Top guns and flop guns: Indian Air Force 'beats RAF 12-0 in training exercise'

Compersion

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The 'exercise' you are referring to was SAS(R) selection from over a year ago. This is an Indian and UK Ex in Leics and Norfolk


Agreed


Not sure what you are trying to say there. No lives lost in UK/Induan Ex


Thought China and Pakistan were your enemies?


I agree and long may it remain so
http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/21-indian-soldiers-injured-in-road-accident-in-uk_1615605.html

Apologies about facts the lives lost. That is not true. Many indians were injured and a few had life threatening injury. What I am saying is what's the shame about 12-0 and so what uk lost in a training excerise they learn and we learn . we have had a armed forces training where our soldiers got hurt together ... We learn and they learn ... Do we start making comments about one another that one is worse and does not know what they are doing ?? (Please refer to the army excerise and the news reports - trust me where I say India need not feel shame at all if it is 12-0 and uk needs to realise we are good partners).

Yep prc and Pakistan are enemy and they don't have su30mki. That means if we have typhoon ... They won't be able to 12-0
 

Scalieback

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I have stayed in Manchester UK for sometime... I know what triggers such anti Brits comments or feelings... may be a point of argument in some other thread...
You can but it won't involve me. I did all of that three years ago and it's frankly dull and repetitive
Thank You !!
I have no problem with giving credit where it's due

As above, I'm not a fan boy of anything, I just want the truth
 

Scalieback

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http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/21-indian-soldiers-injured-in-road-accident-in-uk_1615605.html

Apologies about facts the lives lost. That is not true. Many indians were injured and a few had life threatening injury.
Fair one, not seen that. Presumably two TCV's (troop carrying vehs aka trucks) involved. Hope the injured are okay

What I am saying is what's the shame about 12-0 and so what uk lost in a training excerise they learn and we learn . we have had a armed forces training where our soldiers got hurt together ... We learn and they learn ... Do we start making comments about one another that one is worse and does not know what they are doing ?? (Please refer to the army excerise and the news reports - trust me where I say India need not feel shame at all if it is 12-0 and uk needs to realise we are good partners).
There's a lot to be learnt from such exercises, agreed. The point being 12-0. Really? Not one lucky shot? Not one 'chance in a million.

The journalist goes on about free fall. It wasn't free fall, it was LLP ie static line. 'Nuff said

Yep prc and Pakistan are enemy and they don't have su30mki. That means if we have typhoon ... They won't be able to 12-0
iIRC China copies Russian and some western kit. Pakistan buys from China. Russia will soon be owned by China the way Vlad is selling off his products.

Su30 is good. IAF pilots are good. But 12-0?
 

Scalieback

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Hmmm if a claim that the other side was trounced is evidence of the presence of Fanboys then the former RAF Air Marshal Dalton who said of the IAF after the previous series of exercises "Well, the lost" was also a fanboy. A fanboy RAF chief - fancy that.
Probably. Your point being?

More power to fanboys. It always feels good to say that the other side was trounced. Part of the fun is getting others irritated and defensive and coming up with idiotic excuses - which incidentally the IAF did not do last time. But this time when the EF was ass whupped 12-0 I am seeing one heck of a lot of whimpering and complaining.

Cheers to that. I want some more.
I think you'll be better here: http://www.mumsnet.com

More your level of conversation
 

wegweg

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A level headed assessment. If VT can be/has to be used the pilot is in serious trouble.

(edit) Mods, maybe you should include the post I was replying to?
 
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manutdfan

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The most rational, fair and unbiased analysis yet.:hail:
Apparently 12-0 score lines are possible and that's the cold hard truth. However, I stand by the fact that the Eurofighter is a deadly close-in turnfighter and in real world combat scenarios it'll match the Sukhoi toe-to-toe.

