TYPE 214 SUB VS AMUR 1650 SUB A Layman's analysis

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bhramos

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Does anyone care about Russian "claims"? It is irrelevant to the actual reality as their new products come up short.
But ever, we have no choice, we would buy Russian only, because Germany's HDW is a black listed company...
 

Armand2REP

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But ever, we have no choice, we would buy Russian only, because Germany's HDW is a black listed company...
There is nothing to buy from Russia with a submarine having "the power of a WWII" model. If HDW is blacklisted, DCN is the only game in town.
 

Drsomnath999

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Does anyone care about Russian "claims"? It is irrelevant to the actual reality as their new products come up short.
why ??? should we only care about french claims ??? :taunt: common man give me a break we are already operating Kilo sub & chinese & iranians are also operating it .
well has it come short of it's stated capability .??????? NO
 

Drsomnath999

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But ever, we have no choice, we would buy Russian only, because Germany's HDW is a black listed company...
well HDW has been a contender of project 75 I & has it been removed from contention ???? i dont know
 

Armand2REP

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You already operate Kilo so why did you buy Scorpene? India buys many things that traditionally Russia had monopolies. India would be completely happy buying Russian kit if it met modern standards... it doesn't. Chinese and Iranians can only buy Russian subs so that is a pretty lame example. Kilo was a product of the Soviet, a time when they could meet goals. It is a different age in Russia with white haired men tooling with old ideas. Kilo is obsolete and the Lada systems were rated as worse, rejected by RuNav. Why should we care about French claims... because they do what they say. Proven track record of success goes a long way in this world.
 

indian_sukhoi

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The Indian Navy plans to Build 12 scorpene class submarines, included the 6 more optioned. There is no way IN giving the P-75I tender to DCN.

Amur class are the perfect replacement for our Kilos. What Navy is looking for is a modified MKI version type Amur class fitting brahmos in it.


The Biggest setback of U-212 is it cannot be fitted with brahmos or any missile to offer of its own. IN is married to brahmos, They cannot digest of sacrificing it!!

U-212s are silent but too slow, It cannot catch up against a Fast Ships/Frigates. If your looking for shore based defence than U-212 would be most preferable. PN are planning to acquire few of them!!

Whereas, Amurs(Lada class) could be used for wider sea-denial capability and its high speed of 30knots can hunt any surface ships in deep Indian Ocean region.



Besides, Amur class would be cheap and IN could go acquiring more numbers.

Russians are planning to sign atleast 20 of these Subs. Winning the P75I is important for them, The whole future of Russia's SSK production depends on it. They will definetly gonna come up with a cheap price.
 

ace009

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I think Armand, you are too French to appreciate any other country or their technology.
Wow - you even think that the F-22 is not as good ...

India bought the Scorpenes for strategic AND economic reasons back in 1997. Back then, the Russians did not really have a competing submarine and HDW was banned due to graft accusations. However, since then the Scorpene deal has gone through it's own version of bribery scandal and if HDW is under investigation, so is Thales for the Scorpene deal.

Now the scenario has changed considerably in the last 15 years. The Russians are back in the game - because their economy is doing better thanks to oil and gas prices. The Germans are as always a class apart and their economy is doing better compared to ANY other European country. So they have better R&D too.

The Indians should not trust France any more than they trust the Russians or the Germans. After looking at different technologies and options, the HDW IMHO is the best bet, but then we will see how things go at GoI.
 

bhramos

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There is nothing to buy from Russia with a submarine having "the power of a WWII" model. If HDW is blacklisted, DCN is the only game in town.
so we brought Scorpene subs, and you are already behind schedule....!!!!!
domain-b.com : First Scorpene submarine delivery three years behind schedule: Antony
and already caught in scams in both India and Pak...
Scorpene submarine scam (2005) - Top Ten Scams in India
The French Connection - Zardari, Sarkozy Bribery Scandal « Discuss

where were your high tall claims about french !!!!
 

Armand2REP

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Ain't our fault MDL is having difficulty absorbing technology, nor is it our fault IN didn't sign the equipment contract before inflation. Throwing rocks at a glass house ends up with you getting cut.
 

Armand2REP

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I think Armand, you are too French to appreciate any other country or their technology.
Wow - you even think that the F-22 is not as good ...
pfft, you won't find me saying that.

India bought the Scorpenes for strategic AND economic reasons back in 1997. Back then, the Russians did not really have a competing submarine and HDW was banned due to graft accusations. However, since then the Scorpene deal has gone through it's own version of bribery scandal and if HDW is under investigation, so is Thales for the Scorpene deal.
HDW is the only company that can compete with Scorpene and since it was blacklisted, Scorpene won. Russia didn't have a modern product to offer but more obsolete Kilos.

