Today China is what US was

[Daredevil]

I merely named offhand some Taiwanese companies and the industries that they are involved with. However, since you raised the issue, you might find it interesting to know what American media thinks of Taiwanese companies and China. The following is an article from America's premiere business magazine, BusinessWeek. I consider Forbes as the second most-influential American business magazine.

Why Taiwan Matters

"Why Taiwan Matters
The global economy couldn't function without it. But can it really find peace with China?

Want to find the hidden center of the global economy? Take a drive along Taiwan's Sun Yat-sen Freeway. This stretch of road is how you reach the companies that connect the vast marketplaces and digital powerhouses of the U.S. with the enormous manufacturing centers of China.
...
Taiwan's success is also China's. No one knows for sure how much of China's exports in information and communications hardware are made in Taiwanese-owned factories, but the estimates run from 40% to 80%. As many as 1 million Taiwanese live and work on the mainland. "All the manufacturing capacity in China is overlaid with the management and marketing expertise of the Taiwanese, along with all their contacts in the world," observes Russell Craig, of tech consultants Vericors Inc.
...
China may threaten Taiwan as No. 1 IT supplier. But for now it's Taiwanese engineers who provide ever-more-ingenious solutions to manufacturing and design conundrums."

You are missing the main point. Most of the high-tech exports from China are not the Chinese technology but rather foreign technology. China is jut being used for manufacturing their stuff because of cheap labor nothing else. Don;t delude yourself that China is the reason behind such high-technology.

US is still the number one leader in high-end technology. China doesn't develop technology like a Microsoft Windows or Nokia Phones or an Apple computer. At the most Chinese are good at making cheap knock-offs of above said technology. There are not many world renowned Chinese companies that can challenge the technology coming from US or other western countries.

No matter how much you would want to convince me by passing off Taiwanese as Chinese, I'm not going to accept such stories. China is China and Taiwan is Taiwan. No other way.

I have no expertise in the field of IQ research. I merely read the Wikipedia article regarding "IQ and Global Inequality." If you are unhappy with the results, please contact Dr. Richard Lynn or Dr. Tatu Vanhanen.

As I said before IQ tests conducted in different countries is different and results of IQ tests are subject to discussion. In some countries the IQ test might be easy and in some it might be tough and so you get misrepresentation of IQ values. That is why I say, the IQ business is not reliable as the IQ tests are not standardized tests across the countries.

If you don't know much about IQ research, then don't attempt to convince me on this.

Still not convinced that China is breathing down the U.S. neck?

Still not convinced Martian.

China is far far away, before it can challenge the hegemony of US in terms of economy, military, technology, or even education. Take a chill pill and relax. Don't get worked up over something non-existent and then try to convince me about it.

 

[badguy2000]

You are missing the main point. Most of the high-tech exports from China are not the Chinese technology but rather foreign technology. China is jut being used for manufacturing their stuff because of cheap labor nothing else. Don;t delude yourself that China is the reason behind such high-technology.

US is still the number one leader in high-end technology. China doesn't develop technology like a Microsoft Windows or Nokia Phones or an Apple computer. At the most Chinese are good at making cheap knock-offs of above said technology. There are not many world renowned Chinese companies that can challenge the technology coming from US or other western countries.

No matter how much you would want to convince me by passing off Taiwanese as Chinese, I'm not going to accept such stories. China is China and Taiwan is Taiwan. No other way.

well, Indian labour,African labour are even cheaper than CHina...why doesn't "foreign tech" use "India labour" and "African labour" to manufacture ?

obvioulsy you simplify the case tooo much.

both USA and Russia are inducting High-speed railways from China.... is high-speed railway high-tech?
BTW, I read a piece of news about high-speed railway in CHina..
WuHan-Guangzhou railway (1068KM long and longest in the world)got finished one month ago and its operational speed is 394 KM/Per hour and creates a new world record.

?????????394?????????????
?????????394?????????????


case is that you dare not face the fact that CHinese are climbing along the value chain and expelling USA and other developed countries out of high-tech areas one by one and day by day..... and leave India far far behind.

