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I have a very interesting debate going at
Foreign aid stopped to India - Vaccines given to poor. - Page 11
Also read my replies to this poster.
Foreign aid stopped to India - Vaccines given to poor. - Page 11
Quote Originally Posted by mercurydancer View Post
rayc.
Just to put a different slant on things - India wanted independence and got it. That was at the stroke of midnight August 15 1947. Whatever happens after that moment, is your problem. Thats what independence means. Its a little like being a virgin - you either are or are not. No half measures.
So, when you had independence, how many died? Half a million? More? Well done. You got independence and then went straight to genocide. Dont blame it on the previous rulers.
I reject your comparison between the cholera rates under British rule as to now, as antibiotics were not widely available then, and now they are, and very cheap to produce, and effective with cholera. I havent checked the figures, but I would think that you could produce enough antibiotics to reduce the death rate to about 2% for cholera but other bacterial infections too, for the cost of a telecommunications satellite. It would make economic sense to ensure that your population and workforce is well cared for and productive. Also, The World health Organisation was created after Indian independence, and WHO have collected most of the data for epidemiology world wide since it was created. Before that, the data is largely unreliable.
There is an elephant in the room. Its nuclear weapons. India has them and so does Pakistan. If my memory serves me well, you two dont get on that well, and some situations have been the greatest threat to nuclear war since the Soviets and the USA had a contretemps over Cuba. If you need satellites for defence purposes, to see where the Babur Missiles are, then say so and dont hide behind a telecommunications screen.
India has possibly produced one of the wisest and most important men in history, and one I greatly admire, The great Mahatma. That man's words and deeds illuminate my life.
I know you dont want to get involved in the independence issue, but divide and rule- you cannot just raise an issue then just expect no response. If I recall my history correctly, Nerhu, Jinnah, Singh, Azad and Ambedkar all agreed to the lines of the partition. I stated before that at the minute of Independence then its your problem. All we British did was leave you to your own will... which was to kill hundreds of thousands of people, both Pakistani and Indian. The word I would use was genocide. Its a nasty word but applicable. Does anyone forgive the Nazis for killing Jews? Not at all. Why should the Partition genocide be considered any less horrific and unacceptable?
With the nuclear weapons comment, I think I have trapped you leg before wicket, a concept I am sure you are familiar with. You did not respond to a valid point, and the lack of response is informative in itself. The Russians are very worried about a Pakistan/India nuclear exchange. I cannot comment on the US/UK view.
For the cholera - the vaccine is not that effective medically, but was the vaccine deployed within India? The answer is no. My point remains... India fails in controlling and preventing cholera in its population. The fact remains that many thousands die each year of this disease within India. If you cannot come up with facts then chup kar.
Its not bait, its reasoned discussion. We cannot change the past, but the past changes us. When we view it our opinions change.
Oh dear, I doubt your version of history. The Muslim League was a dominant party in India in the 1940s. The schism was of your own making. Jinnah may have been a member of Congress but he was the focal point of the schism. Direct Action Day? Does that sound familiar? It would be if you lived in Kolkata. Yes it was pre-independence, but all we Brits did was hold back the divide between the Hindus and the Muslims. You simply let loose big style after the declaration of independence. Genocide? Yes the accusation still stands. The Nazis had a well known programme of genocide. We do not forgive them now, and the Nazi genocide was before the partition. So are you are saying that some genocide is history and is in the past, and should not be allowed to have any influence on our views in the present day and others are not? The political and cultural tensions between Pakistan and India indicate that these matters are far from being forgotten.
The nuclear issue - Well, the USSR doesnt now exist. It has not for a while. As a steely-eyed Cold War Warrior I had more than a passing interest in the USSR. Its odd that I now visit Russia frequently. You must be very old if you can recall the Cuban missile crisis as I was less than two years old at the time. There were very few deployable (if any) atomic weapons in the Berlin Crisis, and the Soviet Union had none, so that doesnt really count. May I point out that nuclear weapons have been deployed. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so its not an insane move to use them. Its history. As I pointed out earlier, we learn from history.
Indo-Pakistani tension could easily escalate to a nuclear exchange, and is the highest risk of nuclear war in the world at the present, and has been for a good few years. As your Indian delivery systems improve, and the Pakistanis develop theirs, it increases the risk. With Russia and the west, the focus has been on reducing the risk. (OK I will admit that the reduction of risk means that we have reduced the nuclear arsenals from enough to destroy the world 5 times over to 3 times over..) Just a point - if the partition problems are purely historical, why are you targetting each other with nuclear weapons? I suggest that the tensions are still there.
