The Real Reason Russia is Warming Up to Pakistan

[Mad Indian]

Well if Vietnam did not give them a bloody nose then why do these people remain so pissed off with Viets.

yeah in your dreams. Viets are doing continuous Naval exercises with USA today, because they have moved on and they realise that their and US goals are aligned today. I suggest the same to Indians - move on. Get over your Nostalgia for USSR.

 

[Yumdoot]

yeah in your dreams. Viets are doing continuous Naval exercises with USA today, because they have moved on and they realise that their and US goals are aligned today. I suggest the same to Indians - move on. Get over your Nostalgia for USSR.

Viets are doing right, for them. I don't advise them anything other then what they already are doing.

But there is a size difference between Viets and India. What is good for Viets need not necessarily be so for India. Our cultural milieu is different too.

 

[Abhijat]

@Yumdoot , Sir , I think it was misunderstanding and not some left/right thing.

 

[Mad Indian]

But there is a size difference between Viets and India. What is good for Viets need not necessarily be so for India. Our cultural milieu is different too.

Look if someone who fought a war like Viets can get over their coldwar nostalgia, we can too. We should not be screwing with National security and interests just to piss off USA

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

But I gave you options. Not premise.

I could argue out easily even the one you chose. But looks like you have had enough of that conquest.




Several points taken serially:

Well if Vietnam did not give them a bloody nose then why do these people remain so pissed off with Viets.

And how are you so sure of US helping us out with China containment. If containing China was the prime motive then why did they get themselves so intertwined with the Chinese. It makes little sense to finance a mercantilist Chinese currency policy and then complain that the chinese have grown too much. India's China policy cannot remain beholden to American wishes and whims. Tomorrow the Americans will again change places. Who cares for their support.

Again to repeat I did not give you options from merely the small puny sized countries. I gave you examples from among peer group with both sides occupying the either side of a continum. You can compare India with Russians or even Americans. But are not puny by any standard. That example was there for your ease too.

Do you even understand the BS you are writing on this thread. I will try to explain one last time.

1) I said- US would help India contain China (unlike Russia who just sold themselves on SCO)
2) You said- does not matter because in Indo-China rivalry India is small like Pak in Indo-Pak rivalry
3) I just said don't equate India with Pak, because we are big enough to tackle China on our own
4) You said India kicked Pak's ass even though US was guarding their ass, so US backing does not help

Now that is a stupid logic that since US could not help Pak, they cannot help India. Actually your whole argument does not make sense because India is not Pak in Indo-China rivalry. India can stand by itself against China. If it were otherwise, China has enough balls to not worry about international opinion and grab Ladakh and Arunachal.

Where do I stand now? India is better if US wants to help us contain China. Do we really need US help to contain China? No. Is US help beneficial for us to contain China? Yes. Do we have to contain China? May be/May be not, we cannot be dictated by US if we are big enough economic powerhouse.

Finally to the question. Who would you choose Russia or US? Who is more likely to help India get ahead? A country which is itself bogged down and same size as India or a country whose economy is better and 10 times of India. Feel free to make your choice.

Arre bhai, every single Indian also loves Sunny Leone but that does not mean people will bring Sunny Leone into their homes.

True we buy a lot of mobiles but our people buy it only because lines of communication non-mobile times required migrants to travel. Mobiles have cut down the communication times and efforts. It is the savings in time and effort that is required and wished for and not US slavery. As you presume.

Besides even the Russians use mobiles and technology then why cannot the Americans love the Russians

Are you sure being on the same page for the time being on technology constitutes some alignment necessity.

Ok good night for today.

You may or may not want to live in US. But the question was to choose between Russia and US. But you went on a trajectory, India is my country and I love it so much that I will live here. Man do whatever makes you happy, but at least answer simple 2 choice question.

@Abhijat - hope you got your answer as well.

 

[Mad Indian]

Where do I stand now? India is better if US wants to help us contain China. Do we really need US help to contain China? No. Is US help beneficial for us to contain China? Yes. Do we have to contain China? May be/May be not, we cannot be dictated by US if we are big enough economic powerhouse.