 

[nitesh]

I agree. The Chinese need to relax. They're wary of Uncle Sam and they're worried that the bogeyman will get them. What did they expect? They've got a $2.3 trillion dollar hoard. Everybody in the world is looking at that money.

Or a liability that they are unable to get rid off

 

[Daredevil]

well, Indian labour,African labour are even cheaper than CHina...why doesn't "foreign tech" use "India labour" and "African labour" to manufacture ?

Infrastructure is the problem in these countries. You have cheap labor and infrastructure and SEZs which allows faster production ans transport of cheap goods. But this by no means indication of China being a high-technology power house as Martian is trying to convince. China is still a low-cost assembler of high-technology stuff for foreign companies.

both USA and Russia are inducting High-speed railways from China.... is high-speed railway high-tech?
BTW, I read a piece of news about high-speed railway in CHina..
WuHan-Guangzhou railway (1068KM long and longest in the world)got finished one month ago and its operational speed is 394 KM/Per hour and creates a new world record.

We will see when they are inducted. BTW, V150 of France is the fastest high-speed rail with a speed of 574.8 km/hr. So China is not going to break any new world record.

case is that you dare not face the fact that CHinese are climbing along the value chain and expelling USA and other developed countries out of high-tech areas one by one and day by day..... and leave India far far behind.

We dare to face the facts and we are not denying that China is moving up the value-chain and so does India as can be seen from its IT software exports of 40 billion. In fact we have left China far behind in IT field which is very high up in value chain. India is only left-behind in producing cheap goods by China.

 

[badguy2000]

Infrastructure is the problem in these countries. You have cheap labor and infrastructure and SEZs which allows faster production ans transport of cheap goods. But this by no means indication of China being a high-technology power house as Martian is trying to convince. China is still a low-cost assembler of high-technology stuff for foreign companies.



We will see when they are inducted. BTW, V150 of France is the fastest high-speed rail with a speed of 574.8 km/hr. So China is not going to break any new world record.

V150's 574.8KM/hr is a speed in experiment while CHR's 394 KM/HR is opertional speed....which is quite different.

 

[Daredevil]

V150's 574.8KM/hr is a speed in experiment while CHR's 394 KM/HR is opertional speed....which is quite different.

Forgot to add. Even Japanese Maglevs are the fastest ones. The operational speeds are above 450 km/hr. While the highest record is 581 km/hr.

JR?Maglev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[badguy2000]

Forgot to add. Even Japanese Maglevs are the fastest ones. The operational speeds are above 450 km/hr. While the highest record is 581 km/hr.

JR?Maglev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW, when does Japanese have Maglevs?

Japanese "Shinkansen" doesn't use the tech of maglev.

the only operational maglev in the world is in Shanghai.

the "450KM/hr" you refers is also "max testing speed during experiments " of "Shinkansen".

the max opertional speed of Japanese "Shinkansen" is just 270-300 KM/Hr.

the max testing speed of high-speed railways is recorded by France's TVG-150(max testing speed 574.8 KM/HR).

CHinese CHR3 records a max opertional speed of 394 KM/HR . it is the world record of opertional speed.

BTW, Chinese high-speed railway combines the tech of Japanese and Europe and cost much less than Japnese ones and European ones.

the smooth operation of several finished Chinese highspeed railways ( Beijing-Tian,SHanghai-Nanjing, Guangzhou-WUhan...etc) proves the tech of CHR very mature and good cost performance

 

[Martian]

Some of you...ahem, Daredevil...are still not convinced by my liberal use of powerful logic and statistics. This calls for a new approach. Let's try something more visceral and easier to understand.

After the loss of the Twin Towers, the Empire State Building has resumed its role as the symbol of American power and prosperity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD5qhPqEBFU

Currently, construction is underway for the Shanghai Tower and it is scheduled to be completed by 2014.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9S7lx_0bBg

After watching both videos, would you agree that "today China is what US was?"

