The Brave Warrior - Prithviraj Chauhan - 1149-1192 AD

pkroyal

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Monarchs are fallible in their decisions.

Since they accumulate so much power( people bowing , scraping & genuflecting & generally elevating Kings to demi- god status) that even sane advice is impossible at times.

Leaving Ghori was a big tactical mistake. I am sure " Prithviraj's" chieftains must have tried to advice him against this step, but to no avail.

All major sardars who provided levies / fighters had a stake in the well being of the kingdom,( Ajmer) but a king can get deluded by his own victories & his own counsel.

Monarchies/ Dictatorships are inherently flawed in strategic / tactical decision making .
 
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rock127

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Look you guys ... why blame Prithviraj Chauhan....

In Indian diplomacy ... there is something called Prithviraj syndrome....

India has been afflicted by that typical Hindu syndrome in dealing with the decedents (at least they claim that loudly) of Ghori and Gazani even in modern times..

In 1948, 1965, 1971 and even after Kargil Indians simply let go Pakistan.

Had Nehru allowed Army to take over entire Kashmir, we would not have had POK ??
Had Indira settled borders with Pakistan having 90,000 POW arrested in India, the problems of border with Pakistan would have been over.
Had India taken and captured POK in 1971 after liberation of Bangladesh (as some claim was the intention of Indira Gandhi who buckled under US pressure not to do so - as per CIA archives made public) - the problem would have been sorted out..

Had Bajpai allowed IA to cross over LC in J&K during Kargil, the Pakistani bluff of Nuclear strike would have been exposed.

Had Bajpai allowed Indian Army to cross over the borders during Parakram , the story of the subcontinent would be different ...

In this context why only curse Prithviraj ..... he did it long back..

your rulers are doing it even today...
I have said it million of times the issue we have ie. not having a strategic view in international relations.

So whether it was PC or Nehru they did the mistakes which no one would forgive ever.Their mistakes are haunting us.

But are we ever going to learn from mistakes?? Why are we doing Gandhigiri all the time even after suffering it so much.There is no dearth of brave warriors in India but there is certain lack of strategic vision and unity. :tsk:
 

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Story of Kuram Devi and the Rajput victory over Aibak

Kuramdevi was born a Solanki Rajput in Anhilwara-Patan (Gujarat), a princess, and daughter of another of India's warrior women, Nayakidevi, regent of Anhilwarra-Patan during the minority of her son. Nayakidevi is the one who led the army to counter Muhammad Ghori's invasion of Anhilwara-Patan's territory. In a battle at Kayadra, a village near Mount Abu, she administered such a severe drubbing to Muhammad Ghori and his army that the Muslim prince never again came anywhere near Anhilwara-Patan.
But the point to note is that even here the Solanki army could not capture nor hunt down the army of Ghor.

Sometime in the 1170s, the young princess Kuramdevi (she could not have been much over 13 years of age, the age considered maturity at the time), became wife of Samar Singh Deva, the Rawal of Chittorgarh, a Sonagira Rajput. Samar Singh was a Chauhan Rajput, a descendant of the heroes who had captured Chittorgarh, probably the most famous fortress in all India, sometime in the middle of the 12th century.
I believe Rawal of Chittor were Guhilot Rajputs but @Virendra will know better.

Both Samar Singh Deva and his eldest son, Kalyan Rai, died in the second battle of Tarain, and Kuramdevi became regent during her younger son's minority. During this time she raised a new army from among her son's vassals, and as soon as Karna's 13th birthday passed and he reached the age of maturity, she led the army and marched northward in search of the man who had killed her husband—this probably in 1193 or 1194 in the month of Asoj (Asvin) following Dassera, the traditional beginning of the warfare season. Nine rajas and eleven chiefs with the title of rawat with their men accompanied her. The Prithviraj Raso gives no details of her route. Because by now she knew that Qtub-ud-din ruled in Delhi, one can surmise her route took her straight towards Delhi.



Fielding huge forces, the Muslims liked to spread the wings of their armies wide and envelop the smaller enemy forces in a deadly embrace. Sometimes they would even feign retreat in the center, drawing back as if recoiling from the enemy attack, thus enticing the enemy center forward, tricking him into exposing his flanks. But, if, as I suspect, the battle occurred at this narrow gap, Qtub-ud-din could not use such tactics. He had to meet the Rajputs on a front no wider than the gap itself.

However it may have been, the two forces met near the old Amber fort, and the Rajputs won. At the head of her army, Kuramdevi drove deep into the Muslim ranks, deep enough for her to confront the Muslim general himself and to engage him in a personal duel during which she managed to bury her sword deep into his flesh, wounding him so severely that he tumbled from the saddle. In alarm his attendants carried him away.

