TYPE 214 SUB VS AMUR 1650 SUB A Layman's analysis

[W.G.Ewald]

Amazing thread. Good job!

Need more votes in the poll!

 

[sayareakd]

well maybe we are getting french AIP technology as a part of the scorpene deal but i am not sure whether that is indigenius

DRDO has made one and IN is interested in it so land base version is made now. It was mentioned in news letter.

 

[methos]

I think it is a nice done comparision, but there are two points that I think might be false.

The Type 214 is made of HY steel, but that doesn't mean that there is no coating. Coating is applied on the steel, not inside the steel. The first coatings on submarines were used during the Second World War and AFAIK all countries building submarines (maybe with the exclusion of North Korea's mini-subs) use coatings for reducing noise and/or signature. The question would rather be: which coating is better...

Secondly: The armament carried in the basic configuration (as described above) does not reflect the weapons which can and will be intergrated. The Type 214 is a "monkey model" export-version of the Type 212. Israel is using larger torpedo tubes (65 cm diameter) on their new Dolphin version, which incorporates Type 212/214 technology (while being nearly the same size). The Dolphin can therefore launch cruise missiles of similar size than BrahMos (60 cm body diameter)

 

[Armand2REP]

Russia is not even inducting Lada so Amur is a no go. The tender is between 214 and Marlin and DCN will win because India can't afford to retool for new construction and many nations are unhappy with the HDW design has several faults.

 

[methos]

Russia is not even inducting Lada so Amur is a no go. The tender is between 214 and Marlin and DCN will win because India can't afford to retool for new construction and many nations are unhappy with the HDW design has several faults.

Could you please ellaborate where HDW submarines have "serveral faults" and which countires are unhappy with it's designs? HDW has designed submarines which have been accepted into service by more than 17 countries, which is actually more than DCN. The Type 214 has just got new orders in 2008 and 2009.
But DCN may have an advantage as it has already sold submarines (Scorpéne) to India [although there is the typical corruption stuff], while HDW has only produced some older Type 209-based ones.

Have you any information about the Marlin class? AFAIK it hasn't received any order and is no longer being marketed?

 

[pack leader]

the germen subs are the best in the world
elbit and Rafael helped the Germans to improve the already impressive sensor and fcs suite
the germen sub is mass produced by many country's
spares are made by Korea , Sweden , Italy bedsides the original manufacturer (Germany)
ah and the stealth semi self aiming 100 km torpedo is a beast

 

[Galaxy]

Excellent analysis by none other than Dr. Somnath, lord of 32 teeth's

I prefer German Type 216.

 

[Drsomnath999]

I think it is a nice done comparision,

thanks mate

but there are two points that I think might be false.

The Type 214 is made of HY steel, but that doesn't mean that there is no coating. Coating is applied on the steel, not inside the steel. The first coatings on submarines were used during the Second World War and AFAIK all countries building submarines (maybe with the exclusion of North Korea's mini-subs) use coatings for reducing noise and/or signature. The question would rather be: which coating is better..

right .i hadnt mentioned the coating on Type 214 sub.yes it must be having coating but Russian molniya coating is more advanced coating than type 214 sub

Secondly: The armament carried in the basic configuration (as described above) does not reflect the weapons which can and will be intergrated. The Type 214 is a "monkey model" export-version of the Type 212. Israel is using larger torpedo tubes (65 cm diameter) on their new Dolphin version, which incorporates Type 212/214 technology (while being nearly the same size). The Dolphin can therefore launch cruise missiles of similar size than BrahMos (60 cm body diameter)

well i am stating what is given according to the websites well personally i had nt measured it
well one more thing dolphin is a derivative of type 209 sub i think ,well correct me if i am wrong

 

[Drsomnath999]

Russia is not even inducting Lada so Amur is a no go.

well amur is an export model of project 677 while lada is their domestic version. Welll AMUR has many new innovative features compare to LADA subs but still it is an important contender

The tender is between 214 and Marlin and DCN will win because India can't afford to retool for new construction and many nations are unhappy with the HDW design has several faults.

well plz revive urselves from rafale mmrca win's hangover as india would nt put all his eggs in one basket , i mean they wont give another 9-10 billion dollar deal into french's kitty ,instead they would go for other vendors.
& which hdw sub r u mentioning TYPE 214 sub ,well it had problems in helllenic navy & similiar problem with korean navy ,but majority of these problems
has been solved & type 216 is going to be all together a new sub with new AIP & with VLS capabilty.
& well marlin class is also in development i think ,correct me on that if i am wrong

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Excellent analysis by none other than Dr. Somnath, lord of 32 teeth's

I prefer German Type 216.

