The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will see

Discussion in 'General Multimedia' started by Rage, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    Your first para is exactly what is wrong with Mankind and socialism. Suddenly you feel "entitled" to the money of the rich , super rich and the upper middle class . The blame must really go to that Marx pig for putting the idea of a shitty idea of "fairness" about why lazy bums must be entitled with the wealth they dint produce. This is classical case of envy. While jealousy of the Human race has lead to competition and betterment of the Human race, envy is quite the opposite. The difference is subtle. While it is perfectly good for you to be jealous of your neighbor for his wife, for which you are entitled for finding a a better wife, it is very bad to be envious of his wife and demand your fair share of through wife. The latter case is envy. While it is perfectly ok for you to want be become rich, it is not ok in any way other than Marxist own delusions of entitlement. ( here you is not personal but it for all socies so don't take it as an ad hominem )


    Yep poor are poor because they are lazy bums and/or because they are stupid.

    Also running in circles for ten hours a day is much more hard work than sitting under AC and provide a medical consultation. Does not mean that the running in circles deserves more pay:rolleyes:


    About the last part regarding more taxes and non sense. Yeah sure we should never learn from history because doing so will make us wise remove socialist crap ideas from brain and put us ahead of the Chimps in thinking power because even Chimps learn from their mistake. As some one wise said " a democracy will work as long as the people don't figure out that they can vote in the government which gives them everything for free". That is also reason why Plato said democracy is a crap idea:D. While you are contemplating it, why don't you think about what happened in socialist India and socialist countries around the world.
     
  2. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    And regardless of what socies think ,a rich person is not at a luxury to his money on his whims and is definitely not a lazy bum. If that were so, his fortunes would run to ground very soon.

    And what I really hate is the way these people try to force "their "compassion on others:rolleyes:. You want be a hermit fine, lose your fortune giving it away to poor but don't force us to follow your non sense.
     
  3. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    Anyway lets see how much touch you are with the poverty of India.

    @Phenom . What is the wage of a koolie in village in TN or in Chennai right now?
     
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  4. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    P.J. O'Rourke: Dear Mr. President, Zero-Sum Doesn't Add Up - WSJ.com

     
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  5. Energon

    Energon DFI stars Stars and Ambassadors

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    Actually this monopolization process is not like the classic models of either a large predatory socialistic government (like India's) or a monarchical autocracy that keeps control through crony capitalism (like what you see in the Oil rich Arab states, Brunei and Egypt until the recent revolution). What we have in the US is a bit different. In fact the monopolization of the marketplace is not the source of the problem, rather it's the outcome of a more insidious problem: which is the manipulation of the legal system and circumvention of the rule of law. Here are a couple of examples of how I think the legal system is being violated...

    Prior to 1994 mortgages in the area where I live (which is probably one of the densest residential market) was held by numerous commercial banks ranging from small local community banks to large trans national ones. Since the late 90s however the overwhelming majority of all these mortgages have been consolidated under just 3 commercial banks which either have their own investment banking division or are tied up with other investment banks. Normally as per fair business practice laws this should have been kept in check, but as it turns out over the years lobbyists hired by these banks have been instituting new rules and loopholes with the help of friendly politicians so that these banks can start engaging in practices that were disallowed before. So the main problem isn't the consolidation of banks, but rather the fact that these people could make new rules as they went along in order to fit their business model. It's not merely the size of the banks that stifles smaller community banks (who possess enough capital to suffice their clientele) what kills them is the new set of rules that entirely favor their competitors (who conveniently wrote the rules themselves).

    The second example is the regulation system itself. A lot of people don't realize that this whole impending regulatory set up of financial industry is a sham. The way it works is that all the regulatory laws will be written by influential members of the lawyer's association. This in turn means every company being regulated has to hire the services of this select group of legal firms in order to decipher the legal jargon they themselves wrote. As Niall Ferguson aptly puts it, "this is not the rule of law, rather it's the rule of lawyers".

    So coming back to the main point, the very rule of law which once protected people, ensured fair competition, and provided opportunities for everyone to succeed has been turned into a tool that allows only a select group of people to enrich themselves. On paper we are still very much a capitalistic democracy with a free market. The problem is that only a few people are able to reap the benefits of this free market.
     
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  6. Phenom

    Phenom Regular Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    Sorry, I didn't read past this.

    I am not sure how to argue with a person with such views so I'll end it here. Just think about this though, every civilized nation on this planet, whether they are authoritarian or democratic or communist or capitalist, makes an effort help its poor. May its because they all know something more about poverty than the belief that its the fault of the poor.

