may and so repressive methods will be the order of the day, the same way Falun Gong went since they were a highly disciplined and with a huge following that could be a threat to the CCP.

China is too full of dichotomies and it is to early to predict its future and its activities in the world and the UN.

Chinese aid to pakistan in the recent crisis was 1 million dollars for their ally ,a joke ; african countries probably gave much more. stingy superpower.


http://story.chinanationalnews.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/9366300fc9319e9b/id/501519/cs/1/

 

[badguy2000]

Chinese aid to pakistan in the recent crisis was 1 million dollars for their ally, african countries probably gave much more.

what Chinese gives Africa is not free aid, but commerical loan ,which has to be returned by cash or resource.

What Chinese gives Pakistan is free aid,

enormous commerical loan is still commerical loan, although it seems very moving.

 

[Yusuf]

Badguy,
In 1955, China was also nothing if India did not deserve a SC seat back then.
If it was the victors of WWII the takers of all, then India was very much on the winning side and infact did very well for the British forces who it represented.

 

[badguy2000]

Badguy,
In 1955, China was also nothing if India did not deserve a SC seat back then.
If it was the victors of WWII the takers of all, then India was very much on the winning side and infact did very well for the British forces who it represented.

in 1955, China still was the permannent member of UNSC and had veto .but the "China" at that time was " Republic of CHina" driven to Taiwan from Mainland China by Chinese communist party.

Why did india become permanent seat and veto?

1.India was a " country",but a colony without sovereighnty during WW II, giving india one vote meaned that UK owns two votes, which would decrease the voice of Soviet and USA and of course was not tolerated by Soviet and USA.


2.fairly speaking, India indeed devoted less than China during WW II.
During 1937-1941, China independently resisted millions of Japanese soliders for 4 years.
Even after 1941, Japanese still had to deployed over 1 million army in CHina.

As far as I know, Japanese usually deployed 20-30 divisions in CHina.
but in 1941, Japanese used only about 8 divisions to conquer the whole southeast Asia and make 100,000 soldiers of common wealth surrender in Singarpore.

China indeed failed to drive Japanese out independently ,but also indeed succeeeded to pull the main force of Japanese army into Chinese theatere.

 

[Yusuf]

India was offered the seat in 55. So where is the talk of UK having two votes? India was free then.

 

[badguy2000]

India was offered the seat in 55. So where is the talk of UK having two votes? India was free then.

frankly speaking, such a "tale" may be only popular in india.
As far as I know, In cold war, any change of UN strucutre was impossible when big 2 (soviet USA) were always quarreling .

1. "Republic of CHina"(ROC) who owns the permanent seats and veto was the ally of USA. It is impossible that USA allowed its ally's veto deprived off and was gifted to India.

2. " Peopel republich of CHina" (PRC)was the ally of Soviet and Soveit always support that the veto of CHina should be transfered from ROC to PRC.


so, India could not gain any support from either USA or Soviet when "offer a veto ".

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, our history books are probably different.
Jawaharlal Nehru, benevolently gave up the seat to China.
"The first step to be taken is for China to take her rightful place, and then the question of India might be discussed separately," India's then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru wrote in a letter to the country's top political leaders – explaining why he supported Beijing.

I am well aware of the diplomatic feelers that were out there in 55 but within the context of the day, they were no more than feelers and one that was quickly quashed when the West learned of it. The last thing anyone wanted was another pro-CCP P5 voice. The P5 seat was kept to Taiwan, ie RoC, if for no other reason than to keep the UN anti-CCP.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

you are right office and Indians at that time had helped the Empire win 2 fronts in ww2, 5 million Indians died in ww2 ,it would have made for a much better and more balanced UNSC if Nehru had accepted, and many of the rogue nations supported by China would not have been so emboldened with their nukes freely proliferated by China(n. korea,pakistan,Iran).

 

[Officer of Engineers]

If we were to take that as a measure, then the Central Asian Republics under Mongolia deserves an earlier entry than India.

 

[Yusuf]

. Lets get back to discussing all types of reforms for the UN. Besides India, Japan, Germany, Brazil are staking claim. There is outside chance of South Africa to give Africa a say.

 

[kautilya]

Today, china is in fact a mercantile isolationist ,who has powerful economy power but no interest to oversea miliatary adventure.

Don't make me laugh with "no interest in ... military adventure". China is an irredentist power.

But CHina low profile in miliatry oversea adventure doesn't mean that CHina has no such resource to support oversea adventure.

Actually your low profile, if you can call it that, is to reassure the world. Given your history it's understandable that countries worry about China. The Chinese have a low profile because if you worry people enough they'll band together to contain you. Today no one will publicly want to be seen as banding against you. Would you like to see what happens if you move too fast?

the power of CHIna today and USA before WW I come from two factors:

1. powerful industry base, ....{Clipped}
2.population:{clipped}

A large population is only the most recent determinant of power. History is full of powers that don't have a large population base.

I agree that an industrial base is important. That said the Japanese have a more advanced industrial base. Apart from nukes you're lower down on the Chain. So what makes you more important?

And while the Indian industrial base is not as well developed it isn't as far behind as you seem to think either.

Eventually they only reason they'll let you into the club is if you're willing to upset the status quo and get away with it. That'll come in time for India with Industrial development and for Germany and Japan when they can work up the national will again.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

China became a power simply by having a MFN status from USA to sell their cheap junk with preferential treatment.

