U.S. May Allow India to Join JSF Effort

[Crusader53]

Well that's your opinion ! Everybody is free to have one. The expected price of the PAKFA will be 100 million dollars according to government sources, which is still quite less than the 132 million dollars projected cost of the F-35, I can bet on my two cents that it won't come cheaper than a $100 million anyhow. And as you said, if history has anything to do, we all know that all Russian aircrafts are cheaper than equivalent American platforms. And please don't crib about that poor serviceability thing every time, if you can't find anything worthwhile to add. We had serviceability problems with the Migs, but that was in the past. There were hardly any problems with the Su-30s, since it was a relatively new platform as compared to other Russian origin aircraft in our inventory. Something that is 30-40 years old is bound to have serviceability and quality issues, no matter how hard you try. This is a new platform that we are jointly developing with the Russians. The gains here are immense as compared to buying something off the shelf from another nation.

At the beginning of Production the F-22 cost over 300 Million per copy and it's now down to ~ 133 Million after a little over a 100 aircraft produced. So, it's laughable that some want to throw around a similar price tag for the F-35. Sure in the first few years the price will be high but it will come down as numbers go up. Especially, considering the vast numbers of F-35 that will be constructed........


In short it laughable to expect anyone to believe the F-35. Which, has a single engine. That was designed from the start to be much more economic that the F-22. To be ~ the same price.

As for the PAK-FA the 100 Plus Million is Russia's own number and what fighter doesn't cost more than originally projected. It's also equipped with not one but two similar sized engines. Plus, the fact its going to be produced in far fewer numbers than the F-35


Really, it's a safe bet the PAK-FA will cost more to own and operate than the F-35. Which, is expected. Just as the same could be said for the F-22.

 

[Crusader53]

Good point, mate ! Especially regarding to the price that we would offer, it will be a very good deal.

Higher price and less capable............Sorry, your logic escapes me???

 

[Crusader53]

Yeah if you look at it that way' but there is something called stability. Neither JSF nor Japan are having right now in terms of economy and costs. Japanese are an all time low right now and the JSF is already shooting through the roof in costs.

That is not supported by fact.........

 

[Singh]

At the beginning of Production the F-22 cost over 300 Million per copy and it's now down to ~ 133 Million after a little over a 100 aircraft
produced.

You are talking about flyaway costs, What about sunk costs ? The development costs were close to 70billion $ !!

 

[Minghegy]

you don't think J 20 is best thing that happened to the US , in terms of sales in that region. Japan is not going to wait on some other 5th gen aircraft.

If F35 cuts half of its price, then you are right.
Maybe J20 will be cheaper than F35, Lockheed Martin has a serious problem than they can't work without burning money.

 

[Crusader53]

You are talking about flyaway costs, What about sunk costs ? The development costs were close to 70billion $ !!

The only price that matters is the one the customer is going to pay. All this spin about one price or another. Is more "Politics" than "Fact".....


Recent Quote......

Sept. 23, 2010, 3:07 p.m. EDT

Lockheed, Pentagon agree on a fixed-fee contract for the F-35


By Christopher Hinton, MarketWatch
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Lockheed Martin Corp. signed a fixed-fee contract with the Pentagon to provide 32 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters at 15% to 20% below an independent cost estimate made earlier this year, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday.

 

[sandeepdg]

Higher price and less capable............Sorry, your logic escapes me???

Well, just as the F-35, the initial costs of the PAK-FA will be high and will come down when it enters mass production, we will be buying 250-300 of the FGFA and Russia will buy an equal number of PAK-FA and eventually both countries will increase their numbers. Again you are bringing up the capability factor, what makes you think that everything Russian will be less capable than the American one ?? Read your history well, and you will see all Russian 4th generation, 4+ genr. as well as earlier generation aircrafts have more or less equivalent capability as compared to their American counterparts. And, frankly just like your brain is hardwired to believe that every non-American defense tech is inferior, I will also continue to say that the PAK-FA or our FGFA will be nothing less than the F-35, rather I believe it will be even better !

 

[FGFAPilot1]

Well, just as the F-35, the initial costs of the PAK-FA will be high and will come down when it enters mass production, we will be buying 250-300 of the FGFA and Russia will buy an equal number of PAK-FA and eventually both countries will increase their numbers. Again you are bringing up the capability factor, what makes you think that everything Russian will be less capable than the American one ?? Read your history well, and you will see all Russian 4th generation, 4+ genr. as well as earlier generation aircrafts have more or less equivalent capability as compared to their American counterparts. And, frankly just like your brain is hardwired to believe that every non-American defense tech is inferior, I will also continue to say that the PAK-FA or our FGFA will be nothing less than the F-35, rather I believe it will be even better !

It will be much better than the F-22:india1:

 

[sandeepdg]

It will be much better than the F-22:india1:

I also hope so, mate ! That will shut up the Yanks for good.

