The Great Challenge: China, Russia

[JBH22]

 

[pmaitra]

@JBH22, It's a long video. Could you please give a summary?

 

[JBH22]

@JBH22, It's a long video. Could you please give a summary?

Worth watch

Gives a fairly good account on how USA is trying to hold on to its hegemony which is now challenged by China & Russia

Emphasis laid on natural resources (OIL)

 

[pmaitra]

Worth watch

Gives a fairly good account on how USA is trying to hold on to its hegemony which is now challenged by China & Russia

Emphasis laid on natural resources (OIL)

Ok, I will watch later tonight. Thanks for the summary.

 

[asianobserve]

Putin is in denial if he thinks China will deal with Russia on an equal footing. Things have changed dramatically in their relations since the USSR days. China has the upward momentum while Russia has the opposite. So Russia will not submit to being secondary to the West but will submit to China?

 

[pmaitra]

Neil Fergusson, a professor of history, is incredibly honest, considering he is from the rubber-stamp university called Harvard.

Excellent video @JBH22.

I recommend this to others as well: @Known_Unknown, @Razor, @happy, @Samar Rathi, @Ray Sir, @tarunraju, et al..

 

[JBH22]

Putin is in denial if he thinks China will deal with Russia on an equal footing. Things have changed dramatically in their relations since the USSR days. China has the upward momentum while Russia has the opposite. So Russia will not submit to being secondary to the West but will submit to China?

Russia has always been the underdog that trashes its opponents when the need arises

Read history books might help. Russia as a whole is the only nation that can challenge USA is sphere of energy, military technology. Hell even chinese are lagging behind to build a decent aircraft engine.

 

[no smoking]

So Russia will not submit to being secondary to the West but will submit to China?

No, Russia was willing to be secondary to the west in last 90s. What were they rewarded?

The economic aid promised wasn't come!
She was deliberately rejected from International security systems!
And worst of the worse, Nato forces are now pushing to her doorway, which is the similar situation in 1940.

So, the fantasy about being secondary to West (or US) is broken by the actions of the West.

 

[asianobserve]

No, Russia was willing to be secondary to the west in last 90s. What were they rewarded?

The economic aid promised wasn't come!
She was deliberately rejected from International security systems!
And worst of the worse, Nato forces are now pushing to her doorway, which is the similar situation in 1940.

So, the fantasy about being secondary to West (or US) is broken by the actions of the West.

Nice try. I am talking about Russia under Putin not under Yeltsin.

But talking about the earlier post-USSR Russia, the West did help Russia in the early 1990s after the collapse of the USSR. Remember that Russia shouldered all foreign debts of the USSR in 1991. The West has given Russia all the breathing space in its foreign debt payment by offering several extensions of payments. The West likewise gave plenty of direct aid to Russia in those early post-USSR years.

Coming out from the Soviet economy and the collapse of the USSR, it was inevitable that Russia suffer economic hardships (it was already suffering economic hardships before the collapse of the USSR). The West can only do so much to help Russia, it was Russians themselves that should do the hard labor. But what did they do during those crucial years of transition? Russian corruption kicked in around Yeltsin and a lot of money that could have gone to the Russian government ended up enriching very few people, who brought out the money to Western countries.

On the issue of NATO membership, I think the West made the mistake of not letting Russia in formally (although it gave Russia an observer status in Brussels) in the early 1990s when Yeltsin asked for it. With Russia inside NATO then there's no reason for it to cry over NATO expansion into Eastern Europe. But NATO and Russia did enter into a sort of Council in the 1990s.

 

[pmaitra]

Nice try. I am talking about Russia under Putin not under Yeltsin.

But talking about the earlier post-USSR Russia, the West did help Russia in the early 1990s after the collapse of the USSR. Remember that Russia shouldered all foreign debts of the USSR in 1991. The West has given Russia all the breathing space in its foreign debt payment by offering several extensions of payments. The West likewise gave plenty of direct aid to Russia in those early post-USSR years.

Coming out from the Soviet economy and the collapse of the USSR, it was inevitable that Russia suffer economic hardships (it was already suffering economic hardships before the collapse of the USSR). The West can only do so much to help Russia, it was Russians themselves that should do the hard labor. But what did they do during those crucial years of transition? Russian corruption kicked in around Yeltsin and a lot of money that could have gone to the Russian government ended up enriching very few people, who brought out the money to Western countries.

On the issue of NATO membership, I think the West made the mistake of not letting Russia in formally (although it gave Russia an observer status in Brussels) in the early 1990s when Yeltsin asked for it. With Russia inside NATO then there's no reason for it to cry over NATO expansion into Eastern Europe. But NATO and Russia did enter into a sort of Council in the 1990s.

Nice try.

Yes, the west invested a lot of generous money, to somehow get their buddy, Yeltsin elected the second time (just like they propped up that puppet dictator Saakashvili, and that Mein Kampf quoting Arsenic Yatsenyuk), err, I mean, to "uphold democracy" in the post Soviet space.

The west also helped Russia a lot by moving eastwards, while constantly bleating like a deranged platypus that "Russia is a threat."

The west also helped Russia by supporting the fascist Baltic countries that deny the basic democratic voting rights to its Russian minorities.

Now, thank you for mentioning your lopsided view.

The IMF did everything to destroy the Russian economy. They made lots of promises, with the sole intention of wrecking havoc all over Russia. The west also gave shelter to the corrupt oligarchs who stole money from Russia and fled to the west (Boris Berezovsky).

The west also helped by sympathizing with the Chechen terrorists.

Don't stop. Keep entertaining us with your Midsummer Night's Dream.

 

[asianobserve]

Don't stop. Keep entertaining us with your Midsummer Night's Dream.

