This lightweight packs a punch

[Kunal Biswas]

This lightweight packs a punch

Lightweight, easy to carry and handle, and boasting the smallest cartridge in the world in the 5.56 calibre, the Amogh 5.56 mm carbine is especially soldier-friendly.

Indigenously developed by the Indian Ordnance Factory Board, Amogh is now on the market shelf and being showcased to prospective customers at the 9th biennial Aero India 2013 at Air Force Station, Yelahanka here.

While traditionally the length of the cartridge is 45 mm, this one is 30 mm long.

While the impact and lethality of this carbine that uses the smallest cartridge remains the same as that of the traditional carbine, soldiers can carry more ammunition as the cartridges weigh less, and the carbine weighs less than 3 kg.

"A few thousand of these rifles have been taken by units in the paramilitary forces and the Indian Navy. But now, we are looking for demand from abroad for this latest carbine," Deepak Gupta of the OFB told The Hindu . He said OFB was the first in the world to develop a 30 mm cartridge in the 5.56 calibre. "Even NATO forces use the 45 mm cartridge."

Source : This lightweight packs a punch - The Hindu

 

[SPIEZ]

Sad this wasn't inducted in Indian service.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its under service, But used by Indian Navy..
@Keshav Murali, Did you took pictures ?, It would be nice if so..

Sad this wasn't inducted in Indian service.

@Kunal Biswas @Ray @arnabmit,

My school organized an "educational" trip to the harbor and guess what, we got the opportunity to see a Coast Guard ship, inside out

What did I see? A Samar-class offshore patrol vessel, specifically Sagar.

Pretty pleased with myself, I positively identified the Oto Melara gun, and I saw the bridge, not to mention the captain

And I did go into the helipad, and they exhibited Amogh, INSAS, Carl-Gustav, 51 mm mortar and Bren there, I managed to lift the Bren

It was very modern, I saw hundreds of shiny pieces of equipment (which made no sense) and the officers were surprisingly polite.

P.S. I saw a Kilo-class or a Type 209 sub from distance.

Enjoyed the trip. Can someone tell me which of those subs might have been stationed in Chennai?

 

[ladder]

Sadly the love of Indian security establishment for 9x19 SMG has not died down.
The other day I posted about CISF and RPF are inline to receive MP5s

So, it will be better if OFB and ARDE develop SMG (9x19) variant of Amogh and MSMC to tap into the market.

5.56x30 may have many advantages but It's how things are handled in India and OFB should adapt and present product, which will be able to break the import lobby.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ction-force-all-set-get-mp-5s.html#post761094

 

[hitesh]

logistic issue with new caliber bullet is the main problem .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The replacement occurs unit wise, In such case the unit has to give 9mm carbine and this will be replaced by new 5.56x30mm carbine..

That unit will no longer receive 9mm ammo but 5.56mm onwards, Same will be repeated with other units until all 9mm carbine are replaced completely..

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About Amogh, I like it as its design based on AK, Reliable in worst conditions..

Wonder why IA go for MSMC not Amogh..

logistic issue with new caliber bullet is the main problem .

 

[Twinblade]

Wonder why IA go for MSMC not Amogh..

MSMC is almost half the size of Amogh. A good size for a PDW.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Slight difference there..

Amogh >> (a) Butt Folded 575 mm – (b) Butt Extended 800 mm
MSMC >> 500 mm Closed Stock / 700 mm Open Stock

Interestingly, MSMC is not under-product list on OFB page but Amogh is and Kalantak is there..

MSMC is almost half the size of Amogh. A good size for a PDW.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In Army, Carbine are getting replaced by AK..

Again when we have Amogh carbine operational..

 

[ladder]

In Army, Carbine are getting replaced by AK..

Again when we have Amogh carbine operational..

AFAIK the Amogh carbine was presented to the Army but was rejected in the initial stages of trials.
The confirmed causes of rejection are not available over internet.
But, I have not come across any news that an updated version of Amogh has been made or any redesign has taken place.
Same, is the case of Trichy Assult Rifle.
When rejected by the army, OFB started advertising that both the product are designed keeping in mind CAPFs.