Kuramdevi believed she had killed Qtub-ud-din. The battle thus ended, she regrouped her army and led it back south. Returning to Chittorgarh, she mounted the pyre and, like Prithabai, became sati. But Qtub-ud-din did not die from his wounds. He eventually recovered and returned to Delhi, and subsequently declared himself not viceroy but sultan.

How true is this story? It's hard to say. The Prithviraj Raso was originally written by Chand Bardai, who died around 1200 AD. That is, he was still alive when Kuramdevi carried out her attack on Qtub-ud-Din. Therefore, he could well have added the episode to his text. But all extant versions of the Raso date from the 15th century or later, and range in size from the 1,300 stanzas of the Bikaner text to the 16,306 stanzas of the Udaipur text. Scholars generally agree that the Bikaner text is closest to Bardai's text, but there's no guarantee of this, and I have been unable to discover whether or not the Kuramdevi story appears in that version. It does, I know, appear in the Udaipur version, but the very size of the Udaipur text is a guarantee that it contains much added material beyond what Chand Bardai actually wrote himself.
 
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Bhadra

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I have said it million of times the issue we have ie. not having a strategic view in international relations.

So whether it was PC or Nehru they did the mistakes which no one would forgive ever.Their mistakes are haunting us.

But are we ever going to learn from mistakes?? Why are we doing Gandhigiri all the time even after suffering it so much.There is no dearth of brave warriors in India but there is certain lack of strategic vision and unity. :tsk:
"Gandhigiri" was practiced in India for centuries before Gandhi was born, That is the way of India. That is the tradition.

If any one is interested in knowing more, there is a very well researched book "Vol 2: Civil Disobedience in the Indian Tradition" by Dharampal here:

https://archive.org/details/DharampalCollectedWritingsIn5Volumes
 

Bhadra

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I quite agree with it. Can Anybody tell me when was the last time Pakis not Backstabbed Us, engaged in Foul Play,acted like Dogs and the list go on.

They are of that Gauri Breed and nothing but ruthlessness in dealing with them would suffice.
Ruthlessness, killings, looting, arsons are going on since ages. Can there be an end to that nonsense ?
How ?
We have had four military confrontation with Pakistan. ( Famous military Commentator Stephan P Cohen though described those as Communal riots at larger scale - which is not entirely true except for 1948)

Our military victory in 1971 was spectacular, ruthless and crippling for Pakistan?

Look at their ruthlessness - their military ruthlessness has brought their country to a point where the state is being called a failed state !!)

Has that solved the problem ?

If not, what needs to be done ?

Now, Nuc Pakistan out of Existence - now that we have intered Nuc age ?

Will that solve the problem ??
Has nuclear weapons given the required safety to Pakistan ?

Can any one answer these questions ? But logically please !!
 
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Bhadra

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@Simple Guy

Romila Thapar Claims that there were Rajputs in the armies of Muhamad Ghori as in the Army of Ghazani ? Ghori had a famed Rajput General by the name of Tilak.

Similarly Rajputs has Muslims Turks in their Armies.

So, Rajputs contributed to the defeat of Prithviraj and sacking of Somnath ???????????

What do you say... ?
 
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Simple_Guy

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Story of Kuram Devi and the Rajput victory over Aibak

But the point to note is that even here the Solanki army could not capture nor hunt down the army of Ghor.
This seems to have been the common thread in the Hindu victories against the invaders.

Continuing from the Rajput victory over Qutbuddin Aibak, who escaped with his army to Delhi.

Next sultan Iltutmish led the attack on Nagda (Mewar) in person. However, he was defeated by the Guhilot Rajputs with heavy losses....but not captured nor crushed in battle.

Sultan Iltutmish invaded northern Gujarat, but was repulsed by Vastupala Solanki. Escaped with his army.

Raziya defeated by Rajputs at Ranthambhor. Turks escaped

Balban defeated by Guhilot-Solanki alliance near Chittor. Returned home with his defeated army.
 

shinoj

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Ruthlessness, killings, looting, arsons are going on since ages. Can there be an end to that nonsense ?
How ?
We have had four military confrontation with Pakistan. ( Famous military Commentator Stephan P Cohen though described those as Communal riots at larger scale - which is not entirely true except for 1948)

Our military victory in 1971 was spectacular, ruthless and crippling for Pakistan?

Look at their ruthlessness - their military ruthlessness has brought their country to a point where the state is being called a failed state !!)