 

[Atul]

The F-35 prototype is already flying since 2006, & with nearly 10 odd partners already in the program, INDIA will have no significant inputs to contribute to the program at this stage of the aircraft development. the offer is just to push in the F-16 & F/A-18E/F in a winning position in the race for MRCA. the F-35 is expected to roll out some where in late 2016, has already got a big list of orders to cater, so by the time INDIA has its jets ready it will be as late as 2025-30??

INDIA should not fell in this US trap, Coz the Sukhoi PAK-FA will roll out by 2016 & since it is jointly being developed by Russia & India, we can expect the first lot of 50 jets to join in the IAF by 2020 & by 2025 the twin seat FGFA will be inducted.

Secondly the US need INDIA more than we need them, One thing must be remembered, to make to F-35 more cost effective, the US is more desperate to sell them to the IAF. Finally the US does not believe in the Concept of TOT & the Offset clause in the MRCA is making life more miserable for the US.

 

[RebateKing]

And as you said, if history has anything to do, we all know that all Russian aircrafts are cheaper than equivalent American platforms.

well, if history is what you care, you would easily come to the conclusion that in every past conflict, russian aircrafts had been totally dominated by American counterparts.

 

[debasree]

if us willing to share its tecnolodgy with us,then we should go for this bird,it will be a great ditterence against china

 

[ace009]

Although I know that's the case, I am not sure that it means much. Pilot training and actual available technology in a combat aircraft are never equivalent. I would like to look at the few cases where the two sides had similar training and technology and were operating Western vs Russian planes.
Something like this ... at the indiandefenceforum.com thread

http://www.******************/forums/f32/modern-fighter-combat-records-3768/

but showing which fighters faced off and who won/ lost how many.

Maybe the Iran-Iraq war?The Arab - Israeli wars?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Yom_Kippur_War

Also, most soviet A/C exported in the last century were legacy models with lower performance than in actual soviet planes. In addition, soviet planes from the 1970s had limited range since their oppressive government were always scared of potential pilot defections. So, a real good comparison will be welcome, without a fan-boy di*k measurement attitude.

 

[Crusader53]

Well, just as the F-35, the initial costs of the PAK-FA will be high and will come down when it enters mass production, we will be buying 250-300 of the FGFA and Russia will buy an equal number of PAK-FA and eventually both countries will increase their numbers. Again you are bringing up the capability factor, what makes you think that everything Russian will be less capable than the American one ?? Read your history well, and you will see all Russian 4th generation, 4+ genr. as well as earlier generation aircrafts have more or less equivalent capability as compared to their American counterparts. And, frankly just like your brain is hardwired to believe that every non-American defense tech is inferior, I will also continue to say that the PAK-FA or our FGFA will be nothing less than the F-35, rather I believe it will be even better !

Well, it what aspect it Russian Equipment better than American???

 

[civfanatic]

Well, it what aspect it Russian Equipment better than American???

They're helluva lot cheaper.

 

[Crusader53]

They're helluva lot cheaper.

When your life is on the line. Being cheaper is overated..........

 

[sandeepdg]

Well, it what aspect it Russian Equipment better than American???

Well, other than those ancient Migs (21, 23, 27), no Russian weaponry has had serious under performance issues ever. Look at the T-72, T-90, Smerch MLRS, the Kilo subs, the IGLA (SA-18) SAM, the Su-30 MKI, Mi-25 and Mi-35 gunships, the Brahmos missile, AK-630 CIWS, the Talwar class stealth frigates, Ka-28 and Ka-31 choppers etc. They are many more such examples, they perform with very high standards and have a price tag we can afford.

 

[sandeepdg]

well, if history is what you care, you would easily come to the conclusion that in every past conflict, russian aircrafts had been totally dominated by American counterparts.

Well, that proves your understanding of history is as limited as your pal, C53. What you are quoting is a known fact that those aircraft were operated by countries with a highly substandard and dubious airforce and pilot training programs. None of them involved a worthy competitor.

 

[sandeepdg]

if us willing to share its tecnolodgy with us,then we should go for this bird,it will be a great ditterence against china

US is not sharing anything with us, mate, they want us to partner for the sake of us loosening our purse strings, and lower their expenses. The PAK-FA is more than enough deterrence for all our future threats, irrespective of whether they originate from the East or West. And so is the AMCA.

 

[nrj]

India: No F-35 Offer From U.S.

India has received no U.S. offer to sell any fifth-generation aircraft, Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony said Feb. 9, rebutting reports that Washington had proffered the F-35 Lightning II.

Speaking to reporters after opening AeroIndia 2011 here, Antony said India is not going back on its commitment to help Russia develop a fifth-generation combat jet.

He said Moscow and New Delhi have resolved all of their differences on the project, which aims to produce an aircraft that can enter service with the Indian Air Force in 2017.

Source

and all that unnecessary noise..........