But, main question is the cause of rejection.

I am not an expert in firearms but I would like to broadly divide the parameters into two categories.
1. Parameters which are intrinsic to carbine/rifle design and can be called as basic parameters
2. parameters which are due to doctrine requirement.
But, both may or may not be mutually exclusive.

If the rejection parameter is solely second category, then the carbine can be presented to CAPFs without any modification even if rejected by Army.
But, if the parameter of rejection is first category, then redesign is the only option.

Now, lets consider the case of MSMC.
MSCM to was presented to Army, and it failed trials in the first occasion.
One of the reason we know is the reliability. It achieved 994/1000 rounds fired against 997/1000 requirement.
But, now we know that redesign was carried out and the second model now is under year long deployment trial after clearing the basic trials.

So, why did army give MSMC a second trial and not Amogh?
TAR is out of question as it wasn't a requirement for army in the first place.

For the answer, we have not come across any news that a redesigned Amogh/TAR has been developed.

But, Why hasn't it developed.

The answer must be, the ability of OFB R&D department's ability to redesign, tweak and optimize individual parameters.

For, MSMC ARDE is the main design agency.
for, TAR it's the OFB
for Amogh it's probably is the OFB.

That is one of the probable reason of failure of Amogh and TAR.

The solution is that ARDE should adopt these two product and take up the responsibility of redesigning.

 

[hitesh]

How good this gun is compared to AKSU 74 developed in 1983 ,the over length of AKSU is still shorter than this gun

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are no news about any development of trails, Only rumors were circulated over net..

We don't even know when trails are being conducted, Unlike we get news for new foreign rifles under trails..

IMHO, Amogh suits IA needs better than MSMC coz of its design which resembles AK and INSAS..

---------------

But again >>

1. IA is purchasing Swiss made 9mm sub-machine in very limited numbers for RR, Makes no sense when 9mm was disposed in favor of AK..
2. IA is replacing SMG with AR in regular infantry units, But GSQR is specific for SMG specs, Again makes little logic sense..
3. GSQR demanded 3 kind of SMG designs > Kalantak, Amogh, MSMC and still issue RFI at the end regardless of its success or not ..
4. MSMC and Amogh`s weight for SMG is not an issue they fall in same weight category of Legendary MP5, The RFI carbines are also fall in same weight category.
5. Amogh used in Navy / Paramilitary does indicate its fine otherwise no branch would buy when have import option..

MSMC is fine firearm in my opinion, the delay is coz of weight reduction which is not needed as its same a good old MP5 which is preferred world wide, No one reject MP5 for weight issues..

Also noted that, MSMC specs are degraded also, like reducing the P-rail so does size of the Magazine, But when RFI spec come in, the specs are reverse of GSQR specs given to domestic industry..

AFAIK the Amogh carbine was presented to the Army but was rejected in the initial stages of trials.
The confirmed causes of rejection are not available over internet.

So, why did army give MSMC a second trial and not Amogh?
TAR is out of question as it wasn't a requirement for army in the first place.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Just because its shorter does not mean it have to be better with such a AR caliber and shorter barrel, this lead it to overheating issue and inaccuracy with 5.45x39mm from 210mm barrel..

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AK-74SU >>

Caliber: 5,45x39 mm
Barrel length: 210 mm

------------------

Amogh >>

Calibre : 5.56 x 30 mm ammunition
Length of Barrel : 330 mm

How good this gun is compared to AKSU 74 developed in 1983 ,the over length of AKSU is still shorter than this gun

 

[hitesh]

Just because its shorter does not mean it have to be better with such a AR caliber and shorter barrel, this lead it to overheating issue and inaccuracy with 5.45x39mm from 210mm barrel..

=================
=================

AK-74SU >>

Caliber: 5,45x39 mm
Barrel length: 210 mm

------------------

Amogh >>

Calibre : 5.56 x 30 mm ammunition
Length of Barrel : 330 mm

Sir jee if you remember they actually started developing this gun with actual NATO 5.56 x 45 mm but had trouble with its too powerful cartridge then they add a dampener below the barrel to deal with that problem and called it Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle

but it failed in trials .
Then for the last resort they changed the bullet and made Amogh .