Has that solved the problem ?

If not, what needs to be done ?

Now, Nuc Pakistan out of Existence - now that we have intered Nuc age ?

Will that solve the problem ??
Has nuclear weapons given the required safety to Pakistan ?

Can any one answer these questions ? But logically please !!
No, You are getting it wrong. Ruthlessness in not invading or attacking other country but Ruthlessness in defending your own Motherland. By that i mean, killing the insurgents, dealing with them ruthlessly and not allowing them to live another day. We all know what happens if they escape once. they will come back again. They are really Pests.
 

Bhadra

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No, You are getting it wrong. Ruthlessness in not invading or attacking other country but Ruthlessness in defending your own Motherland. By that i mean, killing the insurgents, dealing with them ruthlessly and not allowing them to live another day. We all know what happens if they escape once. they will come back again. They are really Pests.
Questions : Ruthlessness in not invading or attacking other country but Ruthlessness in defending your own Motherland.

Which is the other country ? what is enemy ? What is attack and what is defense.... countries attack to defend // people defend before they attack ??

Question : By that i mean, killing the insurgents, dealing with them ruthlessly and not allowing them to live another day. We all know what happens if they escape once. they will come back again. They are really Pests.

You know a man called Lal Denga. Issac Muhiwa. DMK founder C. N. Annadurai, Naxalites leaders, Khalistan leaders... I can name many who were insurgents but became national leaders... who became a cause in national integration...

By the way Seikh Abdullaha was nothing less than a separatist and insurgent.. but then history is history...

Questionone : There is no use talking about internal issues when I asked pertinent, specific and pointed questions. Try and reply those..
 

shinoj

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Questions : Ruthlessness in not invading or attacking other country but Ruthlessness in defending your own Motherland.

Which is the other country ? what is enemy ? What is attack and what is defense.... countries attack to defend // people defend before they attack ??

Question : By that i mean, killing the insurgents, dealing with them ruthlessly and not allowing them to live another day. We all know what happens if they escape once. they will come back again. They are really Pests.

You know a man called Lal Denga. Issac Muhiwa. DMK founder C. N. Annadurai, Naxalites leaders, Khalistan leaders... I can name many who were insurgents but became national leaders... who became a cause in national integration...

By the way Seikh Abdullaha was nothing less than a separatist and insurgent.. but then history is history...

Questionone : There is no use talking about internal issues when I asked pertinent, specific and pointed questions. Try and reply those..
The Country is Pakistan, the enemy is the kashmiri Militants. Defense is the Indian Army trying to protect kashmir. Kashmir is an Indian Teritiory and No way it is going to Pakistan ever. Hence there is no question of compromise.

Kashmir was inhabited by Hindus one time. They got converted to Islam, then the Hindu Population started to be terrorised and no way kashmir is going to them. Look at the Mistake by Giving Punjab to them...
 

Bhadra

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No, You are getting it wrong. Ruthlessness in not invading or attacking other country but Ruthlessness in defending your own Motherland.
But in order to defend your motherland one has to cross over the otherside and neutralise or eliminate sources of the attack emenating from there. If you have major insurgent bases the otherside what will you do ?. If you have threat from Ghori missiles, wont you attack those bases to neutralise the threat ?

By that i mean, killing the insurgents, dealing with them ruthlessly and not allowing them to live another day. We all know what happens if they escape once. they will come back again. They are really Pests.
Why not deal with causes of inurgency ruthlessly ? which military in the world has been successful in eliminating insurgency? Insugency is just a menifestation of some other malise. Say, for example, if Pakistan breaks down, would there still be insurgency in Kashmir ?

Go logically and one may get some form of answer.
 
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Bhadra

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The Country is Pakistan, the enemy is the kashmiri Militants. Defense is the Indian Army trying to protect kashmir. Kashmir is an Indian Teritiory and No way it is going to Pakistan ever. Hence there is no question of compromise.
Who has asked for compromise ?

Your postulation is also wrong.

If the country is Pakistan then how can enemies be Kashmiries. Kashmiries are only a means. IF the Country in your view is Pakistan then the enemy has to be Pakistanis.

Kashmir was inhabited by Hindus one time. They got converted to Islam, then the Hindu Population started to be terrorised and no way kashmir is going to them.
Let us be very clear on basic issues.

Are we fighting a Hindu war in Kashmir ? The answer is NO.... a big NO.... We are involved there for the sake of a country called "India" and for her citizens , both Hindus and Muslims.

Afghanistan was also a Hindu country where people got converted to Islam. So after Kashmir you shall librate Afghanistan?
Then you will librate Fizi, Then West Indies, Then may be Sri Lanka and go and sit on Sumeru Parbat ?