Ah, the man with Putin's lonely cross to carry...

You should know that the West did not install Yeltsin. The Russians chose him the first time and second time. The West just as now did not and cannot control Russia. Yeltsin being the Russian drunkard the he was absolutely was a disaster especially in his second term in office. Ultimately, Putin succeeded him after a bizarre sudden resignation of Yeltsin.

BTW, the West did not sought the Eastward expansion of both EU and NATO. It was Eastern European countries that courted these Western institutions to include them as members. In fact, if only Putin do not point a Russian pistol into their heads, all of these remaining non-EU and non-NATO Eastern European "independent/sovereign countries" around Russia would have joined these Western institutions a long time ago.

Now, with your vocal apologies for Putin's Russia, have you not asked why most if not all of Russia's neighbors want to get away from it and join the Western alliance?

 

[pmaitra]

You should know that the West did not install Yeltsin.

The second time around, yes, they did.

The Russians chose him the first time and second time.

Nope, not the second time. The elections were rigged, through and through. Keep peddling the State Department myth.

The West just as now did not and cannot control Russia. Yeltsin being the Russian drunkard the he was absolutely was a disaster especially in his second term in office. Ultimately, Putin succeeded him after a bizarre sudden resignation of Yeltsin.

The west also could not control the Afghan Mujahideen, Al-Qaida, FSA, ISIS, that it created.

BTW, the West did not sought the Eastward expansion of both EU and NATO.

They did.

It was Eastern European countries that courted these Western institutions to include them as members.

Some did.

In fact, if only Putin do not point a Russian pistol into their heads, all of these remaining non-EU and non-NATO Eastern European "independent/sovereign countries" around Russia would have joined these Western institutions a long time ago.

Not a fact, but another myth. Oh, those are neither independent nor sovereign, but vassal states.

Now, with your vocal apologies for Putin's Russia, have you not asked why most if not all of Russia's neighbors want to get away from it and join the Western alliance?

Not all. They don't. Right now, I see eastern Ukraine trying to get together with Russia, after having rejected NATO in all polls since 1991.

 

[jouni]

Interesting video, the truth is that it takes 50 to 100 years for somebody ( china, india) to catch US militarily. Until then things will go on the way they have been for the last 70 years.

 

[pmaitra]

Interesting video, the truth is that it takes 50 to 100 years for somebody ( china, india) to catch US militarily. Until then things will go on the way they have been for the last 70 years.

For India, I agree, but for PRC, I think they are much closer to catching up with the US. Their catching up is likely to accelerate now, given the current crisis.

 

[jouni]

The second time around, yes, they did.

Nope, not the second time. The elections were rigged, through and through. Keep peddling the State Department myth.

The west also could not control the Afghan Mujahideen, Al-Qaida, FSA, ISIS, that it created.

They did.

Some did.

Not a fact, but another myth. Oh, those are neither independent nor sovereign, but vassal states.

Not all. They don't. Right now, I see eastern Ukraine trying to get together with Russia, after having rejected NATO in all polls since 1991.

If you call Finland and Sweden vassal states, you really know nothing about Europe. Yes, we have good relations with Russia. Why try to find difficulties when you dont have to. On the other hand our military is completely western (NATO) compatible. Russia knows where we stand.

 

[pmaitra]

If you call Finland and Sweden vassal states, you really know nothing about Europe. Yes, we have good relations with Russia. Why try to find difficulties when you dont have to. On the other hand our military is completely western (NATO) compatible. Russia knows where we stand.

I do not consider Switzerland, Finland and Sweden as vassals. I do consider some other non-EU and non-NATO countries, like Moldova, Ukraine (after the coup) and Georgia (under Saakashvili) as vassals. Georgia may be ignored, since the original comment was about Eastern Europe.

This is a clarification.

 

[no smoking]

Interesting video, the truth is that it takes 50 to 100 years for somebody ( china, india) to catch US militarily. Until then things will go on the way they have been for the last 70 years.

No, we don't need to catch up with US militarily. The US military forces were designed for a worldwide dominance, which is obviously beyond American's economic capacity today. If US decides to keep its military advantage as today, the weight of its military cost will undermine its economic capacity as it did in last. However, the her economic system has been relying on the global dominance for last 40 years. So, any plan to downsize her military force will threat her dominance in every corner of this world, which will lead to the weakening of her economic basis. In return, this will undermine her military power further.

So, if we check the history of last 60 years, we can see a clear downward trend of American relatively economic power.
if we check the history of last 20 years, we can also see a clear downward trend of American relatively military power.
If we check the history of last 10 years, we can clearly see a decline of American's political influence.

 

[prohumanity]

Russia, China and India are already militarily equal to West. If any of these nations are attacked and a very strong willed government decides to rain all of its Nuclear missiles....the War will end in 48 hours with total destruction of all. USA dropped two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and war stopped abruptly. These nations already have enough weapons to destroy the entire World..not just the West... Besides Nukes..Chemical, Biological, conventional and Cyber.....NO BODY WILL WIN !

 

[jouni]

USA has changed his doctrine, less "global reach" it will focus more on Asia-Pacific, because her immediate rival China is there. In Europe EU:s role will rise in military defense of the continent. It is likely that NATO will be divided to two parts European contingent under EU and North american contingent under US and Canada. Ukrainian crisis will be a turning point towards this development.

 

[Ray]

Putin is in denial if he thinks China will deal with Russia on an equal footing. Things have changed dramatically in their relations since the USSR days. China has the upward momentum while Russia has the opposite. So Russia will not submit to being secondary to the West but will submit to China?

There is the magic formula KLPTD.

Take China up to a limit of technology and then.......

Russia still has much to give to those interested.

And China is not going to be choosy either, with the US and new found allies in the SCS trying to box China in.