 

[Martian]

from the above

But, apparently, some in China didn’t appreciate the honor. China Daily, the state-run English-language newspaper, in a somewhat paranoid-sounding piece on its front page today, cites Chinese “experts” saying that the ranking is the “latest attempt by the Western media to tout China for their own good.” (Okay, well, mea culpa, perhaps, in regard to this particular post.) The newspaper paraphrases one expert as saying that the ranking “was partly aimed at trumpeting the so-called China threat,” and quotes him saying that it’s the “latest sign of the U.S. media’s change from China bashing to China flattery.”

Here is the latest reason that the Chinese are rightfully "somewhat-paranoid" about the United States. The United States is always picking on China.

U.S. sees robust climate talks, no reparations | Reuters

"They also warned that China, with its booming economy, would not be a recipient of any U.S. aid, even though the Asian heavyweight is considered a developing country under U.N. rules.
...
Stern warned, however, that China, with its booming economy and large reserves of U.S. dollars, would not be a recipient of financial aid from Washington.

'I don't envision public funds, certainly not from the United States, going to China....'"

Here we go again. Let's ignore the U.N. rules and arbitrarily disqualify only the Chinese. How can you have a rule-based system if the Chinese are constantly being whacked on the head? Why discourage the Chinese from building more wind-turbine generators? Less carbon emissions is good for everyone.

When their country is underwater, somebody better tell the Bangladeshis that the rich U.S. ($47,000 GDP per capita) decided to score political points against the poor Chinese ($3,200 GDP per capita) and this prevented the buildout of massive Chinese wind-farms.

 

[Daredevil]

CHinese CHR3 records a max opertional speed of 394 KM/HR . it is the world record of opertional speed.

BTW, Chinese high-speed railway combines the tech of Japanese and Europe and cost much less than Japnese ones and European ones.

the smooth operation of several finished Chinese highspeed railways ( Beijing-Tian,SHanghai-Nanjing, Guangzhou-WUhan...etc) proves the tech of CHR very mature and good cost performance

CHR3 is a derivative of Siemens Velaro, so you cannot even call it as Chinese technology. You are just importing technology. That puts the claims that Chinese is a pace where high-technology stuff is being produced in the dust bin and you giving example of CHR3 for that is a failed effort.

China Railways CRH3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Daredevil]

Some of you...ahem, Daredevil...are still not convinced by my liberal use of powerful logic and statistics. This calls for a new approach. Let's try something more visceral and easier to understand.

After the loss of the Twin Towers, the Empire State Building has resumed its role as the symbol of American power and prosperity.

Currently, construction is underway for the Shanghai Tower and it is scheduled to be completed by 2014.

After watching both videos, would you agree that "today China is what US was?"

Empire state building was designed and constructed by Americans indicating their technology prowess. Even now, despite all the hullabaloo about China's high-tech prowess, to design and construct Shanghai Tower it needs the help of Americans and cannot do it own. This definitely is not a sign of technology superpower.

Even Dubai has constructed Burj Dubai building, the tallest man-made structure. Are we to assume that Dubai is a technology super-power??.

I'm still not convinced Martian and I can say that you wont be able to convince me because I know exactly where is the standing of China when it comes to high-tech stuff. Its better for you to spend your time some thing worthwhile instead of wasting time on convincing me.

 

[Martian]

Empire state building was designed and constructed by Americans indicating their technology prowess. Even now, despite all the hullabaloo about China's high-tech prowess, to design and construct Shanghai Tower it needs the help of Americans and cannot do it own. This definitely is not a sign of technology superpower.

Even Dubai has constructed Burj Dubai building, the tallest man-made structure. Are we to assume that Dubai is a technology super-power??.

I'm still not convinced Martian and I can say that you wont be able to convince me because I know exactly where is the standing of China when it comes to high-tech stuff. Its better for you to spend your time some thing worthwhile instead of wasting time on convincing me.

You're thinking too narrowly. I realize that my chances of convincing a die-hard are slim. However, think of how many others that I have already convinced. Aha, you didn't see that one coming, did you?