    Also Chandrababu song to freshen up the morning.
    Puthiyulla Manidharellam (Chandrababu song video) - YouTube
     
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  7. jamesvaikom

    jamesvaikom Regular Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    In India Govt. and aided school teachers are getting more salaries than 90% unaided school teachers. Here the problem is instead of making sure that students are getting benefits from Govt. spendings, Govt., politicians and courts are forcing unaided schools to give admissions to poor students. The result is standard of Govt. schools remain bad and standard of unaided schools are degraded to standard of Govt. schools.
     
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  8. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    Nailed it:hail:

    Actually the govt schools are pathetic compared to private ones all round the would not just India. This is what socialism will lead to in reality. Socialist pigs talk on and on about poor and how we should help them with socialism, but what what actually happens is that the middle class and upper middle class will be left to suffer along with the poor(rich are not gonna be affected by socialism contrary to what socialists claim). As you said, its easier to make some one poor but difficult to make some one rich and that is exactly what happens in a socialist system.


    What's even more irritating is the fact that despite suffering under the greatness of socialism for the astounded 50 plus years some of us still have not learned from our mistakes. In that regard even Chimps are better not to do the same blunders again.


    USA is rich thanks to years and years of capitalism and hence they can afford to squander away their wealth through socialist crap but we can't. Hopefully, Indians will learn from their mistakes and shun socialist crap from their brain completely:hmm:
     
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  9. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    Emotional fallacy is not gonna work on me dude:wave:


    Just because you want the poor to be rich won't make poor go away. As I said before this is real world and not a fairy tale .

    Any way lets see how much touch a socialist like you have with the real world now shall we? What is the wage for a koolie(lowest paid worker) in Tamil nadu in Chennai and in peripheral villages?
     
  10. HeinzGud

    HeinzGud Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    No that is wrong US is rich because it has vast natural, economical and human resources. Let's take the British Empire which ruled nearly 1/4 of the world. In those days it was a world super power but after it's colonies got independace i.e British empire lose resources, Britain fell to just a industrial nation states. So capitalism dosen't dictate the entire outcome of the economy.
     
  11. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    Raritan River Railroad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Noah Furman was my great-great-grandfather.
     
  12. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  13. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    So does India. Infact, we have much more Human/natural/economic resource than USA, but we crapped it all around exactly because of Socialism, unlike South Korea, Japan, or other east asian tigers. If you are really interested in "knowing" the truth and not in winning your side of the argument here, I suggest you read about Hindu Rate of Growth, thanks to our bast*** Nehru and the reasons for it!

    [​IMG]

    Indian economy was worse than Bangladesh and Pakistan during that time of Socialist crap. Now that is what the present Socialist Crap Intellectuals want to take us, to be at a state lower than ----stan and Bangladesh:facepalm:

    As I said, most of the Socialists leave their brain in a refridgerator before becoming socialists. It is one of the pre-requistics for becoming one.

    For more info, here is the economic growth of India-before and after free-market reforms. While you are at it, read about your partners in Crime China too, as to how it reached its current position.

    :lol:British squandered away their resources with lot of socialist crap ideas! That was the reason for the EU economic crisis, and the austerity measures following it.. You have chosen a particularly bad time for supporting Socialism.

    And You are wrong, Capitalism is the best PROVEN way to increase efficiency of resource distribution and for creating wealth in the shortest period of time!
     
  14. jamesvaikom

    jamesvaikom Regular Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    We don't have enough natural resources needed for our population. We are net importers of commodities like oil, coal etc. Due to high population growth its becoming more and more difficult to mine natural resources from densely populated areas.

    We don't have enough raw materials to utilize our human resources effectively. Suppose both India and US have raw materials to make 1 lakh products. If those products can be made using 1000 workers or 100 workers and a machine then we will use 1000 workers and US will use 100 workers and a machine. As using 1 machine is cheaper than employing 900 workers, American companies can give more wages to their workers.

    In India unproductive or less productive people have more children than productive people. So they have strong vote bank. So Govt. if forced to create more useless jobs for them. Upper class people will get benefits from population growth as they can sell low quality products at high rates. The burden of high population growth is falling on middle class. They are facing problems like high taxation and inflation. Their problems will reduce only if population growth of illiterate and poor people reduce.

    According to me we should give importance to capitalism ( We can control corporates by cleaning up our bureaucracy). But Govt. should ensure that poor people are getting their basic needs. As I said in my previous post, Govt. should help poor by ensuring that they are getting benefits from Govt. spendings and not by imposing more burden to private companies and middle class.
     
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  15. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    Sigh. We have been down there before. We have plenty of resources. We dont need coal, we have adequate reserves. AND we have adequate nuclear energy generating raw materials. Population was and will never be a problem, unless we have economic in-efficiency because of Socialism- HInt- our population was much less than what it is now in 1980s and yet only now do the world consider us as a potential candidate for Super power status and an economic giant!

    And FYI, US imports its oil too ;)

    :dude: That is because US economy is very efficient , while ours is not, thanks to our Ungle Nehru's license raj!