Finally to the question. Who would you choose Russia or US? Who is more likely to help India get ahead? A country which is itself bogged down and same size as India or a country whose economy is better and 10 times of India. Feel free to make your choice.

Lets analyse further facts- If India is strongly aligned with USA for now,( and I think there is huge potential for that specially if we have Repubs in power there), in times of need, say a war with China, we can count the US help. Can we say the same about Rus even if we align with them?

As @Sylex21 correctly pointed out, US is one of the very few contries in the world which will actually go to war in defence of its allies. I doubt if even India would go to war with China over Nepal or Bhutan, but US would, if Nepal or Bhutan was as strongly in US orbit as Nepal and Bhutan are in Indian. Can Rus do the same?

hell when the Russian fanboys talk about how USA ditched Pak, they conviniently forget that US dint ditch Pakis before the Porkis betrayed them . US was ready to Bomb India during 71 war to help Pak. Is that not a sign of a good ally? US ditched Pak after the 90s, because it became aware of what Pakis are. So its unfair to bring in US/Pak relations as a comparison here. If you want to compare the relations- compare that of the US with its actual allies like Japan, Aus, UK, or western hemisphere. I want the russian fanboys here to name one country among these which has been ditched by USA at its time of need. One would do!


Skepticism is fine, paranoia is not.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Lets analyse further facts- an India, strongly aligned with USA for now, and I think there is huge potential for that specially if we have Repubs in power there, In times of need, say a war with China, we can count the US help. Can we do say the same about Rus even if we align with them?

As @Sylex21 correctly pointed out, US is one of the very few contries in the world which will actually go to war in defence of its allies. I doubt even if India would go to war with China over Nepal or Bhutan, but US would, if Nepal or Bhutan was as strongly in US orbit as Nepal and Bhutan are in Indian. Can Rus do the same?

hell when the Russian fanboys talk about how USA ditched Pak, they conviniently forget that US dint ditch Pakis before the Porkis betrayed them . US was ready to Bomb India during 71 war to help Pak. Is that not a sign of a good ally? US ditched Pak after the 90s, because of it became aware of what Pakis are. So its unfair to bring in US/Pak relations as a comparison here. If you want to compare the relations- compare that of the US with its actual allies like Japan, Aus, UK, or western hemisphere. I want the russian fanboys here to name one country among these which has been ditched by USA at its time of need. One would do!


Skepticism is fine, paranoia is not.

I am sick of both Russian and US ass-lickers to be precise. Sadly, people like these also sit in the high echelons of power and form our policies. How difficult is it to follow what is best for India!!

 

[pmaitra]

History proves that the US uses regimes and dictators to further their own goals and then spits them out when their use is no more.

It is mind boggling to see that some people still believe in the pipe dream that the US will help India contain PRC.

People who don't learn form history are bound to repeat others' mistakes.

 

[Mad Indian]

Anybody who knows history knows that Russia and SU invades countries they dont like and annexes them, crimea, Afghan, Finland, poland, eastern europe, east germany etc etc and etc. So it is retarded that the Russian fanboys want to have friendship with them,

And thats how you write an equally BS post filled with non sequitors and fallacies

@Sakal Gharelu Ustad Look how brilliant our hypocrite is?

 

[Yumdoot]

Do you even understand the BS you are writing on this thread. I will try to explain one last time.


1) I said- US would help India contain China (unlike Russia who just sold themselves on SCO)

2) You said- does not matter because in Indo-China rivalry India is small like Pak in Indo-Pak rivalry

3) I just said don't equate India with Pak, because we are big enough to tackle China on our own

4) You said India kicked Pak's ass even though US was guarding their ass, so US backing does not help

‘One last time’! Oh my god. Look here Bianca Castafiore, I don’t want to sound rude, but if you think you are too big and important for all this, then feel free to stay at home and among friends.