Apparently a lot of credit for the Sukhois' superb performance has been attributed to TVC. It's appalling when so many people jump on the TVC bandwagon without any introspection.
TVC helps in two ways-
1) drastically improves instantaneous turn rates (thereby enabling you to point your nose instantaneously towards your target. This is the default position to launch A2A missiles)
2) increase in post-stall maneuverability

But it's got its drawbacks too-
1) you bleed energy fast post-TVC maneuver and that my friends is when you are at your most vulnerable. An alert and well trained opponent would always be waiting for this precise moment to drill your brains out of the sky.
2) TVC works best in low subsonic and above supersonic environments. When supersonic it's tough to achieve high alpha performance without loosing energy rapidly. In such cases TVC + canards help overcome these difficulties. The problem is the window for creating such optimal opportunities is small in a dogfight.

In the captioned blog the author summarizes- ' Su-30MKI excels in WVR low energy combat, Typhoon in standoff & WVR high energy combat '. Cent percent true and I fear this is where I disagree with the author over some parts of the hypothetical battlefield scenarios.

The Indradhanush exercises' 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2 scenarios were pure gun-kill simulations and hence were consequently low energy WVR turnfights i.e. in the low subsonic range.

Modern air combat is a slightly different scenario.
1) Initially both parties flying in at supersonic speeds at high altitudes would engage in BVR combat. TVC might help as after firing a missile the jet could quickly turn towards its next target. Still BVR is sooo overrated. Why does everybody love BVR much? Awww...scared of getting cut in a knife-fight....you sissy little girl.
2) after both the parties have expended their BVR missiles the surviving fighters; which would still be a considerable number of aircrafts; would meet in the merge. This inevitably would turn into a messy dogfight at high and medium altitudes in the medium subsonic to high transonic range i.e. WVR high energy combat. TVC is practically useless in this particular flight envelope due to rapid energy loss. The primary weapon would be the heat-seeking high off-boresight missiles coupled to IRST and HMS. Only those jets which are inherent turn-fighters (highly agile and maneuverable) would come out tops in this scenario, most probably the EuroFighter Typhoon due to it's superior:
- Thrust/ Weight ratio
- max sustained turn rate
- instantaneous turn rates (without TVC)
- visual stealth due to much smaller size
- lower drag due to smaller airframe
- lower wing loading which increases maneuverability
(note- it's high alpha performance is much inferior to the Sukhois)
Majority of the 21st century close-in air combat would take place in this scenario.
3) The last stage would be the mopping up stage and this is where the Sukhois are deadly if the Eurofighters are not able to finish them off in the previous two stages. Now both fighters have run out of missiles, it is guns only and the Eurofighter is low on fuel. Most A2A kills have taken place when the opponent is about to run out of fuel. The Sukhoi-30 with endurance on it's side would relish such a scenario. No matter what the Eurofighter chooses to do- flight or fight it's doomed. If it chooses to stay and engage the remaining Sukhois on bingo fuel it would devolve into a slower, low energy turn-fight. This would be a text-book repeat of the 2015 Indradhanush scenario. TVC will be the game changer.

I would like to stress that these are two very different fighters in two different weight classes built for two very different purposes. The Eurofighter is a medium-weight short/medium range point/ area defense fighter built primarily for intercepting Russian fighters and bombers intruding from over the North Sea. Whereas the Su-30MKI is the IAF's primary heavy-class long-range air superiority fighter tasked with carrying the fight deep into enemy airspace and establishing air dominance before our ground troops roll in.

In today's world where anything could be bought by anybody with loads of cash off the shelf, the advantages provided by superior technology itself would be marginal but definitely not overwhelming. The defining factors would always be- personnel skills/ training, superior tactics and a healthy dose of 'who dares wins'.
 
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Srinivas_K

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Excellent Post Mate !!


.........................................................

The most rational, fair and unbiased analysis yet.:hail:
Apparently 12-0 score lines are possible and that's the cold hard truth. However, I stand by the fact that the Eurofighter is a deadly close-in turnfighter and in real world combat scenarios it'll match the Sukhoi toe-to-toe.

Apparently a lot of credit for the Sukhois' superb performance has been attributed to TVC. It's appalling when so many people jump on the TVC bandwagon without any introspection.
TVC helps in two ways-
1) drastically improves instantaneous turn rates (thereby enabling you to point your nose instantaneously towards your target. This is the default position to launch A2A missiles)
2) increase in post-stall maneuverability

But it's got its drawbacks too-
1) you bleed energy fast post-TVC maneuver and that my friends is when you are at your most vulnerable. An alert and well trained opponent would always be waiting for this precise moment to drill your brains out of the sky.
2) TVC works best in low subsonic and above supersonic environments. When supersonic it's tough to achieve high alpha performance without loosing energy rapidly. In such cases TVC + canards help overcome these difficulties. The problem is the window for creating such optimal opportunities is small in a dogfight.