Look at the Mistake by Giving Punjab to them...

Not understood.... You mean to say Lahore should have been the Capital of India ? That is what the Pukjabi Pakistanis also want ... as also those who migrated from there .. like Kuldeep, Gujral... Muni Maoun Singh and scores of others ..
 

shinoj

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But in order to defend your motherland one has to cross over the otherside and neutralise or eliminate sources of the attack emenating from there. If you have major insurgent bases the otherside what will you do ?. If you have threat from Ghori missiles, wont you attack those bases to neutralise the threat ?

If i being a Military commander and given sufficient rights and power to make decision, In India's Case Military is severely hampered by the Government, I will seriously consider crackdown on Terrorist Camps in POK. No Question About it. If the Terrorist are causing Mayhem in my country and the camps are situated in POK, then United Nations can go for a Hike, I will attack those Camps. And if Pakistan will consider using Nuclear option for that, then i will be prepared to deal with that also.

Why not deal with causes of inurgency ruthlessly ? which military in the world has been successful in eliminating insurgency? Insugency is just a menifestation of some other malise. Say, for example, if Pakistan breaks down, would there still be insurgency in Kashmir ?

Go logically and one may get some form of answer.

That is so Simplistic and Unrealistic. Just because You cannot contain Militancy 100 %, You imply that we should continue with Status Quo? I mean we have to try at our Best to contain Militancy. We cannot just sit and say which country has been able to contain Militancy. I cannot agree to the fact that some foreign country wants a piece of my Land just on the basis of Religion. We gave Pakistanis a piece of land which they were not really entitled to and that is just about it. If anything we need to consider taking back our land from Pakistan in Future.

Remember, the saying from Geeta. We need to perform our Karma and forget about the Results.
 

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If i being a Military commander and given sufficient rights and power to make decision,
you are right. But you have no suffient rights to make decisions. Someone makes decisions for you and they stick their neck.

Tell me how many generals have been court martialled for their professional incompetencies and wrong decisions/

None .. no general has suffred ignonimity of Ayub, Yahaya, Niyazi, Musharaff etc etc..
Why, because Indian Generals are not allowed to make decisions ??

India bought ignonimity in 1962 but who suffred consequences ? Menon and Nehru ? Generals Thapar, Koul and Chuadhary were not burried alive.

In India's Case Military is severely hampered by the Government,
so be it. I think Indian military is shielded. It is another thing that those who are at the helm of affairs , thier heads do not role except for a few cases. They reamin annonymous..

I will seriously consider crackdown on Terrorist Camps in POK. No Question About it. If the Terrorist are causing Mayhem in my country and the camps are situated in POK, then United Nations can go for a Hike, I will attack those Camps.
Subject to stipulations mentioned by you above.

And if Pakistan will consider using Nuclear option for that, then i will be prepared to deal with that also.
You need to examine that very seriously. When one decides to comit suicide ... one needs to be considering lots of pros and cons, ifs and buts..



It will be to your benefit you you keep answering my questions with some seriousness and efforts rather than only doing passtime on internet..




That is so Simplistic and Unrealistic. Just because You cannot contain Militancy 100 %, You imply that we should continue with Status Quo? I mean we have to try at our Best to contain Militancy. We cannot just sit and say which country has been able to contain Militancy. I cannot agree to the fact that some foreign country wants a piece of my Land just on the basis of Religion. We gave Pakistanis a piece of land which they were not really entitled to and that is just about it. If anything we need to consider taking back our land from Pakistan in Future.
I agree with you. Changing status quo or maintaining status quo is a cost benefit analysis coupled with what one wants and what will be beneficial to all of us, our collective desire, aims and goals. If my goal is only to destroy Pakistan or China to meet higher goal of peace and prosperity to my country, I shall do that by all means. However if destruction of Pakistan or China is not essentail to my goals of bringing peace and prosperity to my people then why shoul I go in for changing status quo? I shall focus on those things that brings bread to the mouth of my people.

About your question on militancy. My friend, Armed Forces are inserted into insurgency to contain it and not eliminate it. If you understand that much, you will be doing a better job of it rather than going gung ho like a Pakistani and end up using all airforce to straffe the Kabayalies / tribal and invining trouble for another 100 years.

Remember, the saying from Geeta. We need to perform our Karma and forget about the Results.
Good, at least you know such a saying exist. Now, try and understand what it means. It is not such trivial thing as you consider it to be.

Further, nothing can compensate serious study and contemplation of your subject perticulary if it happens to be related to national affairs or strategy.