Again for me what is interesting that you would want to ignore 3 more examples I held out and took up this one.

But seriously you are again cooking things inside your head. For example I never said this:

2) You said- does not matter because in Indo-China rivalry India is small like Pak in Indo-Pak rivalry"

In fact India-China rivalry is the only real rivalry in this world. Rest all are the ‘phoney wars’ that precede the real wars. The kind of war where small countries (sidekicks) are attacked to get back at what is installed as the ‘other’. On top of that these Americans do not have the staying power even in things that they think they are masters of. How will such a vacillating characterless country ever help anybody!

Aman ki Asha styled dog and pony show, with a country like US, that changes its intel assessment every Soap Season . Sorry but this rivalry, the Indo-China one, is not for them. They are destined to be the collateral damage in this . But what is surprising is that some people are always willing to go in for Aman ki Asha even if they have been shafted good. Were not these Americans, in fact, the people who betrayed Tibetans in 62. India in 65. Both were neutrals towards Americans. But what can you expect from a country standing on another man’s land.

Even among friends, the Brits who gave them the jet engines were betrayed when it came to Brit TN weapons. Pakis whom their strategic community discussed ad-nauseam since 1947, today feel betrayed. Chinese feel betrayed after just 10 years of MFN statuses. They betrayed the Germans and Japanese with the Gilpatric committee. West-Ukrainians Baptists and Catholics by 2014. Even the one Wahabis they cultivated till 88 they betrayed and within 10 more years the Wahabis had given them the Wahabi reply for that with the biggest Terror hit ever.

If after this history you still believe Americans are the ones to be trusted with a good fight, then please be my guest. You go and fight the Chinese with American help, my good wishes are with you.

Now that is a stupid logic that since US could not help Pak, they cannot help India. Actually your whole argument does not make sense because India is not Pak in Indo-China rivalry. India can stand by itself against China. If it were otherwise, China has enough balls to not worry about international opinion and grab Ladakh and Arunachal.

Where do I stand now? India is better if US wants to help us contain China. Do we really need US help to contain China? No. Is US help beneficial for us to contain China? Yes. Do we have to contain China? May be/May be not, we cannot be dictated by US if we are big enough economic powerhouse.

Look you are contradicting yourself.

You pose the question if we need US help to contain China. Then you answer No. Then you again say US will help India contain China.

Finally to the question. Who would you choose Russia or US? Who is more likely to help India get ahead? A country which is itself bogged down and same size as India or a country whose economy is better and 10 times of India. Feel free to make your choice.


You may or may not want to live in US. But the question was to choose between Russia and US. But you went on a trajectory, India is my country and I love it so much that I will live here. Man do whatever makes you happy, but at least answer simple 2 choice question.

See the question of choosing between Russia and US can occur only to a sell out. I chose India. How is that an invalid answer, merely because you cannot make up your mind and want the rest of the world to help you do that.

As an Indian I find Russian weapons are better since they are based on frugal engineering which makes things affordable for us. Allows our soldiers more bangs for the limited bucks the country provides them with. A commercial call.

As an Indian I find US better for absorbing our excess man power. If this excess manpower is allowed to remain in India, it can only hurt our collective survival chances. By sending off people to US and West we in fact turn our entitled fellows to useful fellows for both countries. Kind of way a good girl helping two households – before marriage and after. But this is something that is entirely natural. They needed some of our people and we did not. We needed some of their money and they did not need that money. Again A commercial call.

But somehow you either want me to feel indebted for this or you believe that US will give you something more.

How exactly will US help us? Will the US, in its magnanimity, allow us to pay for the Iranian Oil we have already consumed?

You had held put the high technology help in buying mobile phones. Is that how US will help Indian economy? Importing mobile phones, really!

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

‘One last time’! Oh my god. Look here Bianca Castafiore, I don’t want to sound rude, but if you think you are too big and important for all this, then feel free to stay at home and among friends.

Again for me what is interesting that you would want to ignore 3 more examples I held out and took up this one.

