Thousands of Hong Kong students start week-long boycott

s002wjh

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I somewhat agree that what they are doing by paralyzing HK's financial area is completely wrong. they are just harming economic growth of themselves and disturbing normal life of citizens. I cannot say if they should or shouldnt continue with the protests at such a high level, But with the kind of power CCP holds, only protests of these levels might show any effect against them.

By freedoms, i meant freedom of speech, freedom of press etc. Do you really think CCP will tolerate this? They have already blocked Instagram, and many other social networking sites in mainland to not let the chinese populations know about protests, as these could embolden the pro-democracy groups in Mainland.

And Sir, If I may tell you, 4-5% of population is a lot. And some people might be against these protests, but Im damn sure nobody is not caring about them.
HK has freedom of speech/press since 1997, it does not has free election similar to US. CCP block net in mainland, that always the case, but watch HK news, and you know its not block in HK.

Not some over 40% against it, they prefer stability, the rest 50% dont care enough to join the protest :)
 

s002wjh

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Any opposition to an oppressive regime that has ruled for a long time begins with a small incident. And then snowballs. That is what Beijing is scared of.

Especially when the rulers have kept many mainland cities suffering after growth slowdown on a tight leash by censorship and repression.

If the CCP is confident that the youth have been indoctrinated enough/tame enough they would not need that kind of strong censorship. The situation in China is a clear lesson in repression... that a regime that embarks on a repressive path once can never relax.... because of two reasons ... One because the oppressors continue to become more and more paranoid and the oppressed more and more thirsty for rumours against the regime that prevents free flow of information. Both spur more repression, eventually leading to an eruption somewhere.

Without China finding a way to ease the situation in Hong Kong soon, there will be continued build up. But pushed for survival, the party with a leadership that will not want to lose the comforts gained over the ages may resort to more oppression.
mainlander care about stability, corruption, etc. HK often call mainlander "locust" etc, look down upon mainlander, so dont expect too much sympathy from mainlander.
mainland repression 80s vs now do a research.
you are presume mainlander will raise up follow the HK, which is pretty much not gonna happen during Arab spring, china didn't even block those info, there are rumor of china spring, but it never happen. just wait few weeks and see what happen
 

s002wjh

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If China does anything close to Tianamen Square in Hong Kong, then there could be heavy trade-sanctions, according to market analysts:

Hong Kong Protests Trigger New Worries for China's Economy - Businessweek



If New York crooks are growing the balls to threaten consequences for China, then things must be really bad.
i doubt china will forceful intervene, they will just sit and watch HK economy goto shithole, and most HK resident will start complain about the protest. even right now there are about 40-45% HK against protestor due to instability to its economy. furthermore china control about 60-70% fresh water and 70% energy of HK.
 

mylegend

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It seems that the CCP is not going to back down to the crowd. Given the result of recent poll, CCP have perfect rationale to not back down. However, it seems that the students and occupiers will also not back down. The combined result is a devastated Hong Kong economy. The movement may just fade away like occupy wall street as people do not see gain to disturbance.
 

no smoking

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After following the movement for a while, I would say the government need to give in the some if not almost all demand of students and occupy group. Unlike mainland where poor general education could cause a severely dysfunctional democracy. Hong Kong's resident's average income , average education level, and existing system of law should be able to support a functional democracy. However, there should be two pre-condition, all who cooperate with foreign parties, received payment from US and UK government should be punished. Any speech of independence should be consider as treason after full democracy is established. UK's position is also hilarious because it never even consider democracy in HK.
The problem is Hong Kong people is not willing to pay anything for their democracy.
They want a completely political independence or freedom while demanding mainland to support its prosperity economically.
It is acting like a spoiled kid attitude to his parents: pay my living cost but shut up.
 

amoy

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to a big extent I sympathize with the students and their petitions, of political and economic agenda, very much similar to the Occupy Wall Street Movement. however, IMO

- it has to be within the legal framework peacefully. the Congress in Beijing is the supreme legislature under one country two systems (though a fiasco I said).

- HK police is at that. no role for PLA to intervene as some speculate.

- practically Beijing is unlikely to budge this time over the precondition for direct election of HK Chief to filter candidature through a grand "committee".

- of course there're "external forces" at work to take advange of the event. nothing new under the sun.