In the captioned blog the author summarizes- ' Su-30MKI excels in WVR low energy combat, Typhoon in standoff & WVR high energy combat '. Cent percent true and I fear this is where I disagree with the author over some parts of the hypothetical battlefield scenarios.

The Indradhanush exercises' 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2 scenarios were pure gun-kill simulations and hence were consequently low energy WVR turnfights i.e. in the low subsonic range.

Modern air combat is a slightly different scenario.
1) Initially both parties flying in at supersonic speeds at high altitudes would engage in BVR combat. TVC might help as after firing a missile the jet could quickly turn towards its next target. Still BVR is sooo overrated. Why does everybody love BVR much? Awww...scared of getting cut in a knife-fight....you sissy little girl.
2) after both the parties have expended their BVR missiles the surviving fighters; which would still be a considerable number of aircrafts; would meet in the merge. This inevitably would turn into a messy dogfight at high and medium altitudes in the medium subsonic to high transonic range i.e. WVR high energy combat. TVC is practically useless in this particular flight envelope due to rapid energy loss. The primary weapon would be the heat-seeking high off-boresight missiles coupled to IRST and HMS. Only those jets which are inherent turn-fighters (highly agile and maneuverable) would come out tops in this scenario, most probably the EuroFighter Typhoon due to it's superior:
- Thrust/ Weight ratio
- max sustained turn rate
- instantaneous turn rates (without TVC)
- visual stealth due to much smaller size
- lower drag due to smaller airframe
- lower wing loading which increases maneuverability
(note- it's high alpha performance is much inferior to the Sukhois)
Majority of the 21st century close-in air combat would take place in this scenario.
3) The last stage would be the mopping up stage and this is where the Sukhois are deadly if the Eurofighters are not able to finish them off in the previous two stages. Now both fighters have run out of missiles, it is guns only and the Eurofighter is low on fuel. Most A2A kills have taken place when the opponent is about to run out of fuel. The Sukhoi-30 with endurance on it's side would relish such a scenario. No matter what the Eurofighter chooses to do- flight or fight it's doomed. If it chooses to stay and engage the remaining Sukhois on bingo fuel it would devolve into a slower, low energy turn-fight. This would be a text-book repeat of the 2015 Indradhanush scenario. TVC will be the game changer.

I would like to stress that these are two very different fighters in two different weight classes built for two very different purposes. The Eurofighter is a medium-weight short/medium range point/ area defense fighter built primarily for intercepting Russian fighters and bombers intruding from over the North Sea. Whereas the Su-30MKI is the IAF's primary heavy-class long-range air superiority fighter tasked with carrying the fight deep into enemy airspace and establishing air dominance before our ground troops roll in.

In today's world where anything could be bought by anybody with loads of cash off the shelf, the advantages provided by superior technology itself would be marginal but definitely not overwhelming. The defining factors would always be- personnel skills/ training, superior tactics and a healthy dose of 'who dares wins'.
 

Scalieback

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http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=124737

Participation of IAF in Indo-UK

Bilateral Air Exercise-Indradhanush IV – July 2015
1. The fourth edition of the Indo-UK bilateral air exercise named Indradhanush was held in the UK from 21-31 July 2015. The 190-strong contingent of the IAF left India on 15 July 2015 for the overseas deployment and returned on 04 August 2015.

2. The air elements that took part in the air exercise this time were the Su-30 MKI, IL-78 tankers, C-17 and C-130J transport aircraft from the IAF and the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Voyager tanker, C-17 and C-130J from the RAF. In addition to the aircraft, the Indian Garud commandos participated alongside their British counterparts, the RAF Regiment of the Special Forces.