But seriously you are again cooking things inside your head. For example I never said this:


In fact India-China rivalry is the only real rivalry in this world. Rest all are the ‘phoney wars’ that precede the real wars. The kind of war where small countries (sidekicks) are attacked to get back at what is installed as the ‘other’. On top of that these Americans do not have the staying power even in things that they think they are masters of. How will such a vacillating characterless country ever help anybody!

Aman ki Asha styled dog and pony show, with a country like US, that changes its intel assessment every Soap Season . Sorry but this rivalry, the Indo-China one, is not for them. They are destined to be the collateral damage in this . But what is surprising is that some people are always willing to go in for Aman ki Asha even if they have been shafted good. Were not these Americans, in fact, the people who betrayed Tibetans in 62. India in 65. Both were neutrals towards Americans. But what can you expect from a country standing on another man’s land.

Even among friends, the Brits who gave them the jet engines were betrayed when it came to Brit TN weapons. Pakis whom their strategic community discussed ad-nauseam since 1947, today feel betrayed. Chinese feel betrayed after just 10 years of MFN statuses. They betrayed the Germans and Japanese with the Gilpatric committee. West-Ukrainians Baptists and Catholics by 2014. Even the one Wahabis they cultivated till 88 they betrayed and within 10 more years the Wahabis had given them the Wahabi reply for that with the biggest Terror hit ever.

If after this history you still believe Americans are the ones to be trusted with a good fight, then please be my guest. You go and fight the Chinese with American help, my good wishes are with you.






Look you are contradicting yourself.

You pose the question if we need US help to contain China. Then you answer No. Then you again say US will help India contain China.





See the question of choosing between Russia and US can occur only to a sell out. I chose India. How is that an invalid answer, merely because you cannot make up your mind and want the rest of the world to help you do that.

As an Indian I find Russian weapons are better since they are based on frugal engineering which makes things affordable for us. Allows our soldiers more bangs for the limited bucks the country provides them with. A commercial call.

As an Indian I find US better for absorbing our excess man power. If this excess manpower is allowed to remain in India, it can only hurt our collective survival chances. By sending off people to US and West we in fact turn our entitled fellows to useful fellows for both countries. Kind of way a good girl helping two households – before marriage and after. But this is something that is entirely natural. They needed some of our people and we did not. We needed some of their money and they did not need that money. Again A commercial call.

But somehow you either want me to feel indebted for this or you believe that US will give you something more.

How exactly will US help us? Will the US, in its magnanimity, allow us to pay for the Iranian Oil we have already consumed?

You had held put the high technology help in buying mobile phones. Is that how US will help Indian economy? Importing mobile phones, really!

Dude, I don't want to sound too important but you are acting naive and stupid in your post.

I did not contradict myself but you probably cannot comprehend english!! I will give you some numbers to understand-

Say on power scale India is 100 and China 110. The war is almost a stalemate. Now, US is not needed. But say US wants to help India and you say why not because that increases your power a little bit to say 104. Not a huge change but still marginal improvement. So, any sane nation would be happy to take whatever benefit it can out of US.

And the question about sell-out!!! Really! You really need to be a bit more confident and less scared.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Anybody who knows history knows that Russia and SU invades countries they dont like and annexes them, crimea, Afghan, Finland, poland, eastern europe, east germany etc etc and etc. So it is retarded that the Russian fanboys want to have friendship with them,

And thats how you write an equally BS post filled with non sequitors and fallacies

@Sakal Gharelu Ustad Look how brilliant our hypocrite is?

How dare you quote Afghanistan? Afghan puppet ruler installed by USSR invited USSR to come and screw their country!! So there was no invasion!

 

[Yumdoot]

The history of Afghanistan is yet to be written. Let us just wait some more time.

Currently both the Russians and Pakis (traditionally on opposite sides) are cooperating with Americans on Afghanistan.

Future will tell us what the American role was in Afghanistan.