Now the scenario has changed considerably in the last 15 years. The Russians are back in the game - because their economy is doing better thanks to oil and gas prices. The Germans are as always a class apart and their economy is doing better compared to ANY other European country. So they have better R&D too.
The Russians are more obsolete now than they were then. The MIC is crumbling and little money is being spent to recapitalize it. R&D funding is at a lower percentage than it was immediately after the default. Average age of engineers has gone from 45 to 62. The Lada is a perfect example of their failure.

The Indians should not trust France any more than they trust the Russians or the Germans. After looking at different technologies and options, the HDW IMHO is the best bet, but then we will see how things go at GoI.
It isn't a matter of political trust, it is trust in the ability to deliver performance with modern technologies. It is already decided to get the +3 option on Scorpene. France is entrenched in the IN Silent Service and signals P75I win just as Mirage upgrades and MICA missiles signaled Rafale win.
 

Drsomnath999

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You already operate Kilo so why did you buy Scorpene?
well india bought it much earlier & it was one of the most quitest submarine of the world during it's time ,But scorpene is a recent Submarine with AIP technology so u cannot compare it with kilo exactly like u cannot compare mirage with rafale .We also operate mirage so why did we buy rafale ????
ANS: as it is a new gen of fighter exactly scorpene is a new gen sub compare to kilo

India buys many things that traditionally Russia had monopolies. India would be completely happy buying Russian kit if it met modern standards... it doesn't.
well not all but some are there which doent met all standards .

Chinese and Iranians can only buy Russian subs so that is a pretty lame example.
why lame example man??? KilO sub was a succesful export submarine it also had many customers

Kilo was a product of the Soviet, a time when they could meet goals. It is a different age in Russia with white haired men tooling with old ideas. Kilo is obsolete and the Lada systems were rated as worse, rejected by RuNav.
but still russia is world 's 2nd largest exporter of weapons in the world .
Russia ranked 2nd biggest global arms exporter – arms think tank | Defense | RIA Novosti
Just rejection of LADA systems shouldnt be taken as a demerit of that sub , may be other economical reason should also be there for it's rejection apart from technical reasons

Why should we care about French claims... because they do what they say. Proven track record of success goes a long way in this world.
well i am sorry it's not always true everytime .as malaysian navy reported to have problems with scopene


Malaysian Scorpene submarine develops snags
 

shuvo@y2k10

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i think this clarifies why we say that scorpene aquisition is a major disaster.
 

Armand2REP

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well india bought it much earlier & it was one of the most quitest submarine of the world during it's time ,But scorpene is a recent Submarine with AIP technology so u cannot compare it with kilo exactly like u cannot compare mirage with rafale .We also operate mirage so why did we buy rafale ????
ANS: as it is a new gen of fighter exactly scorpene is a new gen sub compare to kilo
I can compare it to Kilo as that is the same submarine Russia offers to this day. The only difference is a refit Mod that doesn't even bring it digital. The last two Lada are going to have the same propulsion and sonar as the Kilo Mod, if they can't work all the bugs out of the digital system they will still be analogue.

well not all but some are there which doent met all standards .
Every type India has bought from the US and France is a result of Russia's failure to offer a modern product.

why lame example man??? KilO sub was a succesful export submarine it also had many customers
Lame when the examples CAN'T buy anything else.

but still russia is world 's 2nd largest exporter of weapons in the world .
But Russia is buying licensed production which they add to that number. If it is assembled in Russia, they count its full value as an export. All the Catherine FC, Damocles, Turbomeca engines and SIGMA INS they sell they put on that tab. Knock off close to a billion right there. Their exports are high but their imports are increasing lowering their surplus. This year they will be ordering $1.7 billion worth of Mistrals, $50m Thales comms gear, $211 million light French helos, $80m Turbomeca engines, $40m Sagem INS, $20m Domacles targeting pods.. then they are ordering a thousand IVECO, thousands of sniper rifles and likely Israeli UAVs. This is several billion dollars of what Russia can't make modern, and their land armaments have fallen off a cliff. The complaint ratio of defective equipment is up 20% to 3000 over last year. Fulfillment of 2011 orders failed by 30%, worse than last year. We are seeing mass suspension and delays of programmes because the MIC is unable to deliver modern products.

Just rejection of LADA systems shouldnt be taken as a demerit of that sub , may be other economical reason should also be there for it's rejection apart from technical reasons
It wasn't rejected for economical reason, they were TECHNICAL reasons.

well i am sorry it's not always true everytime .as malaysian navy reported to have problems with scopene
Sure, French problems = 6 months delay while Russian problems = 6 years delay. :laugh:
 

Drsomnath999

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I can compare it to Kilo as that is the same submarine Russia offers to this day. The only difference is a refit Mod that doesn't even bring it digital. The last two Lada are going to have the same propulsion and sonar as the Kilo Mod, if they can't work all the bugs out of the digital system they will still be analogue.
no u cant compare it with KILO as scorpene is a new gen of submarine & russia is not offering kilo but amur sub ,which is a new gen of sub .
Well amur has AIP propulsion while it is not present in KILO .& AMUR has a new generation of sonar called LIRA sonar while KILO doesnt has that quality of sonar .