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nimo_cn

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If China does anything close to Tianamen Square in Hong Kong, then there could be heavy trade-sanctions, according to market analysts:

Hong Kong Protests Trigger New Worries for China's Economy - Businessweek



If New York crooks are growing the balls to threaten consequences for China, then things must be really bad.
The decline of HK as a financial hub wont make China's economy suffer, the report is totally overstating the importance of HK. what is happening has more impact on HK's economy than on mainland's. A politically unstable HK is driving investors away, even many HK based tycoons are transfering their money to somewhere else.

An economically weak HK might be a bad thing for HK people, but it wont be so bad for China. Because it will knock out all the superiority they think they are enjoying and bring this defying to an end.

what CCP needs to do is doing nothing. the majority HK people are still silent for now, they will voice their opinions when their abundant life is threatened by these continuing political movements.

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Meriv90

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The problem is Hong Kong people is not willing to pay anything for their democracy.
They want a completely political independence or freedom while demanding mainland to support its prosperity economically.
It is acting like a spoiled kid attitude to his parents: pay my living cost but shut up.
please smoking could you explain to me (no sarcasm intended in the question) how does the mainland support HK?

doesn't survive alone by its financial sector and logistic one? How does the mainland help?
 

nimo_cn

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It seems that the CCP is not going to back down to the crowd. Given the result of recent poll, CCP have perfect rationale to not back down. However, it seems that the students and occupiers will also not back down. The combined result is a devastated Hong Kong economy. The movement may just fade away like occupy wall street as people do not see gain to disturbance.
for sure CCP wont back down, for what cause? because they protest? they are already spoiled kids, How much further will they take it if CCP gives up principles and compromises?

this movement may fade away, but another will come soon, it's clear that this is gonna be a long battle. people should get patient.

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CCP

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please smoking could you explain to me (no sarcasm intended in the question) how does the mainland support HK?

doesn't survive alone by its financial sector and logistic one? How does the mainland help?
2 major mainland cities are the victims of Hong Kong's financial sector and logistic sector from CCP's directly interfere.

Financial sector: ShangHai
Logistic sector : ShenZhen

Hong Kong may lose CCP's support on those two sectors if it go further.

A signal from CCP is already here, some mainland travel companies stopped tours to Hong Kong.
 
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Srinivas_K

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China's biggest political challenge since Tiananmen in 1989

Beijing faces a choice in Hong Kong between repression and climbdown


The demonstrations on the streets of Hong Kong present China with its biggest political challenge since the pro-democracy movement was crushed in and around Tiananmen Square in 1989. The parallels between the demonstrations in Hong Kong now and those in Beijing, 25 years ago are eerie – and must be profoundly unsettling to the Communist party LEADERSHIP. Once again, the demonstrations are led by students demanding democratic reform. Once again, the central authorities have lost control – and risk facing a choice between repression and a humiliating climbdown. Once again, the ultimate question is the POWER and authority of the Communist party in Beijing.
The differences between Hong Kong in 2014 and Beijing in 1989 are also significant, however. In the intervening 25 years, China has become an immeasurably richer and more powerful country. The Chinese authorities will also be hoping that the current demonstrations in Hong Kong, which started under the banner of the "Occupy Central" movement, will have more in common with "Occupy WALL STREET" – which fizzled out – than with the student movement in China in 1989. Finally, the authorities have more leeway than in 1989, if they choose to use it, because Hong Kong is not the capital of the country – it is a regional city, which enjoys a special status under the formula of "one country, two systems" that underpinned the handover from British to Chinese rule.

Under that formula, Hong Kong continues to enjoy a free press and an independent judiciary – FREEDOMS that do not exist on the mainland. The question now is whether Hong Kong will be allowed to take the next step towards democracy and to choose its own chief executive, without the candidates being pre-screened by Beijing.
An intelligent response from the Communist party would allow Hong Kong to act as a testbed for democratic reforms. The formula of one country, two systems – allied with the territory's wealth and sophistication – is perfectly designed to allow Hong Kong to proceed with democratic reforms without triggering immediate demands for similar changes on the mainland. A successful and democratic Hong Kong might then serve as a model for the gradual introduction of similar reforms at a local and city level in the rest of China.
Unfortunately, the central government in Beijing seems determined to take the opposite path. It cannot risk allowing democracy to flourish within China's borders. It cannot allow the express wishes of the party to be flouted. By taking this decision, China has set itself on the path of confrontation with the demonstrators. If they do not drift away, the risk of violent INTERVENTION by China obviously rises.
It did not – and does not – have to be this way. For some years after the handover in 1997, it looked as if China was handling Hong Kong with impressive tact and sophistication. The press stayed free; the courts stayed independent. Beijing even allows a moving commemoration of Tiananmen to take place every June 4. Four years ago Martin Lee, the VETERAN pro-democracy campaigner, told me that he had been "pleasantly surprised" by the extent to which China had allowed Hong Kong to preserve its freedoms. But earlier this year, when I met Mr Lee again, his views had changed completely. Now he warned that Beijing seemed intent on denying Hong Kong democracy and eroding the independence of the courts.
What has changed? Perhaps the Communist party in Beijing has become more assertive and less tolerant. Perhaps it was never willing to risk real democracy emerging in Hong Kong.