3. Such exercises are conducted under controlled conditions with mutually agreed weapons performance parameters, with the basic aim of learning from each other’s best practices. Additional advantages that accrue are greater understanding of each other’s general operational philosophy and exposure to a different operating environment. In combat exercises, definite objectives are laid down for each component participating. After the exercise, during debrief, a detailed analysis is carried out to assess the extent of achievement of laid down objectives. There are no classic wins and losses as no weapons are fired as per their actual capability.

4. Mutual exchange of ideas as regards operational philosophy for tactical and strategic missions has provided invaluable learning for both sides. The exercise provided opportunity for the exchange of ideas relating to concept of operations in a dynamic warfare environment. The bonhomie amongst personnel on both sides has been exceptional and in the true spirit of a bilateral exercise. The aircrew of both the Air Forces have performed exceptionally well, demonstrating their high standards of training, operational preparedness, flexibility and adaptability. The RAF had been very forthcoming in meeting all operational, maintenance and administrative requirements of the IAF contingent. Needless to say, the learning value from this interaction has been immense. The IAF looks forward to continue the engagement with RAF in the future as well.
Apart from the RAF Regt being SF, not a bad article imo
 

Scalieback

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Hmmmm....... http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...s-no-wins-and-losses/articleshow/48426394.cms
NEW DELHI: The Air Force has backed down on claims over an absolute 'win' during a recent Indo-UK exercise with an official statement arguing that there are no 'wins and losses' during such war games. A detailed statement has come from the Air Force on exercise 'Indradhanush' that was held in the UK in July, days after reports surfaced quoting IAF officials that the Indian side had a whitewash victory.
 

wegweg

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Scalieback. Winston Churchill was a hero in defending Britain against the NAZI's but his attitude towards India and the British working class was offensive. ... like your avatar.
 

Scalieback

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Scalieback. Winston Churchill was a hero in defending Britain against the NAZI's but his attitude towards India and the British working class was offensive. ... like your avatar.
Tell me something I don't know. If you want to discuss that, please do so in the relevant thread and join in on the anti Brit vitriol there. I won't be joining you. I discussed all of this three years ago and it's frankly dull, boring and repetitive. Look at 'history's worst monster' or something like that on here. The competition Churchill won.

No need to shout!
 

wegweg

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Sorry. Surface pro tablet with windows 8. Its useless. Its impossible to do some things.. like change the font size.

On topic. This whole sorry saga has detracted from the good news of Anglo Indian cooperation that needs such dissimilar training.
 

Scalieback

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On topic. This whole sorry saga has detracted from the good news of Anglo Indian cooperation that needs such dissimilar training.
Couldn't agree more, as I mentioned and @blueblood agreed, what is mentioned in the debriefing room should stay in the debriefing room. Lessons identified, lessons learned. Good look at each others kit and how it performs, how to do better next time.

BTW, as you have the Union flag up where are you?
 

ezsasa

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The way i am seeing this whole episode in a slightly differently manner:

India and UK as part of an second initiative of 2015 decide to engage in diplomatic relationship thru military joint exercises, previous one which was a army exercise resulted in severe injuries and some of indian military personnel to loose their limbs on british soil. Indian media which usually sensationalises every thing, does not cover this news beyond a day. Indian Government and army do not make a fuss about this, keeping the importance of having a good diplomatic relationship in mind.

Su30 MKI which is of russian origin is sent to UK by india for the exercise, Sukhoi and similar russian made Fighter jets the very ones which britain's Eurofighter is designed to combat with. Exercises go well, Both RAF and IAF are happy. British aero enthusiasts get to see sukhoi up close, so in general everybody is happy.

One idiot of a reporter called vishnu som belonging to a channel whose TRP ratings have been dropping for over a year, decides to report on this. This reporter has prior military experience, hence sometimes reports on defence related news. This reporter was also the most visibly upset on primetime news, when modi visited france and initial reports indicated that MMRCA is going to be cancelled. Vishnu som is also the only indian reporter to do an exclusive TV episode on rafale aircraft. Also this is the same channel which co-produced an documentary called "India's daughter", which created some amount of bad blood between britain and India.