Both New York and Shanghai are the financial capitals of two economic superpowers. For our purposes, an economic superpower is a continental country with a landmass of over 1 million square miles and a four-trillion-dollar-plus economy. Both the United States and China are trading superpowers with an annual turnover of over one trillion dollars in merchandise goods. Dubai is insignificant and a weak analogy.

It is true that Americans won the open-bidding competition for the design of the Shanghai Tower. However, the bidding could just as easily have gone to a Chinese design-firm. The Chinese build their own skyscrapers. Similarly, China built its own world's-largest Three Gorges Dam. The Burj Dubai is being built by Korea's Samsung. Dubai and most countries in the world are incapable of building their own skyscrapers or dams. Your Dubai analogy is getting really weak.

 

[Daredevil]

You're thinking too narrowly. I realize that my chances of convincing a die-hard are slim. However, think of how many others that I have already convinced. Aha, you didn't see that one coming, did you?

Both New York and Shanghai are the financial capitals of two economic superpowers. For our purposes, an economic superpower is a continental country with a landmass of over 1 million square miles and a four-trillion-dollar-plus economy. Both the United States and China are trading superpowers with an annual turnover of over one trillion dollars in merchandise goods. Dubai is insignificant and a weak analogy.

It is true that Americans won the open-bidding competition for the design of the Shanghai Tower. However, the bidding could just as easily have gone to a Chinese design-firm. The Chinese build their own skyscrapers. Similarly, China built its own world's-largest Three Gorges Dam. The Burj Dubai is being built by Korea's Samsung. Dubai and most countries in the world are incapable of building their own skyscrapers or dams. Your Dubai analogy is getting really weak.

Dubai analogy is to show hollowness in your argument that by building a tallest building in Shanghai China is supposed to be presumed as a high-tech power. Just like Dubai by building Burj Dubai is not a high-tech power, neither is China by building Shanghai Tower.

 

[Martian]

Dubai analogy is to show hollowness in your argument that by building a tallest building in Shanghai China is supposed to be presumed as a high-tech power. Just like Dubai by building Burj Dubai is not a high-tech power, neither is China by building Shanghai Tower.

If I understand you correctly, you do not dispute that the Burj Dubai Tower is being built by Samsung.

Also, you are not disputing that there is a very important distinction in that the Chinese possess the technology and construction expertise to build their own skyscrapers and Three Gorges Dam.

Are you saying that you agree with me that Dubai is insignificant and that China possesses the high-tech power aspect of skyscraper-building and gigantic dam-building?

The fact is that China possesses high-technology skyscraper-construction capability and Dubai does not. Therefore, if we're rational beings, we would say that China possesses aspects of high-technology capability and Dubai does not possess any.

I recognize that the building of the Burj Dubai does illustrate Korea's high-tech engineering prowess and construction capability through the Samsung corporation.

Are you ready to concede this round to me?

 

[lurker]

Here is the latest reason that the Chinese are rightfully "somewhat-paranoid" about the United States. The United States is always picking on China.

U.S. sees robust climate talks, no reparations | Reuters

"They also warned that China, with its booming economy, would not be a recipient of any U.S. aid, even though the Asian heavyweight is considered a developing country under U.N. rules.
...
Stern warned, however, that China, with its booming economy and large reserves of U.S. dollars, would not be a recipient of financial aid from Washington.

'I don't envision public funds, certainly not from the United States, going to China....'"

Here we go again. Let's ignore the U.N. rules and arbitrarily disqualify only the Chinese. How can you have a rule-based system if the Chinese are constantly being whacked on the head? Why discourage the Chinese from building more wind-turbine generators? Less carbon emissions is good for everyone.

When their country is underwater, somebody better tell the Bangladeshis that the rich U.S. ($47,000 GDP per capita) decided to score political points against the poor Chinese ($3,200 GDP per capita) and this prevented the buildout of massive Chinese wind-farms.

