TYPE 214 SUB VS AMUR 1650 SUB A Layman's analysis

[arnabmit]

Actually just the opposite. 950 has VLS, 1650 does not.

See
Amur1650 sub has option for VLS system for brahmos meanwhile Amur 950 has torpedo launched tube releasing AsCM option ,I think IN wants a VLS system launched capabilty

 

[Armand2REP]

Surface or submerged & what is cite for that spec?

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/naval-warfare/27808-lada-class-submarine-deemed-failure.html

 

[W.G.Ewald]

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/naval-warfare/27808-lada-class-submarine-deemed-failure.html

Link also alludes to problems with sonar as well as engine.

 

[arnabmit]

@Drsomnath999

Please include Amur-950 as well in the poll.

Actually just the opposite. 950 has VLS, 1650 does not.

 

[p2prada]

Make a better poll with all the contenders. Even the French (Scorpene) and Spanish (S-80) are high on the list.

Using MRCA analogy,
Italian S1000 is a westernized Amur 950. It is the Gripen of the sub deal.

Amur 1650 is the F-16 B60. Heck even the Chinese will have it, so its like our enemy will know about the "F-16." It can also be compared to Mig-35. That's because both F-16 B60 and Mig-35 are better versions of their earlier variants. Amur is also a major upgrade to the Kilo class.

Scorpene (deluxe version) is like Rafale. We have its previous cousin (older Scorpene), so tooling, training and maintenance is similar. Just like Rafale is to Mirage-2000.

Type 216 is probably the heaviest sub and can be compared to the SH.

S-80 is a heavier version of the Scorpene, so we can call it the EF-2000.

So, this may help you decide.

If you want my opinion on the subs, I would say we stick to Scorpene (or even S-80 if we get a better deal) or fall back on the safest option, Amur 1650 where we have a lot of experience in many ways, both inside the sub and outside it. But falling back on Amur would also mean making our entire sub fleet dependent on the Russians and this includes Arihant in some ways. If we go for the Scorpene / S-80, our shipyards can begin work immediately. With S-80 we have the option of diversifying our supplier list to include the Spanish Navantia instead of relying only on Russian Rubin and French DCNS.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Actually just the opposite. 950 has VLS, 1650 does not.

OOps sorry My mistake

@Drsomnath999

Please include Amur-950 as well in the poll.

Well i cant do that
as i am not the mod

BTW amur 1650 was mentioned by indian navy i think

 

[Drsomnath999]

RFP for $11.8-billion Indian Navy submarine project soon

The request for proposals (RFPs) for the $11.8-bn Project 75-I submarines of the Indian Navy is expected to be issued shortly.

Senior officials in the ministry of defence (MoD) told FE, ''By mid-September-October, the delayed RFP will be issued. The Defence Acquisition Committee had already cleared the proposal; however, it was not issued as some more changes were made to the initial document.''

''Two submarines would be acquired from a selected foreign shipyard and the remaining four would be built by the state-owned Mazagon Dock and Hindustan Shipyard. Apart from plans to allow private local shipbuilders to participate in this project, the BrahMos' naval version is expected to be added on to these submarines.'' The BrahMos missile is fully ready for fitment in the Project 75-I(India) submarines of the Indian Navy in vertical launch configuration, which will make the platform (submarine) one of the most powerful weapon platforms in the world," said BrahMos CMD and CEO A Sivathanu Pillai, after the underwater Brahmos Launch.

Foreign companies, including Rosoboronexport's Amur 1650 (Russia), DCNS's Scorpene (France), HDW Type 214 (Germany) and Navantia's S-80 (Spain) were the possible candidates for the P75-I $11.8-billion project. However, officials said the Spanish company has withdrawn its technical specifications due to weight issues with their submarine.

With dismal underwater combat capability due to the tardy rate of acquisition of submarines, the Indian Navy plans to oversee and fast-track all its submarine acquisition plans to match its fleet with that of its neighbouring countries.