    Understand this little explanation. A society with a population of 1000 will need 1 physicians, 1 nurse, 200 traders, 200 workers, 10 farmers ,10 soildiers- so on and so forth and will have a unemployed numbers at 40!(4%). Now a Population of 1000000000(India) will need 10000000 physicians , 1000000 nurses, 200000000 traders, 200000000 workers, 10000000 farmers and 10000000 soldiers and so on and so forth, with a corresponding un-employment of 4%, provided, same economic efficiency is maintained as in the case of 1000 people society. Now which of the two economies/society will be stronger?

    :dude:? Seriously? If we maintain our economic growth above 8% our middle class will explode from present 50million to 500 millions in just twenty years. For that we, need free market, to maximise the efficiency of the population we have That is not possible under socialism. And that is what I was saying in the first place!

    And Who told you we need 100% literacy for a fully efficient economy?

    Also do you know why the Indian economy as noted by you is so inefficient?

    I consider this point as an own goal against Socialist policies And I see that @HeinzGud liked this post, without knowing all of your points are actually against a socialist economy for India?:lol:

    "This getting the basic needs" thingy is exactly what I or any other person in the field of economics will call as Socialism. Problem is, People living in the streets have much more interest in preserving their life than any of us, arm chair economists will ever have. So I think it is best to leave them alone and they will come up in their life.

    And How exactly do you think govt can help poor without burdening the middle class?:rolleyes: Nothing in this world comes free. Some one is paying the fee for whatever some one else is getting for free!
     
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  16. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    It appears your Web browser is not configured to display PDF files. No worries, just click here to download the PDF file.

     
  17. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    ^^
    See article on page 19
     
  18. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    It’s all a matter of ceilings. (Mith Huang)

    President Obama will meet with congressional leaders this week in another attempt to avert the fiscal cliff — the automatic tax increases and spending cuts set to take effect Jan. 1 unless Congress can strike a deal. The cuts and tax hikes, which total more than $500 billion, are so large and so sudden that many economists fear they would plunge the country back into recession.

    As Washington tries to hash out a deal, we’ve taken a step back to break down the numbers behind our deficit — how it grew so big, why it is actually shrinking and whether a deal can bring it under control.

    How much are we in debt?

    The federal debt is just shy of $16.4 trillion at the moment, which also happens to be the debt limit that Congress set in 2011. Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner announced on Wednesday that the nation would hit the limit on Dec. 31. The Treasury can take some “extraordinary measures” to keep paying its bills for a few weeks, but it’ll run out of cash by February or March unless Congress raises the limit again.

    And that’s different from the deficit, right?

    Yes. The debt is the total amount of the government’s outstanding obligations. The deficit is how much the government is in the red in a given year. In the 2012 fiscal year, which ended Sept. 30, the deficit amounted to $1.1 trillion.

    That seems like a huge number. How did the deficit get so big?

    The 2012 deficit was actually the smallest one since 2008. But it’s still a giant shortfall.

    As Binyamin Appelbaum noted in The New York Times, the federal government has run a deficit in 45 of the last 50 years. (The exceptions were 1969 and 1998 through 2001.) The financial crisis in 2008, however, caused the deficit to skyrocket, as tax revenues fell because of the slump in incomes and production, and government spending on the stimulus and safety net measures such as unemployment insurance shot up. The deficit for the 2008 fiscal year was $455 billion. In 2009, it surged to more than $1.4 trillion.

    Since then, the deficit has been falling, albeit very slowly. The government took in 6.4 percent more in taxes in 2012 than in 2011, as the economy improved a bit and several tax breaks expired. And it spent less on Medicaid, unemployment insurance and the continuing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    What about the total debt? How much of that is President Obama’s fault?

    The debt has grown by nearly $6 trillion since Obama took office, from $10.5 trillion to $16.4 trillion.

    Figuring out how much of that is due to Obama is tougher. The Washington Post’s Ezra Klein, working with the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, calculated in January that the legislation Obama had actually signed — as opposed to factors like the economy — had added about $983 billion to the debt.

    Klein has also rounded up several charts that break down exactly what’s caused our debt to grow so large. The biggest single factor has been the weak economy; President George W. Bush’s tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also fueled the debt buildup, as did President Obama’s stimulus.

    Have debt levels ever been this high before?

    Yes, proportionally. Economists like to talk about a country’s debt in relation to its gross domestic product (a measure of the economy’s total annual output). And instead of using a country’s total outstanding debt to calculate this debt-to-GDP ratio, economists typically use the amount of debt held by the public. (Somewhat confusingly, the federal government holds about $5 trillion in obligations to itself, most of which is money owed to the funds that support Social Security and other programs.)