Oh come now, you are claiming that China is set to be the world's economic superpower and is already the world's industrial power, and you are expecting the basically inferred 'economically impotent' United States to give the Chinese money to fund their own climate responsibilities?, even while we already have plenty of debt? The Chinese are going up, we're going down according to you, and in a short time frame. Let them pay for it themselves if you are correct.

Also I don't know if the 3 gorges dam is a good example.

Three Gorges Dam is a disaster in the making, China admits - Times Online

HowStuffWorks "Why could China's Three Gorges Dam cause an environmental disaster?"

On the other hand the 'economically and industrially bankrupt' United States is set to open the world's first commercial spaceport, and is making progress on the space elevator among other bleeding edge areas of innovation.

Spaceport America

'Space elevator' wins $900,000 NASA prize - space - 06 November 2009 - New Scientist

The pessimism spoken of in the front article could easily be attributed to the recession, which is set to end soon. It is conveniently not mentioned that the numbers are actually an improvement on the numbers during the deeper part of the recession. Why wouldn't these numbers go up again as the economy recovers?

RealClearPolitics - Articles - American Optimism Makes a Comeback

Survey: American Optimism for Future Trumps Worry Over Economy

Homegrown American optimism

 

[Martian]

We have another challenger.

"Oh come now, you are claiming that China is set to be the world's economic superpower and is already the world's industrial power, and you are expecting the basically inferred 'economically impotent' United States to give the Chinese money to fund their own climate responsibilities?, even while we already have plenty of debt? The Chinese are going up, we're going down according to you, and in a short time frame. Let them pay for it themselves if you are correct.

Also I don't know if the 3 gorges dam is a good example." (Posted by lurker)

What I'm saying is very nuanced. I'm saying that despite being a poor country, China possesses world-class engineering and manufacturing expertise and capability. Want me to post a picture of the Chinese spacewalk again?

Imageshack - baramundi.jpg

Look at the first column of cumulative carbon emissions from 1751-2004. The red part (representing US) is four times larger than the blue part (representing China).

Since the US is responsible for four times the cumulative carbon emissions in comparison to China and China is defined by the UN as a poor country, why would the US (13 times richer in per capita GDP) discriminate against the poor Chinese and refuse to help them build wind-farms to ameliorate the effects of the majority carbon-emissions emitted by the US and EU from 1751-2004?

I read your linked article on the Three Gorges Dam. I hate misleading sensationalist headlines.

"A government forum listed a host of threats such as conflicts over land shortages, ecological deterioration as a result of irrational development and, especially, erosion and landslides on steep hills around the dam. Other authorities have already raised concerns over algae bloom downstream from the Three Gorges and a deterioration in aquatic life."

The big problems are basically erosion, landslides, and algae bloom. Are you saying that erosion, landslides, and algae bloom are not problems for US dams, such as the Hoover Dam shortly after its construction? Aren't these basically typical problems for most newly-constructed dams?

 

[Daredevil]

The fact is that China possesses high-technology skyscraper-construction capability and Dubai does not. Therefore, if we're rational beings, we would say that China possesses aspects of high-technology capability and Dubai does not possess any.

I recognize that the building of the Burj Dubai does illustrate Korea's high-tech engineering prowess and construction capability through the Samsung corporation.

Are you ready to concede this round to me?

If China possess the capability to build sky scrapers in the scale of Burj Dubai then why are Chinese taking help of Americans to design and build Shanghai Tower. Shanghai Tower is designed by Gensler and structurally engineered by Thornton Tomasetti Inc, both of them American firms. And there is nothing to concede.

 

[Martian]

If China possess the capability to build sky scrapers in the scale of Burj Dubai then why are Chinese taking help of Americans to design and build Shanghai Tower. Shanghai Tower is designed by Gensler and structurally engineered by Thornton Tomasetti Inc, both of them American firms. And there is nothing to concede.

Instead of getting stuck in the morass of which company is responsible for building which part of the skyscraper, let me try something more clear-cut.