The primary focus of the Indian Navy is the Project-75 India (P-75i) programme, wherein the acquisition of six new stealth submarines, equipped with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as AIP (air-independent propulsion) for enhanced underwater capability, is envisaged. The plan is to directly import two submarines from the foreign collaborator eventually selected, with the next three being built at MDL in Mumbai, and the sixth at Hindustan Shipyard in Visakhapatnam under transfer of technology.

While the Indian Navy has been anxious to get the P-75i project rolling, the earlier programme — Project-75, which involves construction of six Scorpene submarines at the state-owned Mazagon Docks, in collaboration with DCNS of France — has been delayed until 2015.

India has almost all major components of P 75i ready indigenously. Larsen & Toubro's UG NX5 & PLM Software Team Centre has the capability for design and development of structural and engineering parts. With design inputs from DRDO and Indian Navy's design outfit, L&T's Submarine Design Centre created detailed engineering for nuclear submarine, INS Arihant, using the latest 3D modeling and product data management software. L&T- built launchers have been used for firing both underwater Brahmos Missile and nuclear-capable 750-km K-15/B-05 missiles. The company also devised the firing circuit for BrahMos on the lines of Harpoon missile.

RFP for $11.8-billion Indian Navy submarine project soon | idrw.org

 

[arnabmit]

Either bigger Scorpenes or Amur-950. Don't think HDW has much chance.

I would really hope for Amur-950.

 

[rohit b3]

New Policies are passed that everything will be Indian, especially after these scams.

But at the end of the day all imports-Subs,Howz Artelliery,etc

Are they trying to say that after designing and building a 6000 Ton Nuclear Sub, no Indian shipyard can design a 3000 Tons diesel sub?

I guess everyone already knows about the huge kickbacks recieved in the Scorpene deal?

 

[p2prada]

Either bigger Scorpenes or Amur-950. Don't think HDW has much chance.

Google Type 216.

I would really hope for Amur-950.

Why not Amur 1650 too? It is bigger and will obviously be better.

 

[bose]

We should think of a new shipyard to build the P-75I specific submarines and free MDL to continue with the Scorpene and its upgrades... MDL should continue with DCNS collaboration for future bigger Scorpene with AIP & VLS options... there by keeping out DCNS in the P-75I equation...

Amur 1650 with full TOT will be a good option for India...

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

We should think of a new shipyard to build the P-75I specific submarines and free MDL to continue with the Scorpene and its upgrades... MDL should continue with DCNS collaboration for future bigger Scorpene with AIP & VLS options... there by keeping out DCNS in the P-75I equation...

Amur 1650 with full TOT will be a good option for India...

List of major Shipyards in India (other than MDL) capable of submarine construction:

1. Cochin Shipyard Limited, Kochi

2. Goa Shipyard Limited

3. Hindustan Shipyard Limited, Visakhapatnam

4. Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Company Limited, Gujarat

Pipavav Defence has already tied up with MDL and French DCNS.

 

[bose]

List of major Shipyards in India (other than MDL) capable of submarine construction:

1. Cochin Shipyard Limited, Kochi

2. Goa Shipyard Limited

3. Hindustan Shipyard Limited, Visakhapatnam

4. Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Company Limited, Gujarat

Pipavav Defence has already tied up with MDL and French DCNS.

Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Company Limited, Gujarat will be a good option for P-75I...

 

[arnabmit]

Google Type 216.

I was thinking mostly because of commonality and running costs. We are operating Kilo Class and Amur should be familiar. We would be using Scorpenes, so more scorpenes should be familiar. However we have already retired all our old HDW vessels and operational and maintenance experience would have to be rebuilt from scratch.

Also, the onboard hydrogen generation concept in the Amur vessels for AIP is worth looking into. Same for the new VSHORAD capability of new scorpene vessels.

Why not Amur 1650 too? It is bigger and will obviously be better.

Amur 950 is smaller, stealthier, more cost effective, yet more heavily armed... and has VLS cells to launch Brahmos.