Every type India has bought from the US and France is a result of Russia's failure to offer a modern product.
no failure is not the reason, but india want to diversify it's sources to avoid monoppoly & not to put all eggs in one basket .Russia has provided such technology which no country can dare to give us , like leasing of NUKE subs , supersonic cruise missile technology ,many more BLAH ,....BLAH


Lame when the examples CAN'T buy anything else.
well there many more countries apart from china & iran like
Polish Navy
Romanian Naval Forces
Algerian National Navy
Vietnamese People's Navy
KILO sub was a succesful submarine of it's time
well the chinese incoporated or copied many technology on kilo sub to their indigenious SSk subs

Now u tell me why did pakistan bought german DM2 torpedoes when they could have bought french torpedoes for their AGOSTA 90B sub ??? becoz they want better quality products





But Russia is buying licensed production which they add to that number. If it is assembled in Russia, they count its full value as an export. All the Catherine FC, Damocles, Turbomeca engines and SIGMA INS they sell they put on that tab. Knock off close to a billion right there. Their exports are high but their imports are increasing lowering their surplus. This year they will be ordering $1.7 billion worth of Mistrals, $50m Thales comms gear, $211 million light French helos, $80m Turbomeca engines, $40m Sagem INS, $20m Domacles targeting pods.. then they are ordering a thousand IVECO, thousands of sniper rifles and likely Israeli UAVs. This is several billion dollars of what Russia can't make modern, and their land armaments have fallen off a cliff. The complaint ratio of defective equipment is up 20% to 3000 over last year. Fulfillment of 2011 orders failed by 30%, worse than last year. We are seeing mass suspension and delays of programmes because the MIC is unable to deliver modern products.
yes no doubt russia is buying weapons also from french & israelis but recenty isreal scrapped that UAV deal in response to russian sell of supersonic cruise missile to SYRIA .But still russia is the key player in weapons market no matter even if they buy weapons , they still offer comparitively modern weapons at a cheaper price than it's western counterparts


It wasn't rejected for economical reason, they were TECHNICAL reasons.
yes no doubt about it , but u cant rule out economic reasons as they didnt even have money to fund AKULA II nuke sub & wanted india to fund it & we did .Also they are more interested & want to utilize their fund in building new gen NUCLEAR sub compare to SSKs sub



Sure, French problems = 6 months delay while Russian problems = 6 years delay. :laugh:
well the big problem is not about delay but technical problems that is marring both Scopene subs & also AMUR subs .well BTW about delay u should look the link posted by brahmos about scorpene delay :taunt: How can u say it 6 months :lol:
 
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Godless-Kafir

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Great detail as usual Dr.S. I am wonder why they never make you a star, because you use similes? :confused:
 

latsar

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I think India should choose the same platform that the Israelis have chosen .Since India's and Israel 's defense collaboration have progressed very well in recent years ,it only makes much sense if they start using same platforms attest in some areas .Furthermore I would choose German and Israelis technologies collaborated together on a product over others anytime.
 
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noob101

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on pure technical tearms it seems the HDW 216 is the way to go but politically it is probably blacklisted as they sold some boats to the PN, I dont disagree with that either... I think its time we flex our muscles in that sense.... Although I am not in favor of the whole P75I project as it just seems to me that we are building nuclear boats faster than conventional ones.... This is what I think should be done:

1) Crank up L&T and HSL and aim for an predominant nulcear submarine force having 2:1 ratio
2) in the mean time increase the Scorpene order by 3-4 with the AIP system that the DRDO should get or get the MESMA from France and while getting all the boats upgrades to AIP before midlife refits

If we think of the Scorpene order its really not that bad in tearms of delivery of the last boat it is delayed by only 6 months that the originally projected time frame.... its the delivery of the first boat that has everyone pissed off, MDL actually tooled up well and seems to have its shit together now... multiple tools shops are operating and 3 boats are under simultaneous construction it would just be eaiser to add another batch of 3 and keep the prodcution going rather than retooling for another design... plus probably will save some money that can be spent on expanding L&T and HSL to make them crank out boomers or nuclear attack subs at the rate of 1 every 1-2 years.....

Another arugment for more nuclear submarines is : we are going to need at least 6-7 nuclear attack submarines if there is going to be one on permanent with duty with CBG... my hope is when we have 3 operating 3 CBGs one will be on deployment in the pacific/ south China sea area maybe not on a permanent basis but few deployments just to get the PLAN irritated and Unkil to take notice.... nuclear boats are needed for deployments at that range
 

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