Vishnu does a news piece on the exercise indradhanush 2015, gets to talk to a team of pilots who were part of the exercise.The reporter gets access to some inside info which IAF had not released publicly .The guy could have written the article in any other way, but chooses to write the piece highlighting the exercise as a competition rather than a military goodwill exchange. This article is picked up by british media and protrays it as Indian Airforce bragging about recently concluded exercise. British public feel insulted and starts to question whether Eurofighter is a good enough plane for RAF. "If RAF can't beat sukhoi, how is RAF planning to defend england from russian invasion" they ask. RAF feels this is a breach of trust by IAF. IAF gets a bad rep. British Govt gets concerned and complains to Indian Govt. Indian Govt ask IAF to deal with the situation. IAF confirms and issues a press release which states that Indradhanush is not a competition, rather a good will military exchange.

So for all this nonsense, is it because one reporter could not hold back words? or is it because he is trying to impress his rafale masters by ensuring that bad publicity is created for EF Typhoon in domestic audience's mind, thereby trying to eliminate it from MMRCA completely.
 
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pmaitra

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An honest advice from Russia Beyond the Headlines:


Flanker fury: How the Sukhois blanked the Typhoons 12-0 in British skies

. . .
Bottom line

Indradhanush 2015 offered RAF pilots a rare chance to go up against some of the latest Russian-designed fighter jets. The British should count their blessings that the Indians allowed them joyrides in their Sukhois.

The takeaway for the British is that their newest jet fighter – which was built to take on the Flankers – is simply no match for the Russian jet. In fact, with the induction of the more advanced Su-35 Super Flanker in the Russian Air Force – and soon the Chinese air force – the Typhoon’s window of vulnerability will only widen.

As for the IAF, it should make sure all ‘kills’ by its pilots are verified and placed in the correct context. Indian pilots are historically not known to make tall claims. In the aftermath of previous wars, the Indian defence establishment has meticulously pieced together vast quantities of data from all sides in order to verify or debunk kills. If the claims are found to be inflated then the public needs to know too.

For, there’s no surer way to lose the next war than to live in delusion about your own strength.

. . .
 

pmaitra

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Some comments from various sources (to be updated if more interesting contents discovered):

_____
James Baldwin3 days ago


Why are you attttibuting the 12-0 score line to the group captain? He has not made any such claim behind his pilot's performed well, which any leader would say in any context.

Are you capable of basic comprehension or are you sing basing this entire article on the (rather unnessercary) media storm created on the back of an Indian media article?

The IAF has kept its mouth shut in the actual results- the RAF seem unable to do so and it shows rather poorly on them that they would choose to respond to Indian media reports in such a manner- this makes me suspect there may actually be some (not entire) truth to the typhoons getting thrashed by the Indians.
_____
CharleyA3 days ago


Ask the pilots if they would rather ride the Sukhois or the Typhoon.

JK2020 CharleyA18 hours ago


Go on ask them. In India the RAF pilots were taken for a ride in the Sukhois. When they came they had grins of excitement on their faces.​

_____
VECTRA 4 days ago
Another point is it is irresponsible on part of RAF who says we fight “with one arm behind their backs”.I think they forgot that before doing any exercises there are mutual agreement on both sides that both will fight will equal caliber as agreed by the two i.e like both will use this and that and both will not use this andthat.So are RAF saying IAF fight with full force while RAF fight with half force.Then i must remind that IAF is very strict on this and they had never and will never ever agree to show all their capabilities while the opposite side don't.therefore if RAF is not showing its full strength then IAF is also no fool to show all its strength to RAF.
_____
VECTRA 4 days ago
Well i am surprised by some brits who confidently says that todays aerial warfare is no longer dog fight but BVR.Noprofessional air force would say that.Dog fight will always bethere.This false belief of solely depending on BVR will be counter productive.The fact is whether anyone like or not but F35 and Typhoon and even Rafale will be killed by Flankers and that is why most nations field them as their front line fighterswhile.You guys have no idea what flanker like Su-30MKI,SU-35,Mig-29,Mig-35 are all about.