    Using this measurement, our debt was about 67.7 percent of GDP last year. As this chart compiled by Quartz’s Ritchie King shows, that’s the highest our debt-to-GDP ratio has been since the 1940s, when the need to finance World War II caused the debt to surge to 112.7 percent of GDP. But the economy grew fast enough after the war that the debt soon became a much smaller percentage of the country’s GDP.

    It’s worth noting that a number of other developed countries have higher debt-to-GDP ratios than the U.S. Germany’s public debt is 80.6 percent of GDP, and Canada’s is 87.4 percent. The euro zone’s most troubled countries fare even worse: Italy’s debt is 120.1 percent of GDP; Greece’s is 165.3 percent.

    At least we’re not Greece. How much longer can we keep borrowing?




    That’s a tough one. Some commentators — including Paul Krugman, the Nobel-winning economist and columnist for The New York Times — have argued that our current deficits are mostly a product of the sluggish economy. The deficit, Krugman wrote last week, “is a side-effect of an economic depression, and the first order of business should be to end that depression — which means, among other things, leaving the deficit alone for now.”

    Other economists — including Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff, who studied eight centuries’ worth of financial crises for their book “This Time Is Different” — argue that countries with debt-to-GDP ratios above a certain level tend to experience slower economic growth. Reinhart and Rogoff suggest the level is around 90 percent of GDP — which the U.S. is rapidly approaching. A recent Congressional Research Service reportconcluded that while the debt-to-GDP ratio can’t keep rising forever, “it can rise for a time.” The report continued:


    It is hard to predict at what point bond holders would deem it to be unsustainable. A few other advanced economies have debt-to-GDP ratios higher than that of the United States. Some of those countries in Europe have recently seen their financing costs rise to the point that they are unable to finance their deficits solely through private markets. But Japan has the highest debt-to-GDP ratio of any advanced economy, and it has continued to be able to finance its debt at extremely low costs.

    How does all this fit into the fiscal cliff? Would a deal to avert it fix our debt problem?

    Actually, going over the fiscal cliff would almost singlehandedly erase the deficit. Tax rates would shoot up, and the fiscal cliff’s indiscriminate budget cuts would slash military and safety-net spending alike.

    The problem is that all those tax increases and spending cuts would likely throw the economy back into a recession, causing the deficit to balloon again. “The economy will, I think, go off a cliff,” said Ben Bernanke, the Federal Reserve chairman.

    (For more detail, see The Washington Post’s exhaustive fiscal cliff explainer.)

    What the two sides are trying to do is identify cuts that are ultimately deep enough to bring down the deficit — and thus, eventually, the debt — without stalling the economy. But negotiations collapsed last week after John Boehner, the Republican House speaker, tried and failed to pass a “Plan B” alternative to the president’s proposal in the House. Obama is set to meet with congressional leaders today to try to strike a deal to block at least some of the cliff’s impact by Monday night. But its prospects seem dim.

    “I have to be very honest,” Sen. Harry Reid, the majority leader, said on Thursday. “I don’t know timewise how it can happen now.”

    Of course, some analysts have pointed out that people on both the Republican and the Democratic sides may actually want to move the cliff just slightly down the road into the next Congress, which convenes Thursday, Jan. 3. The advantages: Boehner can be safely re-elected as Speaker before he has to do serious twisting of arms of fellow GOP House members to get their votes for any compromise plan. And there will be a few more Democrats in the House and the Senate for the White House to rely on in enlisting the votes it needs to ratify any such deal. The disadvantage: Delay makes the risk of miscalculation greater for either or both sides — and for the public.
     
  19. SPIEZ

    SPIEZ Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    I believe health care is the most expensive in the US of A.
     
  20. jamesvaikom

    jamesvaikom Regular Member

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    Re: The scariest docu on the post-industrial American economy you will

    'India's coal reserves may exhaust by 2040'
    We don't have enough coal reserves. We started importing coal. Indian companies like Coal India, Reliance power, Adani power, Tata power etc. are investing huge money in coal mines abroad. Due to high population growth its becoming more and more difficult to mine coal. US and China can mine almost all their coal reserves because its easy for them to provide resettlement for people living near coal mines. But that's not possible in India due to high population density.

    What is the use of having raw materials if illiterate and poor people won't let us construct nuclear power plants? Construction of nuclear power plants are delayed because they have to get approvals from many departments before starting any small process. Due to anti-nuclear protests approvals and safety measures required are increasing. If this trend continues then nuclear power will become uneconomical.

    India is a democratic country. People will decide whether they want socialism or capitalism. Illiterate and poor people thinks that socialism is good for them. Govt. can't give importance to capitalism as long as population of illiterate and poor people increases.

    Now people have less children than during 1980s. So now more people are able to spend more money for education of their children.

    US is a super power. If we take debt then we have to repay them in future. Monarchs in Middle East countries don't have guts to ask US to repay their debts.
     
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