Over the next few days, the world's eyes will be on the streets of Hong Kong. But the public's reaction in mainland China will also be crucial. The development that Beijing must fear most is the SPREAD of pro-democracy demonstrations to the mainland.
Beijing is trying to block news from Hong Kong on the official Chinese media and ON THE INTERNET. If the demonstrations continue, it may also try to exploit a latent antagonism between mainlanders and Hong Kong citizens. In Hong Kong, mainlanders are sometimes portrayed as uncouth interlopers. In China, Hong Kongers are sometimes portrayed as spoiled brats with an unpatriotic nostalgia for colonial rule.
Podcast

The idea that Hong Kong citizens are less than truly Chinese is something that the nationalist press in China may exploit if the protests ESCALATE. In that, the official reaction to Hong Kong could be reminiscent of Russia's reaction to demonstrations in Ukraine. The Ukrainians and Hong Kongers are embraced as brothers, in Moscow and Beijing, as long as they stay in line. But if they err, they can quickly be denounced as tools of western imperialism.
The difference, of COURSE, is that Hong Kong is part of China's sovereign territory whereas Ukraine is now an independent country. However, a violent denouement to the demonstrations in Hong Kong will disrupt relations between China and the west, almost as surely as the annexation of Crimea destroyed business as usual between Russia and the west. The government in Beijing is now pondering its next move. In the interests of Hong Kong, China, the global economy and international political stability, it is crucial it gets it right.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e1f7562a-4593-11e4-9b71-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3ErkVSbbD

It seems China needs political reforms in this decade, at on point of time CCP will accept people's demands of Democracy,liberty and civil rights.
 
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tramp

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Why would you assume that there is a price to be paid for being democratic? Democracy is the natural state and it is any deviation like autocracy, dictatorship, totaletarianism that should involve a price. Even for the mainland youth who are not indoctrinated that should be the natural state... not the state of automatons or zombies drugged on party propaganda.
Because the mainlanders have been under extreme repression, they no longer recognise that .. it has become a natural state where the party will decide what is good or bad for the people. For some time the party leadership will say one group of leaders are corrupt and persecute them. When another group comes to power it will reverse the process and may be reinstate some purged leaders... we have seen this happen so many times. Including Xi's father who had been sent for hard labour. So long as the corrupt are close to the reigning leader, they remain untouched... otherwise how can you explain the convictions coming only after the suspect is out of power or has fallen from grace?

The problem is Hong Kong people is not willing to pay anything for their democracy.
They want a completely political independence or freedom while demanding mainland to support its prosperity economically.
It is acting like a spoiled kid attitude to his parents: pay my living cost but shut up.
 

Compersion

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Latest News: PRC induces rain and thunderstorms to end the protests. Fact - Fiction ??

BBC Weather - Hong Kong



:laugh:

The ironic thing is the symbol for the protests is:



Umbrella
 
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amoy

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@Compersion the 2nd pic is not abt the protest. instead a ceremony on 1 Oct. - Chinese national day with HK dignitaries being on the stage. long holidays ahead (also for the students)

as predicted Beijing is unlikely to back off - only by means of the electoral committee to filter candidates of HK Chief will Beijing be able to do the last check. in "one country two systems" formula HK is already entitled to high autonomy, such as HK Supreme Court can be consisting of non-Chinese nationals (from English speaking countries of the commonwealth) with the power of final adjudication. the administration becomes very vital for Beijing to avoid confrontations to the central.

and politics is all abt compromises.

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Compersion

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@<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=13044" target="_blank">Compersion</a> the 2nd pic is not abt the protest. instead a ceremony on 1 Oct. - Chinese national day with HK dignitaries being on the stage. long holidays ahead (also for the students)

as predicted Beijing is unlikely to back off - only by means of the electoral committee to filter candidates of HK Chief will Beijing be able to do the last check. in "one country two systems" formula HK is already entitled to high autonomy, such as HK Supreme Court can be consisting of non-Chinese nationals (from English speaking countries of the commonwealth) with the power of final adjudication. the administration becomes very vital for Beijing to avoid confrontations to the central.

and politics is all abt compromises.

