The Myth of American Exceptionalism

Discussion in 'Americas' started by ejazr, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. SADAKHUSH

    SADAKHUSH Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,835
    Likes Received:
    772
    Location:
    Winterland

    If I may add one point to what you have stated.

    USA initially went via Pakistan to stop spread of communism and after three decades their ally(Pakistan) is sitting in the laps of one of the biggest communist thugs. Can someone from USA state department explain what was achieved in Afghanistan after all.
     
  2. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    Talking to a South Korean today makes no sense. I am talking about 5 decades back.

    At the beginning of the Cold War, the US government assumed that all communists, regardless of nationality, were controlled or directly influenced by Moscow; thus the US portrayed the civil war in Korea as a Soviet hegemonic maneuver. So it was a civil war after all, better resolved between the two parties themselves. But the big powers had other plans, and hence they divided Korea for their own agendas. Kim Jung or no Kim Jung, most Koreans still dream of reunification, and Kim Jung is not an immortal.

    About Afghanistan, read my comments above.
     
  3. SPIEZ

    SPIEZ Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,509
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    LOL! that's yet to happen
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
  4. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    14,141
    Likes Received:
    8,565
    Location:
    North Carolina, USA
    Fair enough. :)


    The Korean War began when KN overran the South and the US responded, taking heavy casualties in the beginning (Task Force Smith). Was the US not to respond to communist aggression and mass murder?

    That doesn't seem right, and it's incredibly simplified. A separate discussion is needed. If all Vietnamese loved Ho Chi Min so much, why the exodus after the fall of the South?

    20/20 hindsight. Russia was the OPFOR in 1979. Terrorist bases there in after 2001 needed to be dealt with using more than cruise missiles.

    It remains to be seen how Iraq evolves from here. The story is not complete and Iraq is better of with the mass murderer Saddam removed.

    The US did not, and will not remove Pakistan as a threat to India, in my humble opinion. If that pisses off the Indians, so be it.

    Does everybody in KS want US to leave? Does Iraq want Saddam resurrected?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
  5. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    14,141
    Likes Received:
    8,565
    Location:
    North Carolina, USA
    Hillary doesn't have to explain anything to anybody. You should know that by now.:lol:
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
  6. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    14,141
    Likes Received:
    8,565
    Location:
    North Carolina, USA
    KS would have been overrun after the "resolution between the two parties."
    KN mediation methods are artillery, PPSH and bayonet.
     
  7. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733
    For a frequest poster of this forum I find your above views extremely naive. No offence.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
  8. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733

    You better examine all angles of the ops mate. You do not invade a country without allies from inside: rule # 1. Pakis were have to be involved for obvious reasons. Look at the mess they can make when totally decoupled. Always remember to keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
     
  9. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733

    Please review your history. Pakistan would not have been at the center of American South Asian policy had Nehru not been too naive to spurne direct US overtures. What would US do if India does not seem to want it to as an ally? Note that US needed a presence in South Asia to hedge agianst the USSR.
     
  10. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733

    If that's the case then why put all the blame on the Americans? In case you forgot it was the NKs who lunched an invasion against the South. And in case you also forgot the NKs were trained, funded, supported (if not controlled) by the USSR (an outside power and that time the US' arch nemesis). What do you expect the US would have done in that situation? And for the sake of a sporting academic discourse, if India was in US' shoes, how would you want it to react?
     
  11. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    Read my earlier comments, I have stated that all the powers involved had their own agendas along with the US in the Korea war. I am not blaming the US alone in this case. It all comes down to one simple thing, that all these powerful external forces decided the fate of the country, and not the people themselves. Whether the North attacked the South, or vice versa, whatever business the US had with them ? It was a civil war. But for US, China and USSR, It was a fight between two ideologies: communism and capitalism after all, and all these countries were just pawns for the powers that be and they used them as they felt appropriate, not appropriate from the point of view of the local people.

    India never had such great power ambitions by forcing their will upon others. We have been a gentle power since the past 2000 years before 20th century. Read up on the trade and cultural ties we had with West Asia and East Asia.
     
    aditya10r likes this.
  12. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733
    I don't think the Koreans deserves such low regard. You talk as if they're incapable of self-thought, of acting in pursuit of their thoughts. I will assure you my friend that the Koreans decided their fates 60 yrs ago just like how they're deciding their fates now. Kim Il Sung consciously decided to invade SK on June 25, 1950 and Stalin did not think for him. (Although Stalin bloated Kim's ego just enough to think that he can take on the SK and US, and he was almost right).
     
  13. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    Yeah, they would have. But it was a civil war between the North and the South. I still feel the US and other powers had no business there. Read my previous comments, I have stated that the real war was between Communism and Capitalism, and all these countries were used by the powers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
  14. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    I am not disrespecting the Koreans here. You interpreted me wrong. I am saying that what the Koreans thought and desired was of no relevance to the great powers and they muzzled their opinions and brain washed them to side with them (I mean the North by Communists and the South by the US and allies), just as you stated that Stalin boasted Kim's ego.
     
  15. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733

    Interesting. :rolleyes:

    Is the US still doing mass hypnotism? They seemed very successful in hypnotising the SKs to pick up arms and shoot their Northern brothers. How about Russia? Did it inherit USSR's mass hypnotism know how? They were so effective against the NOKORs. Those poor controlled people even died in the hundred of thousands...:rofl:
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
  16. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    I never said that in the literal sense. Or maybe I used the wrong word. What I wanted to convey was that the US and the Soviets propped up NK and SK and took advantage of the conflicts between them to serve their own interest.

    And I would say that again, that I feel the greater powers had no business in deciding the fate of the Koreans. They are intelligent, industrious, and self respecting people who should have been left to choose their own destiny.
     
  17. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733
    Can I edit your post?

    "And I would say that again, that I feel the great powers had no business in deciding the fate of the Koreans. They are industrious, and self-respecting people who should have been left to choose their own destiny."

    (I only deleted "intelligent") :thumb:
     
  18. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733
    Seriously, the reality of international relations is more nuanced than the simplistic view that the Americans (and other powers) are playing dice with the lives of other people. Those people or states will not act if they don't see their actions meeting their own interests. Nobody works for the sake of America or the USSR. When the first Kim allowed the Soviets in their territory and closely allied with them he had the "intelligent" view that it was in his (okay, his country's) interest. The USSR was his best bet of countering the almost certain intervention of the Americans in favor of the SOKORs. The same was the mentality of the people in the South of the demarcation. You could even make an argument that the NOKORs and the SOKORs exploited the Cold War enmity of the Americans and the Soviets to advance/protect their own interests. (Poor hapless young American GIs and Soviet pilots who died in that war. They have to die because their respective governments were duped by the SOKORs and NOKORs into sending them thousands of miles to die for other people's war.)
     
    sandeepdg and W.G.Ewald like this.
  19. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,333
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    Gurgaon/Noida
    I can keep bringing counter points to what you just said, but I think we better cut it here.

    Well, that's the price you pay for being a super power. Thank God we don't have such responsibilities.

    By the way, what's wrong with "intelligent" Koreans ? :confused:
     
  20. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    9,997
    Likes Received:
    4,733
    You didn't make them sound intelligent in your earlier comments, with being merely US and Soviet remote controlled bots. You made it appear they don't have minds of their own. :laugh:
     

Share This Page