 

[pankaj nema]

I think Russians should FORGET about Project 75 I ie
India's NEXT Submarine Acquisition programme
after TODAY's accident

Better get More Scorpenes ASAP

 

[mikhail]

I think Russians should FORGET about Project 75 I ie
India's NEXT Submarine Acquisition programme
after TODAY's accident

Better get More Scorpenes ASAP

after the recent disaster i think we should order 6-10 Amur class submarines a.s.a.p. and perhaps after the completion of the Type-216 class project we'll order 5-6 submarines of that class.in this way we'll get the best of the tecnologies of both the West and the Russians and the cost will also be reasonable(around $500 millions each).so if we acquire around 10 of these beasts we'll have to pay around $5 billions which is quite a reasonable deal considering the fact that we'll pay that in 8-10 installments.
the thing is Amur class is a completely new generation(actually4th generation) conventional Russian submarine and is currently one of the quietest and the stealthiest ones in the world,so technically its more advanced than the Scorpene class and it also carries more fire power.
so if i were the Chief of the I.N. i would have definitely ordered 10 of these beasts to strengthen the depleting submarine fleet of the I.N. and would have waited for the completion of the Type-216 project to get my hands on that state of the art German submarine.

 

[Drsomnath999]

India to fast track multiple submarine deals

After losing INS Sindhurakshak in a fire last week which gutted the submarine killing all 18 several crew members. India is fast tracking many deals to lease , purchase or import submarines to reinforce depleting submarine fleet of Indian navy . Loss of INS Sindhurakshak was a big blow to Indian Navy , not only was it recently upgraded submarine but also one of the youngest ( 16 years) submarine in Naval arsenal .

The request for proposals (RFPs) for the $11.8-bn Project 75-I submarines of the Indian Navy is expected to be issued shortly. But Navy has made some changes and Two submarines would be acquired from a selected foreign shipyard and the remaining four would be built by the state-owned Mazagon Dock and Hindustan Shipyard. Apart from plans to allow private local shipbuilders to participate in this project.

India is also Negotiating with Russia on leasing Second Akula II class 'Nerpa' Nuclear submarine . under Project 75 India will get first Scorpene submarine which will join Indian Navy only in 2015 or later due to four years delays faced in the project . on event of loss of INS Sindhurakshak India is considering leasing two Diesel powered Kilo submarines from Russia , but according to Defence Analysts current Kilo submarines in Russian fleet are not upgraded to latest standard and it is unlikely that Russian Navy will have extra kilo submarines to spare .

According to Naval sources India may ask winner of Project 75-I for leasing of such submarines from their fleet if Russia cannot provide Kilo submarines , Foreign companies, including Rosoboron export's Amur 1650 (Russia), DCNS's Scorpene (France), HDW Type 214 (Germany) and Navantia's S-80 (Spain) were the possible candidates for the P75-I $11.8-billion project. However, officials said the Spanish company has withdrawn its technical specifications due to weight issues with their submarine.

Under Project 75-I Diesel Submarines are going to be a bigger submarine than Scorpène and will be equipped with both tube-launched missiles for land-attack capabilities as well as AIP (air-independent propulsion) for enhanced underwater capability, SLCM BrahMos will also be a standard fitment in this submarines .

India to fast track multiple submarine deals | idrw.org

 

[Neil]

Lada submarines: Made to defend and win

Yury Dolgoruky, the lead ship of Project 955's borey class is already in the Russian Navy, and the serial ships Alexander Nevsky and Vladimir Monomakh are scheduled for delivery at the end of the year. The Russian Navy, however, also needs a certain number of other ships of various classes, including non-nuclear submarines.

Within the framework of the state armament program, there are plans to build twenty diesel-electric submarines by the year 2020. Six of them will are Varshavyanka Projects 636.3 vessels and the remaining 14 are the modified Lada Project 677 ships.