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for replying and also referencing.

I thought that second pic was infact a protest albeit a single person in a group of pre-selected attendees:

Ceremonial venue is besieged by democracy activists as city enters its fourth day of massive protests

Back inside the ceremony, one guest, district councilor Paul Zimmerman, made a bold display by unfurling a yellow umbrella in support of the protestors. Another guest, district councilor and former radio personality Pamela Peck, was entirely clad in yellow — the Umbrella Revolution's symbolic color.
https://time.com/3450960/hong-kong-...mocracy-umbrella-revolution-occupy-hong-kong/

[video]http://wp.me/p5HMd-etKE[/video]

See after 1.02

Also about backing off. I hope you are right and this getting settled peacefully and maturely. There is history where PRC government has backed off and listened to Hong Kong people before:

Hong Kong 1 July marches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law_Article_23

The only ones that seem to have backed off at this moment are the police. but who knows they might be taking a rest.

Whats going to happen in the next few days. Like you said a couple of holidays coming up.

***** Added later:

You also added a fascinating point about the judiciary having non-chinese participants. Also be careful it is not Hong Kong Supreme Court. But it is Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal. The Supreme Court of Hong Kong is technically in PRC and CCP leaders.

What you describe is Non-Permanent Judge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_(Hong_Kong)

After the transfer of sovereignty the Supreme Court was renamed as the High Court and the High Court of the former Supreme Court was renamed the Court of First Instance. Appeals from the Court of Appeal (and where there is such a direct appeal, the Court of First Instance) are now heard by the Court of Final Appeal which was established on 1 July 1997.
Reading about that it is a advanced and technical discussion on exploring autonomy and you have a support for your view.

But I always wondered does being non-chinese improve the legal system and make it have more autonomy. outsiders and non-chinese participants are used for what reason. somesay to remove the impression the courts are Pro-PRC and maintain the independence and image of hong kong judiciary. but i always thought the rule of law is a process and is not shaped by the color of the skin. i am sure the best judges and lawyers in hong kong are chinese. also transparency within the legal system and its similarity with the common law system is the reason why such people come and participate and also the money is good. plus hong kong gets value for money. the cases that reach the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal i am sure majority are ones that do not require PRC interference. The ones that do reach PRC would be fascinating to see what and who the non-permanent judges are and what they say.

Under the Basic Law, the constitutional document of Hong Kong, the special administrative region remains a common law jurisdiction. Judges from other common law jurisdictions can be recruited and serve in the judiciary as non-permanent judges according to Article 92 of the Basic Law. Judges appointed pursuant to Article 92 have typically served in the judiciaries of England and Wales or Australia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Final_Appeal_(Hong_Kong)

Article 92
Judges and other members of the judiciary of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be chosen on the basis of their judicial and professional qualities and may be recruited from other common law jurisdictions.
http://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/text/en/basiclawtext/chapter_4.html

Article 158
The power of interpretation of this Law shall be vested in the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress.

The Standing Committee of the National People's Congress shall authorize the courts of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to interpret on their own, in adjudicating cases, the provisions of this Law which are within the limits of the autonomy of the Region.

The courts of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region may also interpret other provisions of this Law in adjudicating cases. However, if the courts of the Region, in adjudicating cases, need to interpret the provisions of this Law concerning affairs which are the responsibility of the Central People's Government, or concerning the relationship between the Central Authorities and the Region, and if such interpretation will affect the judgments on the cases, the courts of the Region shall, before making their final judgments which are not appealable, seek an interpretation of the relevant provisions from the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress through the Court of Final Appeal of the Region. When the Standing Committee makes an interpretation of the provisions concerned, the courts of the Region, in applying those provisions, shall follow the interpretation of the Standing Committee. However, judgments previously rendered shall not be affected.

The Standing Committee of the National People's Congress shall consult its Committee for the Basic Law of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region before giving an interpretation of this Law.

Article 159
The power of amendment of this Law shall be vested in the National People's Congress.

The power to propose bills for amendments to this Law shall be vested in the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, the State Council and the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. Amendment bills from the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be submitted to the National People's Congress by the delegation of the Region to the National People's Congress after obtaining the consent of two-thirds of the deputies of the Region to the National People's Congress, two-thirds of all the members of the Legislative Council of the Region, and the Chief Executive of the Region.

Before a bill for amendment to this Law is put on the agenda of the National People's Congress, the Committee for the Basic Law of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall study it and submit its views.