Would you agree that it takes high-technology prowess in engineering capability and expertise to launch a man into space and conduct a spacewalk? Would you also agree that China has already conducted her spacewalk and that Europe and Japan are not conducting their first spacewalk in the near-future? Would you also be willing to agree that Dubai is not likely to conduct a spacewalk in the next 1,000 years? Now will you concede that China possesses aspects of high-technology and that Dubai is insignificant?

 

[Martian]

Look at this. The pot and kettle are pointing fingers at each other again. Our world is a crazy zoo.

FOXNews.com - U.S. Swings Back at China in Copenhagen

"President Obama's top climate change negotiator arrived in Copenhagen Wednesday swinging back at Chinese demands for the United States to increase its emission reduction goals.

"With respect to our emissions, it's true our emissions have gone up since 1990," Todd Stern acknowledged. But he added, "the country whose emissions are going up, dramatically, really dramatically is China."
...
The Chinese have been critical of the U.S. proposal to bring greenhouse gas emissions down 17 percent by 2020. At the same time, the U.S. argues advanced developing nations like China need to do their part.

Chinese officials have said they will spring to action if the United States contributes significantly to a proposed $10 billion a year fund to help vulnerable countries adapt to climate change policies. China -- despite its growing economy -- is technically considered a developing nation.

Stern dismissed the idea that U.S. taxpayer money would eventually end up in China, which currently holds nearly $800 billion in U.S. debt.
...
Meantime, a representative for the group of developing nations expressed disappointment at the direction the negotiations are headed.

Referring to a draft text of an agreement, Lumumba Di-Aping, the Sudanese chairman of the group of 132 developing countries known as G77 plus China, told reporters the document's "overreaching goal is to destroy the balance of obligation between developing and developed, industrialized, western countries. "

He also expressed disdain at another proposal by the developed countries which would seek to avoid more than a 2-degree global temperature rise. "There's no scientific base for the two degree basis," Lumumba said. "Two degrees is a certain death for Africa."

European Union officials refuted that claim.

"There is unequivocal support for Africa," said Artur Runge-Metzger, the European Commission negotiator. "Of course, Ambassador Lumumba is not part of that because he lives in New York, but those people that live in Africa know the intention of the EU.""

 

[Martian]

The New York Times seems to think that "Today China is what US was."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/business/economy/10consume.html

"GUANGZHOU, China — For the first time, Chinese will buy more cars this year than Americans. Demand is so high that drivers put their names on long waiting lists for the most popular models.
...
And it is not just cars. For more and more consumer goods, China is surpassing the United States as the world’s biggest market — from cars to refrigerators to washing machines, even desktop computers.
...
China is pulling ahead at this particular moment partly because Americans, debt-laden and worried about their jobs, are pulling back. After decades of gorging on consumption, Americans are saving. And the Chinese, whom economists thought were addicted to saving, are spending more.

Among China’s 1.3 billion people, rising incomes are finally making large numbers of Chinese prosperous enough to make big-ticket purchases.

...For the first time, China, not the United States, is the locomotive helping to pull the global economy out of recession. But China’s tiny appetite for American exports means that the main benefit has gone to commodity exporters and to businesses in China.

Automakers are on track to sell 12.8 million cars and light trucks in China this year, virtually all of them made in China (although many are foreign brands), compared with 10.3 million in the United States. Appliance manufacturers expect to sell 185 million refrigerators, washing machines and other kitchen and laundry equipment in China this year, compared with 137 million in the American market.

In desktop computers, China moved solidly ahead of the United States in the third quarter, buying 7.2 million compared with 6.6 million in the United States.

Retail sales are growing 17 percent a year in China after adjusting for inflation, almost twice as fast as the overall economy.

Americans have been cutting back on purchases of everything from shoes to furniture to jewelry. But Chinese households are crossing a series of income thresholds at which cars and other big-ticket purchases become affordable."

I tried patents, export volume statistics, Taiwanese are Han Chinese, Huawei, IQ studies, Chinese spacewalk, Shanghai Tower, Three Gorges Dam, and a few other things that I can't remember.

With this New York Times article, are we all finally in agreement that "Today China is what US was?"