If I am not mistaken, the Type 216 is a later generation of the Typ XXIII.

U-Boot-Klasse XXIII – Wikipedia

Uboot Hecht (S 171, ex U 2367)

 

[methos]

right .i hadnt mentioned the coating on Type 214 sub.yes it must be having coating but Russian molniya coating is more advanced coating than type 214 sub

I don't know. The Type 214 does have some kind of specialized coating on the non-magnetic steel fullfillig two functions (anti-corrosion and signature-reducing). The Russian Lada (and therefore the Amur) are know for having a good coating, it [the coating] has a name and is mentioned and dozens of websites. But this does not mean that it is better. It might be better than the one of the Type 214, but it also might be worse. We can't say, as there is (nearly) no information available on the internet or other public available sources. It is about the same as with tank armour. Regarding tanks there is British "Chobham" armour and Indian "Kanchan" - they got names and there exist pretty rough descriptions about it's capabilities and structure. But does that mean that Chobham/Kanchan is better than composite armour which doesn't have a special name and is not roughly described in the web (like French, Israeli, German or Italian armour)? No - we don't have access to the neccessary information -> we can't base our "defence analysis" on it.

well i am stating what is given according to the websites well personally i had nt measured it
well one more thing dolphin is a derivative of type 209 sub i think ,well correct me if i am wrong

Yes it is. But the Israeli's recently "bought" [which means that the Germans pay more than 50%] two new Type 209 which include technology from Type 212/214. As Type 214 and Type 209 are regarding size very similar (Type 214 is a little bit larger) it seems to be likely that the larger torpedo tubes can be fitted without any troubles into the Type 214, if a country wanted to buy Type 214 with cruise missile capability.

 

[Armand2REP]

Could you please ellaborate where HDW submarines have "serveral faults" and which countires are unhappy with it's designs? HDW has designed submarines which have been accepted into service by more than 17 countries, which is actually more than DCN. The Type 214 has just got new orders in 2008 and 2009.
But DCN may have an advantage as it has already sold submarines (Scorpéne) to India [although there is the typical corruption stuff], while HDW has only produced some older Type 209-based ones.

Have you any information about the Marlin class? AFAIK it hasn't received any order and is no longer being marketed?

Lets see... South Korea and Greece were both pissed at the poor design of the U214. Both suffered from oscillating propellers, surface instability, periscope vibrations and sea water leaking into the hydraulics. HDW says most of that is resolved, but the noise level does not meet requirements. Both countries have fined HDW for technical problems.

Marlin is an SSK version of the Barracuda with MESMA instead of nuke reactor. It can incorporate domestic nuclear plant if the buyer has one. France is prohibited from exporting submarine reactors.

 

[Armand2REP]

well amur is an export model of project 677 while lada is their domestic version. Welll AMUR has many new innovative features compare to LADA subs but still it is an important contender

The Amur is the same submarine as the Lada, just an export version. The same problems apply. The engines don't even generate half power, sonar is obsolete as well as control system malfunctions and software crashes.

well plz revive urselves from rafale mmrca win's hangover as india would nt put all his eggs in one basket , i mean they wont give another 9-10 billion dollar deal into french's kitty ,instead they would go for other vendors.

MMRCA is easily worth $20billion and we already won another $10 billion. I do believe that makes France India's largest supplier if PAK FA falls off. Winning P75I will easily push us over the top.

& which hdw sub r u mentioning TYPE 214 sub ,well it had problems in helllenic navy & similiar problem with korean navy ,but majority of these problems
has been solved & type 216 is going to be all together a new sub with new AIP & with VLS capabilty.
& well marlin class is also in development i think ,correct me on that if i am wrong

The 214 is still noisy as hell and HDW is being sued for it. India don't want no loud submarines.