No amendment to this Law shall contravene the established basic policies of the People's Republic of China regarding Hong Kong.
http://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/text/en/basiclawtext/chapter_8.html

You ought to read the Hong Kong Constitution. It is a document in PRC territory agreed by PRC leaders for Chinese people.

a better question to ask is why doesnt PRC judge(s) even retired ones also sit in the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal but non-Chinese nationals (from English speaking countries of the commonwealth) do. perhaps one can say it needs balancing. has this to do with with autonomy and not legal system that is in place. i am sure PRC can argue that this touches upon national security and foreign affairs. perhaps it is because PRC knows it is the final authority on the hong kong legal system (Hong Kong Supreme Court).

The constitution of hong kong states clearly what the protesters are doing is allowed. But i agree it is under one county that is PRC but different system (Hong Kong). i believe the CCP has smarter people managing hong kong affairs compare to the protesters leaders. but the protesters have a message of truth and wide support.

The possibility of universal suffrage in 2007 and 2008. universal suffrage for the election of the Chief Executive in 2007, and for all seats of the Legislative Council in 2008 is not ruled out under Articles 45 and 68 of the Basic Law, the conservative camp and legal experts in Mainland China have claimed that this would violate the "Principle of gradual and orderly progress" and "in the light of the actual situation" set forth in Articles 45 and 68. The controversy was finally settled through interpretation of Basic Law by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, which ruled out the possibility of universal suffrage in 2007 and 2008 on 26 April 2004.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law

The constitution seems to have been designed to create a conflict between PRC and Hong Kong people ... and it is agreed by three parties PRC, Hong Kong and UK. One cannot blame UK only.

Here are the two articles of the constitution at contention:

Article 45
The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election or through consultations held locally and be appointed by the Central People's Government.

The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress. The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures.

The specific method for selecting the Chief Executive is prescribed in Annex I: "Method for the Selection of the Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region".

Article 68
The Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be constituted by election.

The method for forming the Legislative Council shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress. The ultimate aim is the election of all the members of the Legislative Council by universal suffrage.

The specific method for forming the Legislative Council and its procedures for voting on bills and motions are prescribed in Annex II: "Method for the Formation of the Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and Its Voting Procedures".
http://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_4.html

http://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/annex_1.html

http://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/annex_2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front_(People's_Republic_of_China)

The United Front in the People's Republic of China is a coalition of all of the legally permitted parties in the country, led by the Communist Party of China. Besides the CPC, it includes eight minor parties and the All-China Federation of Industry and Commerce. It is managed by the United Front Work Department (Chinese: 中共中央统战部) of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China. Its current department head is Du Qinglin.
 
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amoy

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the nominating committee for the Chief is the crux of the protest. the opposition wants to do without this committee, whereas Beijing insists it's necessary. this time it is very different from the last one against Article 23. as much as the authority of the central is concerned Beijing won't step back.

and time and again it's repeated interpreting of the Basic Law rests with the SC of the Congress in Beijing.

in the art of compromise neither side shall expect to get what they wish for fully.

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LalTopi

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To all our Chinese forum buddies based in mainland China. How come you are all getting access to all this information? According to all our news sources the Great Firewall of China is in full swing. And I am not just talking about Western news sources (I've been listening to Al Jazeera for example) . Is Instagram censured? Facebook? etc. Where are you getting your information from?

No wisecracks about 50centers etc. I just genuinely want to know what is commonly and openly reported in the Mainland about the HK protests, and whether our reports in the outside world of censorship are correct.
 

nimo_cn

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To all our Chinese forum buddies based in mainland China. How come you are all getting access to all this information? According to all our news sources the Great Firewall of China is in full swing. And I am not just talking about Western news sources (I've been listening to Al Jazeera for example) . Is Instagram censured? Facebook? etc. Where are you getting your information from?

No wisecracks about 50centers etc. I just genuinely want to know what is commonly and openly reported in the Mainland about the HK protests, and whether our reports in the outside world of censorship are correct.
Facebook and Instagram are blocked in mainland China, but most prominent western news outlets are not.

Chinese people who can understand English would have no difficulties in getting information that is censored by CCP. And people who cant read English could get the information by following those who can understand English. Besides, many Chinese in HK share what is happening there in Chinese cyberspace.

As long as you are willing to, you basically can get what you want to know in spite of the great Firewall.

Personally, I read articles from Yahoo news digest on my cellphone. Stories about political movement in HK have been recommended three days in a row by this app, it's hard to ignore.

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