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[Kunal Biswas]

There is no truth in that, If some one circulated it, Its disinformation..

All there design started as per GSQR, Three design of Carbine till date produced, And they passed or fail is just rumors, till date no official have spoken about there trails except MSMC and TAR ..

All three design are different from each other, from gas systems, receivers and barrel length so does ammo..
@pmaitra, provided very interesting info on Kalantak, He can shed more light on this project..

Sir jee if you remember they actually started developing this gun with actual NATO 5.56 x 45 mm but had trouble with its too powerful cartridge then they add a dampener below the barrel to deal with that problem and called it Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle

but it failed in trials .
Then for the last resort they changed the bullet and made Amogh .

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[The Last Stand]

@Kunal Biswas sir,

It was a school trip and my school is paranoid, they didn't let us take cameras.

The gun itself, though, had a beautiful finish and had the stock extended - I have not seen such a perfect finish on something in years together (except for my cricket bat) The magazine was 30 rounds.

That's what I know, but I would have loved to hold that one. Looked light-weight and balanced.

Pity, they did not have live rounds there, if they did, I would probably have loaded one and fired the weapon into the sea just to get a kick out of it.

@hitesh, that barrel was very long, I kid you not. I saw inside the muzzle and almost fainted. At least 12 inches, probably closer to 16.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Will visit Vizaq soon..

 

[ladder]

There are no news about any development of trails, Only rumors were circulated over net..

We don't even know when trails are being conducted, Unlike we get news for new foreign rifles under trails..

IMHO, Amogh suits IA needs better than MSMC coz of its design which resembles AK and INSAS..

---------------

But again >>

1. IA is purchasing Swiss made 9mm sub-machine in very limited numbers for RR, Makes no sense when 9mm was disposed in favor of AK..
2. IA is replacing SMG with AR in regular infantry units, But GSQR is specific for SMG specs, Again makes little logic sense..
3. GSQR demanded 3 kind of SMG designs > Kalantak, Amogh, MSMC and still issue RFI at the end regardless of its success or not ..
4. MSMC and Amogh`s weight for SMG is not an issue they fall in same weight category of Legendary MP5, The RFI carbines are also fall in same weight category.
5. Amogh used in Navy / Paramilitary does indicate its fine otherwise no branch would buy when have import option..

MSMC is fine firearm in my opinion, the delay is coz of weight reduction which is not needed as its same a good old MP5 which is preferred world wide, No one reject MP5 for weight issues..

Also noted that, MSMC specs are degraded also, like reducing the P-rail so does size of the Magazine, But when RFI spec come in, the specs are reverse of GSQR specs given to domestic industry..

I deliberately avoided the political and procurement delays and discrepancies in the post as in my previous post I had mentioned that we can't change that mindset of people in power who decide these procurement.

The only way to secure orders for indigenous products is to make them qualitatively better than competition.

So, the post of mine only dealt with the technical aspect ( if any ) and not political and procurement discrepancies.

The considered failure of Amogh carbine which I mentioned was from below mentioned link and Col. Ajai Shukla's blog.

OFB had also brought its own carbine, AMOGH, to the proving grounds. The Deputy Director General, Research and Development, OFB's representative at Manesar, 'brought out that large numbers of stoppages were observed' during its firing, largely found to be on account of defective feeding of ammunition by the magazine. The Deputy Director General 'opined that the gun has otherwise performed satisfactorily as far as accuracy, consistency and other parameters are concerned'. This weapon was also six times cheaper than the SAR 21 MMS.

Anatomy of a blacklist: Singapore Technologies | StratPost

And

Broadsword: May 2009

 

[Kunal Biswas]

True, But being following these things so long that now only see the root cause..

Though, Thanks for sharing those articles, Was an interesting read.. :cool2:

I deliberately avoided the political and procurement delays and discrepancies in the post as in my previous post I had mentioned that we can't change that mindset of people in power who decide these procurement.

Anatomy of a blacklist: Singapore Technologies | StratPost

And

Broadsword: May 2009

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nice Hi-res Pictures of Amogh Carbine ..

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Work of @tomthounaojam