The fourth generation submarine Lada, developed by the Rubin Design Bureau is the embodiment of the vast experience gained from the development and improvement of the second and third generation submarines, which have become best-sellers in the global naval armament market.

The design and capabilities of the non-nuclear ships allow them to be used both in coastal and offshore waters, including the Baltic and the Black Sea. The Lada submarines are not only able to defend the naval base and the coast, but also to explore and destroy the enemy's submarines and surface ships.

Foreign countries are showing an increased level of attention to the Rubin-designed boats. There was great interest in the LIMA 2013 exhibition in Malaysia, which traditionally brings together representatives of many countries in the Asia-Pacific region. The region is expected to account for more than half the sales of non-nuclear submarines in 2030. This is largely due to the fact that the Lada and its export modifications Amur have a significant advantage over their European competitors – they are able to deliver volley missile strikes. A fully automatic rocket has been applied on the Lada – a torpedo complex with an unprecedented striking power for a ship with such displacement.

Lada vessels are single-hulled, with minimal displacement allowing for reduced noise signature and improved propulsion quality. The class marks the first usage of the Russian navy of a mono-hull design since the 1940s.

According to chief designer Igor Molchanov, the Lada's design greatly reduces its displacement, requires less metal, which entails a lower production cost, and also improves the acoustic performance and makes the submarine less noticeable.



Molchanov says the fourth generation submarine has a number of fundamental differences from vessels of the third generation. First of all, the new submarine has a more powerful missile-torpedo armament. While cruise missiles can only be used from two torpedo tubes on the Varshavyanka, on the larger export-version of the Lada, the Amur-1650, cruise missiles can be used from all from all six tubes. In addition, the Amur-1650 features a low intrinsic noise level. Finally, compared to the Varshavyanka, the Amur-1650 has a greater cruising range in the underwater economic mode. The vessel has a general service life of at least 25 years.

The Lada also has the Lira, a modern sonar complex with antenna systems, which in their surface area equate to those used on nuclear submarines. The ship's vital functions provide a comprehensive automated system for controlling the Lithium combat and technical equipment – it manages its energy, as well as all the functions associated with combat weapons.

The Lada class vessels also have tremendous potential for further upgradation, especially when it comes to its electronic equipment. The project has satisfied the necessary condition of providing an open architecture for upgrading electronic systems.

The Rubin Design Bureau is also willing to modify its new vessel's basic design to suit customer-specific requirements. Potential buyers like India have taken a keen interest in submarines with air-independent propulsion. The bureau is looking to manufacture an appropriate version of the Amur-1650 that would satisfy the requirements of the Indian Navy. India is on the lookout for a submarine that would allow hydrogen to be produced directly on the boat by reforming diesel.


Project 75-I : Lada submarines: Made to defend and win | idrw.org

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

the best conventional and the quietest subs are Swedish gotland SUBs The Stirling engine of this sub is near silent and can use the surrounding sea water as a heat sink to increase efficiency

HMS Gotland managed to snap several pictures of the USS Ronald Reagan during a wargaming exercise in the Pacific Ocean, effectively "sinking" the aircraft carrier.The exercise was conducted to evaluate the effectiveness of the US Fleet against diesel-electric submarines, which some have noted as severely lacking

Kockums were awarded the contract in March 1990 to build three Gotland Class submarines, Kockums is owned by HDW of Germany.

so any chance of HDW offering improved Gotland sub instead of Type 214 ??

SSK Gotland Class (Type A19) - Naval Technology

http://www.sesusa.org/submarine.pdf

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

the best conventional and the quietest subs are Swedish gotland SUBs The Stirling engine of this sub is near silent and can use the surrounding sea water as a heat sink to increase efficiency

HMS Gotland managed to snap several pictures of the USS Ronald Reagan during a wargaming exercise in the Pacific Ocean, effectively "sinking" the aircraft carrier.The exercise was conducted to evaluate the effectiveness of the US Fleet against diesel-electric submarines, which some have noted as severely lacking

R.I.P INS Vikrant & INS Vikramaditya.