Just a small point, I am an Englishman, (by the grace of God) but lived for my very early years to my teens, in part of a city which had a very large Hindu population. I have been eating chaat and dhals, puris and pakoras for as long as I can remember. In fact, I celebrate Diwali too! So some comments, such as chup kar are very familiar to me.
f you raise issues then do not expect to be able to stand back from the response. I understand that for you it is a foreign site, but as you post here, and in English, I will challenge you in the same manner.
The Berlin crisis I refer to was the one in 1948-49. Now that was a crisis, and a big one too! The Berlin airlift may mean nothing to you, but look at the facts. Not opinion, but facts. The Berlin "crisis" in 1961 was one of many cold war crises in that year and the following two years. I'm sure that the nuclear submarine targetting and accidents (with K19 in particular) were far more worrying. Historically they were all the same thing. It could be traced back to the first Soviet nuclear weapon test and Sputnik launch in 1957.
I do visit both Bharat Rakshak and Pakistani Defence Forum with regularity. I get a balanced view. In cricket, thats your comment put across the boundary for at least a four, if not a six.
So, to summarise, the Direct Action Day organised by Jinnah was not significant and did not escalate tensions between Hindus and Muslims? Partition did not cause the death of hundreds of thousands? As I said before, you cannot select which facts of history you approve of and those which you do not. You quote a reference to rewriting Pakistani history, which I understand, but do not accept. Historical process has two main elements. The first is to establish the facts as to what happened, and the second is a subjective view derived from the facts. Your review of the The mutual tensions between India and Pakistan are not of British cause. Direct Action Day and the slaughter in Kolkata are facts. The number of deaths in the partition are facts. (I would describe those deaths as genocide, and its hard to differentiate the Indian genocide to the Pakistani genocide) Those tensions, are of your making, and are of nothing to do with British rule. As I have said before, at the stroke of midnight 15 August it became your problem entirely.
Whilst I may be harsh and unremitting with my comments, I do hope that you accept that we are in a reasoned discussion, and there is no insult or ad hominem attack intended. I can understand if you feel that the chup kar phrase is a little strong, but this is ARRSE, where such responses are normal, in almost any language. You should hear me insult in Russian! More to the point, I appreciate a strong discussion.
Any takers?"Direct Action day is all that you know?" No I know an awful lot more than that, but I pressed the point because you have not responded to my comments. You asked if there were problems before partition. I said yes there were. Direct Action Day for one. I did say that I would treat your posts with respect, but I require that the respect is returned. You immediately go straight to insult. So badir, keep it that way.
I have clarified WHICH Berlin crisis we are talking about. I am referring to the 1948-9 one. We may have been mistaken in the first instance before we established which event we were referring to. Now we are clear on that point, what you have posted is tripe "So As far as your comment that there was no nuclear worry during the Berlin Crisis, I have posted the CIA link. Therefore, your ducking and obfuscation does not help! " I was accurate in my comments that the Berlin airlift was non-nuclear. I will continue that the crises of those turbulent years between 1959 and 1963 were numerous, and the Berlin one of 1959 was minor in nature compared to the enormity of the other issues of that time.
"By visiting Indian and Pakistani forums will not answer your question.
Start the thread with the issues you have raised and then get the reactions." I do not know if you are just angry but you asked if I had looked at Indian websites to see what was said. I merely answered that I had. And I drew my own conclusions. I do read Bharat Rakshak and PDF with regularity. That is what they are there for. And if I wish to draw conclusions from them I may.
Elphinstone in the 1860s had a completely different mindset to that of the early 20th century. To quote his "Divide and Rule" speech is to ascribe a policy which was decades out of use before the world wars. We did not create the language and religious divides, merely recognised that they existed, and for the most part, stopped you from tearing yourself apart. The All India Muslim League were pressing for a separate nation in 1906. Do you recall the demands of Iqbal? No British infulence at all apart from stopping the lot of you going into civil war, which you did anyway in 1947. All we did was keep the Indians and the Pakistanis apart for some decades. You got what you wished for in 1947 and immediate bloodshed and forced deportations, pitched battles and murderous rampages through cities occurred. Possibly you have forgotten the massacre in Lahore? So bakland, listen and be educated.
Also read my replies to this poster.