 

[methos]

Regarding coating (if anyone is interested): The coating of the Type 214 is applied by a company called ISIS Finishing, which also applied coatings to the French Forbin (Horizon class), German frigates and submarines and the South African Valour class frigattes. The type and characteristics of the coating(s) applied still remain unkown, even after some research.

Armand2REP,
You seem to have a very low opinion on anything not made in France (at least when products from other European countries are competing against French-made ones). I did some research and there have been troubles with the Greek Type 214. These problems were mainly associated with the fuel cells and the propulsion, as the vehicles were not planned as "tropicalised" from the beginning. These problems were fixed after 1-2 years (which is nothing special), the submarines did get German qualification according to NATO standards and were accepted by Greece. Another proof of the problems being fixed are the 2008/9 orders by Greece and SK.
I never found any claims about the noise level or that Greece or SK fined/sued HDW. They just didn't accept the submarines until the problems were solved. Troubles with freshly fielded equipment are not uncommon, it is more or less common.
If the use of a different generator would have troubled the Marlin is unkown.

 

[Drsomnath999]

I don't know. The Type 214 does have some kind of specialized coating on the non-magnetic steel fullfillig two functions (anti-corrosion and signature-reducing). The Russian Lada (and therefore the Amur) are know for having a good coating, it [the coating] has a name and is mentioned and dozens of websites. But this does not mean that it is better. It might be better than the one of the Type 214, but it also might be worse. We can't say, as there is (nearly) no information available on the internet or other public available sources. It is about the same as with tank armour. Regarding tanks there is British "Chobham" armour and Indian "Kanchan" - they got names and there exist pretty rough descriptions about it's capabilities and structure. But does that mean that Chobham/Kanchan is better than composite armour which doesn't have a special name and is not roughly described in the web (like French, Israeli, German or Italian armour)? No - we don't have access to the neccessary information -> we can't base our "defence analysis" on it..

well i agree the germans dont have a special name for their coating but i gave some considerations to AMUR not only on grounds of stealth coating but also on grounds of having stealthy anechotic tiles which they have
Yes the compostion of stealth coating is classified & also it is difficult to predict which one is better on appearance only so i may be right or i may be wrong but let us give something to Russian subs on stealth ground (LOL)

 

[Drsomnath999]

The Amur is the same submarine as the Lada, just an export version. The same problems apply. The engines don't even generate half power, sonar is obsolete as well as control system malfunctions and software crashes.

well there hasnt been any production model of AMUR only 1 project 677 lada sub was produced for russian navy & later it was scrapped .
many new features are going to be installed in AMUR 1650 subs & LIRA sonar is advanced new gen sonar & also Kristall 27E aip is clamed to be more
safer than GErman AIP as claimed by russians

MMRCA is easily worth $20billion and we already won another $10 billion. I do believe that makes France India's largest supplier if PAK FA falls off. Winning P75I will easily push us over the top.

well too optimistic of u then

The 214 is still noisy as hell and HDW is being sued for it. India don't want no loud submarines.

well i agree type 214 sub had lot of problems but majority of them had been resolved & thats why germany had started development or initiated the program of TYPE 216 sub i agree it is still in paper works but they could build it with in a yr or 2 & present it to indian navy
Well all subs apart from type 214 doesnt have production model like amur , marlin class ,type 216 ,

 

[Armand2REP]

Russian AIP has never been off the bench either.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Russian AIP has never been off the bench either.

well Krystall 27 E aip is claimed to be more safer than german AIP ,and also they may be developing 3rd gen AIP systems like GERMANY"S type 216 sub

 

[Neil]

New Submarines Improve Performance

New Submarines Improve Performance | AVIATION WEEK

 

[Armand2REP]

well Krystall 27 E aip is claimed to be more safer than german AIP ,and also they may be developing 3rd gen AIP systems like GERMANY"S type 216 sub

Does anyone care about Russian "claims"? It is irrelevant to the actual reality as their new products come up short.