 

[badguy2000]

Don't make me laugh with "no interest in ... military adventure". China is an irredentist power.



Actually your low profile, if you can call it that, is to reassure the world. Given your history it's understandable that countries worry about China. The Chinese have a low profile because if you worry people enough they'll band together to contain you. Today no one will publicly want to be seen as banding against you. Would you like to see what happens if you move too fast?



A large population is only the most recent determinant of power. History is full of powers that don't have a large population base.

I agree that an industrial base is important. That said the Japanese have a more advanced industrial base. Apart from nukes you're lower down on the Chain. So what makes you more important?

And while the Indian industrial base is not as well developed it isn't as far behind as you seem to think either.

Eventually they only reason they'll let you into the club is if you're willing to upset the status quo and get away with it. That'll come in time for India with Industrial development and for Germany and Japan when they can work up the national will again.

well, Japanese industry base is not bad,but frankly speaking ,I don't think its Industry capacity can be bigger than China today.

if you really compare the prodcution of industry , you will find easily that almost every industry section in china has bigger production than that in Japan,including cars, steel, food,electricity.coal,household appliance,concrete....etc......some of them are evern 3-4 times more than that of Japan

For exmple, CHina's steel production =USa+jAPAN+EU+Russia
China's concrete production>USA+JAPN+EU+Russia+INdia+canada+Autralia
China''s ecelctricity production is 2 time more than that of Japan.
the undervalued RMB usually makes people underestimate the real economy power of CHina.

 

[badguy2000]

Don't make me laugh with "no interest in ... military adventure". China is an irredentist power.



Actually your low profile, if you can call it that, is to reassure the world. Given your history it's understandable that countries worry about China. The Chinese have a low profile because if you worry people enough they'll band together to contain you. Today no one will publicly want to be seen as banding against you. Would you like to see what happens if you move too fast?



A large population is only the most recent determinant of power. History is full of powers that don't have a large population base.

I agree that an industrial base is important. That said the Japanese have a more advanced industrial base. Apart from nukes you're lower down on the Chain. So what makes you more important?

And while the Indian industrial base is not as well developed it isn't as far behind as you seem to think either.

Eventually they only reason they'll let you into the club is if you're willing to upset the status quo and get away with it. That'll come in time for India with Industrial development and for Germany and Japan when they can work up the national will again.

Frankly speaking, if measure by quantity, the output of India industry is still not in the top 10 in the world and in the league of S.korea .

Furthermore , the tech and quality of India industry is much poorer than that of S.korea

such a industry base can not support a status of real power.

 

[Known_Unknown]

For exmple, CHina's steel production =USa+jAPAN+EU+Russia
China's concrete production>USA+JAPN+EU+Russia+INdia+canada+Autrali a
China''s ecelctricity production is 2 time more than that of Japan.
the undervalued RMB usually makes people underestimate the real economy power of CHina.

OK, let's talk. The US has 1/4th of your population, and yet has almost 4 times the nominal GDP. That means that an average Chinese is 16 times poorer than his US counterpart. Japan has less than 1/10th your population, and yet has a higher GDP. Forget the US, just to reach Japan's level of prosperity will take you decades.

Your production is more exactly because you're a low cost, poor country. Countries like the US, Japan, and most European countries outsource manufacturing to poor countries like China because they have cheap labour and a government who is in cahoots with corporations and which tries to suppress human rights/workers' rights unlike most democracies. Nothing to be proud of. If anything, it just shows you how far you have to go before you can compare China to western countries.

 

[badguy2000]

OK, let's talk. The US has 1/4th of your population, and yet has almost 4 times the nominal GDP. That means that an average Chinese is 16 times poorer than his US counterpart. Japan has less than 1/10th your population, and yet has a higher GDP. Forget the US, just to reach Japan's level of prosperity will take you decades.

nominal GDP can not prove much .

I have been to Hongkong,which nominal GDP is also 10-15 time more that in mainland CHina.

Frankly speaking, as a whole, the real life quality in urban area of mainland CHina can catch up with the real life quality of Hongkongese in 10-15 years at most.

Furthermore, even now, Chinese undustrialized urban area like Pearl Delta and Yangtsi DElta in fact already has life quality almost as high as HOngkong ,Taiwan and S.korea.

RMB is unvervalued tooooo much.

after all , the real life quality is no decided by quantity of USD you have ,but the quantity of cars, house,service and other comodities you can afford.

 

[Known_Unknown]

nominal GDP can not prove much .

I have been to Hongkong,which nominal GDP is also 10-15 time more that in mainland CHina.

Frankly speaking, the real life quality in urban area of mainland CHina can catch up with the real life quality of Hongkongese in 10-15 years at most.

Furthermore, even now, Chinese undustrialized urban area like Pearl Delta and Yangtsi DElta in fact has life quality almost as high as that in HOngkong.

RMB is unvervalued tooooo much.

Nominal GDP proves everything. PPP measurement of GDP maybe good for comparing the price of potatoes, or in your case, noodles, but as soon as you start moving up the value chain, PPP is bust. A laptop costs the same in China as it does in the States (excluding price distorting factors such as taxes, subsidies etc). Same applies for any engineering goods, high value chemicals etc. If you want your people to prosper, you cannot continue to pay them peanuts. As they prosper, they will demand higher wages, and once they do, the cost of manufacturing or designing things goes up. Simple logic.

Anecdotes regarding your feelings about HK don't prove anything. And in any case, HK is nowhere close to Japan or the US.