 

[Mad Indian]

ven among friends, the Brits who gave them the jet engines were betrayed when it came to Brit TN weapons. Pakis whom their strategic community discussed ad-nauseam since 1947, today feel betrayed. Chinese feel betrayed after just 10 years of MFN statuses. They betrayed the Germans and Japanese with the Gilpatric committee.

In that case, Russia has betrayed Poland, Afghans, Ukraine, Belorus, CAS, and most importantly - India by milking our defence sector and a lot more countries. Seriously, grow up and get over this cold war nostalgia already.

 

[Mad Indian]

The history of Afghanistan is yet to be written. Let us just wait some more time.

Currently both the Russians and Pakis (traditionally on opposite sides) are cooperating with Americans on Afghanistan.

Future will tell us what the American role was in Afghanistan.

As I already said, you are just the Russian version of the US lapdogs here. We were pointing out what Russia did in Afghan and not what USA did. Stop giving bs excuses to excuse Russian behavior there

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Nope he's just trying to make deals as much as he can without upsetting india.

You are correct. If Russia looses Indian support it will be bad and vise versa..... So both the countries are good when they are together......

 

[Yumdoot]

In that case, Russia has betrayed Poland, Afghans, Ukraine, Belorus, CAS, and most importantly - India by milking our defence sector and a lot more countries. Seriously, grow up and get over this cold war nostalgia already.

Sorry, seemed to have missed this message for me.

But then Poland, Ukraine, Belarus are definitely Slavs. And just the way we Indian have responsibility as well as rights towards/over, SAARC countries (which are nothing but old Akhand Bharat) the Russians too have the same relationship with these countries.

Afghan history is yet to be written, as I said earlier. Let us ask the Afghans directly if they like it the way it is today - which is in no small part due to Americans and Pakis.

CAR (you mean) is border region to both old power of Akhand Bharat and new Russian power. They already know too well to balance things around their homeland. Had it not been for the Russians the CAR would have been balkanized/syriafied, several times over.

India - how did the Russians betray India? This one point alone is On Topic. So please elaborate.

And you can get over your US chamchagiri yourself, first. I did not used to track the cold war unlike you who tracks US day in and day out. So I cannot have any nostalgia for that period.

 

[nirranj]

If access to Indian Ocean is the only concern then I would say we have not made efforts to sell Chabahar port and the delaram-zaranj highway.

Its now that we must act and act decisively. Since Iran and russia are already cooperating on syria, we should push for a artic-Indian ocean connectivity by proposing, funding and building a freight line along with a express way from Iran's caspian ports to Chabahar. It should be noted that the Russians have a well developed inland waterway network that connects white and baltic seas in the north with the black and caspian seas in the south.

We need to convince the Russians that Iran is a much better route to connect with Indian Ocean than the Pakistan route they may have in their mind.

 

[Mad Indian]

Sorry, seemed to have missed this message for me.

But then Poland, Ukraine, Belarus are definitely Slavs. And just the way we Indian have responsibility as well as rights towards/over, SAARC countries (which are nothing but old Akhand Bharat) the Russians too have the same relationship with these countries.

Afghan history is yet to be written, as I said earlier. Let us ask the Afghans directly if they like it the way it is today - which is in no small part due to Americans and Pakis.

CAR (you mean) is border region to both old power of Akhand Bharat and new Russian power. They already know too well to balance things around their homeland. Had it not been for the Russians the CAR would have been balkanized/syriafied, several times over.

I was just making a point about rusiian imperialism Vis a VIs USA. You pathetic attempts to white wash their crimes can only be outdone by their own citizens. You people are so into being Russian chamchas, that you are more Russian than Russians themselves.

As I already said, you seem to be the inverse copy of people like Zebra who are more American than Americans in their chamchagiri.

And you can get over your US chamchagiri yourself, first. I did not used to track the cold war unlike you who tracks US day in and day out. So I cannot have any nostalgia for that period.

Where did I say India should be a USA Chamcha? I said India should get the best of the both worlds and should remain neutral. It is you who is suggesting India to be a Russian chamcha without any shame. Figure out if you are Indian or american first

India - how did the Russians betray India? This one point alone is On Topic. So please elaborate.