KALHAN 4 days ago


They cannot have any idea as that is BIR for them...Beyond Imagination Range​
_____
VECTRA 4 days ago
Read the full article on NDTV it says 12-0 in WMV but in Large Force Exercises (LFE the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but still had consistently held an edge over the Typhoon may be due to TVC armed SU 30MKI.It also says in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons, the IAF jet emerged the victor 'shooting' down both 'enemy' jets.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-air-forces-top-guns-score-wins-in-the-uk-1204336
_____
TOM CURTIS 4 days ago
I am not surprised that The RAF lost the dog fight. You can have the best aircraft but if you lack skills, knowledge and experience using it, you will lose the battle. Russian Air Force's Pilots go to the university for 4-5 years, then it goes 3 years of flying experience, only then the pilots get on their hands on SU type aircraft. In India is quite similar.

SIMONNORWICH 4 days ago


That's so true. The RAF recruits its pilots by press-ganging drunks they find on the street. They give them 5 minutes training and then strap them into the planes, pressing a bottle of Scotch into 1 hand, a kebab into the other, wish them luck as they catapult them into the sky. It's a tried and trusted formula.​
_____
MAHENDRA 4 days ago
Just like Typhoons, the Sukhois were set to training mode. This means none of them were showing their best capabilities. So in real war scenario things are bound to be different than the outcome of such exercises. Yes, boasting about the outcome in such exercise appears childish, but then the RAF Air Chief Marshal did the same in 2011.
_____
reddog694uk.1 day ago


I did say a long time ago that the Sukhoi is the best bargain on the market, we got landed with with the biggest maintainance bills we have ever had just to keep our junk in the air just so our Government can keep in with the Bush's by buying American goods. Our Government treats public money like their own private slush fund.

A197832879 hours ago


Except the Typhoon isn't American it was made primarily by French and British.​
_____
JM872 days ago


They beat them in "dogfight". They said the "12 - 0" was in close air combat.
anybody who knows about military aviation knows the su30 is superior to the typhoon in dogfight.
so what are the hidden technologies RAF did not use? unless their typhoons have a "secret" thrust vectoring system (which they don't), there are no secret technologies they could use to beat a thrust vectoring plane like the SU30 in a close air combat.
_____
CAMERONSEND3 days ago


Our jets have health and safety experts in the back seat.And they will not allow any aggression from our pilots.One raf win and their out.
_____
RAND0611 114 points 1 day ago*

prompting an RAF source to label his claim “comical”.

“There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form.”

they did not make full use of their more advanced weapons systems.

So it sounds like either A. The Indians are tooting their own horns here or B. The British are butthurt. Both of which are equally likely.

Realistically, the RAF probably shyed away from using their advanced equipment in order not to give away any secrets.

EDIT: Here are some cool photos from the exercise in question

EDIT 2: I wanted to add [this article as well](www.defencenow.com/news/250/britain-claims-eurofighter-typhoon-as-the-best-choice-for-indian-mmrca-deal.html). It is the result of a past RAF-IAF exercises which shows the Typhoon actually beating the Su-30 in aerial combat.

_____
PhysicsIsMyMistress 37 points 1 day ago

Realistically, the RAF probably shyed away from using their advanced equipment in order not to give away any secrets.

How is this not the "I was going easy on you/I didn't really care" sore loser response?

_____
Elguybrush 3 points 1 day ago

exactly, Starting with "They're making their win up!" and following with "and we weren't even trying that hard to win anyway" is such a blatant tell

_____
 
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Mad Indian

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IAF fucked the Typhoons hollow Brits. Just deal with it rather than being a sore loser bitching and whining and giving pathetic excuses. The more excuses you give, the more satisfying it is for going heehah heeha over our thrashing of Typhooons.


Anyway, this what IAF has to say about this incident :pound::rofl:. So much for the BS being peddled that the Typhoons fought with their hands tied


So Vishnu Som was 100% accurate in his article :D
 

pmaitra

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So Vishnu Som was 100% accurate in his article :D
I am sure that is a sarcasm.

Vishnu Som can tell us the name of the IAF pilot who said the things that he claimed. Where did he get that 12-0 number from?

Coming back the point, it was never about IAF beating RAF 12-0. It was about IAF beating RAF 12-0 in close combat.

Sukhoi-30 has thrust vectoring. Typhoon ain't got none. It is not rocket science. In close combat, Typhoon is less than a match for Sukhoi-30.

Said that, do we have the name of an IAF pilot who stated that 12-0 number?
 

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