Milking us for every penny for their ammunitions after bribing our officials doesn't count? Oh I know your answer, if Americans do it, it is betrayal. But if Russians do it, it is our fault.

 

[pmaitra]

Dude, I don't want to sound too important but you are acting naive and stupid in your post.

Another person's stupidity is in the eyes of the beholder.

I did not contradict myself but you probably cannot comprehend english!! I will give you some numbers to understand-

Say on power scale India is 100 and China 110. The war is almost a stalemate. Now, US is not needed. But say US wants to help India and you say why not because that increases your power a little bit to say 104. Not a huge change but still marginal improvement. So, any sane nation would be happy to take whatever benefit it can out of US.

And the question about sell-out!!! Really! You really need to be a bit more confident and less scared.

After the US refusal to help us in 1962 and on top of that, stopping us from using air power, I am not so optimistic.

What you are saying is your personal opinion, and a hypothesis. This hypothesis is untested. The only way to validate it (without actually going to war with PRC), is to look at the past. Once we do that, we know this hypothesis is more likely to be proven false.

Now, if you are tempted to call it living nostalgia, let me remind you, this is not nostalgia, this is learning from history and not repeating the mistakes of others.

I agree that India needs to be less scared, and thus, India needs to stop pretending as if Uncle Sam is going to fight India's wars. It won't. It is more interested in selling weapons than anything else.

I am not too worried though. At least. Modi is not living under an illusion (certainly not after what happened in Ukraine). He is tightening the screws on NGOs, including Ford Foundation. That is a good sign.

Anybody who knows history knows that Russia and SU invades countries they dont like and annexes them, crimea, Afghan, Finland, poland, eastern europe, east germany etc etc and etc. So it is retarded that the Russian fanboys want to have friendship with them,

And thats how you write an equally BS post filled with non sequitors and fallacies

@Sakal Gharelu Ustad Look how brilliant our hypocrite is?

• Crimea: Vote of accession. Just like Sikkim. Crimea has been part of Russia longer than Sikkim has been part of India.
• Afghanistan: Was never invaded by the USSR.
• Finland: Was part of Russia, and was given freedom without bloodshed. They should have reciprocated in peace, but they reciprocated in violence against their own pro-Russia population and started exporting anti-Bolsheviks. Got hammered by Stalin. Well deserved I say. Someone who has "read history" should be expected to know.
• Poland: Never annexed. Part of Warsaw Pact. Vassal at best. They are still vassals.
• Eastern Europe: Never annexed. Part of Warsaw Pact. Vassal at best. They are still vassals.
• East Germany: Never annexed. Part of Warsaw Pact. Vassal at best. They are still vassals.
• Alleged Betrayal: Most of Eastern Europe had factories built with the help of the USSR. These countries produced Soviet weapons, never paid a penny in royalty. Yet, these countries happily sold weapons to CIA which were sent to Afghan Mujahideen, and have in turn ended up in India, as we see from weapons captured from the Pakistani terrorists. Weapons is just one example. The largest steel mill in Eastern Europe was in Poland, again, built by the Soviets.

P.S.: Of course I am brilliant. I did not have an easy way up my life, aided by the socialist policies of the government. I actually had to study hard. (Just saving you the trouble by bringing up what you were going to bring up anyway.)

How dare you quote Afghanistan? Afghan puppet ruler installed by USSR invited USSR to come and screw their country!! So there was no invasion!

That's right. USSR was invited, so there was no invasion. (Just like USSR was neutral in 1965, so we cannot blame them for seeking restoration of status quo ante, as is the norm, but you might as well disagree.)

Afghan government invited the USSR as Kabul was under siege and road leading to Kabul were under threat. The USSR was invited 11 times, and on the 12th time, the USSR sent its forces.

In any event, from Indian PoV Afghanistan was better off as a Soviet puppet than as a US/Saudi/Pakistani puppet.