So, do well...
 
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shinoj

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you are right. But you have no suffient rights to make decisions. Someone makes decisions for you and they stick their neck.

Tell me how many generals have been court martialled for their professional incompetencies and wrong decisions/

None .. no general has suffred ignonimity of Ayub, Yahaya, Niyazi, Musharaff etc etc..
Why, because Indian Generals are not allowed to make decisions ??

India bought ignonimity in 1962 but who suffred consequences ? Menon and Nehru ? Thapar, Koul and Chuadhary were not burried alive.



so be it. I think Indian military is shielded. It is another thing that those who are at the helm of affairs , thier heads do not role except for a few cases. They reamin annonymous..


Subject to stipulations mentioned by you above.



You need to examine that very seriously. When one decides to comit suicide ... one needs to be considering lots of pros and cons, ifs and buts..







That is so Simplistic and Unrealistic. Just because You cannot contain Militancy 100 %, You imply that we should continue with Status Quo? I mean we have to try at our Best to contain Militancy. We cannot just sit and say which country has been able to contain Militancy. I cannot agree to the fact that some foreign country wants a piece of my Land just on the basis of Religion. We gave Pakistanis a piece of land which they were not really entitled to and that is just about it. If anything we need to consider taking back our land from Pakistan in Future.

Remember, the saying from Geeta. We need to perform our Karma and forget about the Results.
[/QUOTE]


Oh Yes. As if Obeying to the weak Prime Minister had its benefits. We lost half of Kashmir due to that. Doesnt your Blood Boil knowing the place on which your ancestors used to stay has gone to Pakistan.

Me being a South Indian, my blood boils knowing all the history of Kashmir and how it has almost half gone to Pakistan, its being Islamicised, i wonder how you guys, i assume you being a North Indian, can stay mum.
 

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Oh Yes. As if Obeying to the weak Prime Minister had its benefits. We lost half of Kashmir due to that.
Who decides the PM is weak? The military, like in Pakistan ?

No, it the people who decide it through their vote. Their decision wrong or right is to be accepted by all.

Doesnt your Blood Boil knowing the place on which your ancestors used to stay has gone to Pakistan.
My ancestors used to stay all over Pakistan and even Aghanistan. Some like @Pratap say they used to live In Europe... so should my blood boil that Europe is not under India ?

That bloody Darwin said my ancestor was an Ape who used to stay in Africa?

Vedas said my ancestor was some golden egg called Hiranyagarbha... so which God or ancestor shall I give my offering to ??

My blood boils because Kashmir is part of my country under the Constitution of India and it is my sacred duty to fight for it.

I am not there to fight for some stupid whiter than egg Brahmin who through generations always played a significant role in subjugation of the rest of India and my ancestors.

Me being a South Indian, my blood boils knowing all the history of Kashmir and how it has almost half gone to Pakistan, its being Islamicised, i wonder how you guys, i assume you being a North Indian, can stay mum.
History of Kasmir... from Great Kashypa to Great Patanjali ... to Great Budhists like Nagrajuna and Padmasambava... who were the first Budhist converts... who were the first Islamic converts....

My blood boils for the present generation and not for their past... which is none too glourious.. including ignonimities of Nehrus and many of his Kashmiri ilks...
 
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shinoj

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Who decides the PM is weak? The military, like in Pakistan ?

No, it the people who decide it through their vote. Their decision wrong or right is to be accepted by all.



My ancestors used to stay all over Pakistan and even Aghanistan. Some like @Pratap say they used to live In Europe... so should my blood boil that Europe is not under India ?

That bloody Darwin said my ancestor was an Ape who used to stay in Africa?

Vedas said my ancestor was some golden egg called Hiranyagarbha... so which God or ancestor shall I give my offering to ??

My blood boils because Kashmir is part of my country under the Constitution of India and it is my sacred duty to fight for it.

I am not there to fight for some stupid whiter than egg Brahmin who through generations always played a significant role in subjugation of the rest of India and my ancestors.



History of Kasmir... from Great Kashypa to Great Patanjali ... to Great Budhists like Nagrajuna and Padmasambava... who were the first Budhist converts... who were the first Islamic converts....

My blood boils for the present generation and not for their past... which is none too glourious.. including ignonimities of Nehrus and many of his Kashmiri ilks...
Honestly its because of people like You we had to suffer so many Losses.. Philisophical beyond Calamity and still floating around in Vedas...
 
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Peter

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Honestly its because of people like You we had to suffer so many Losses.. Philisophical beyond Calamity and still floating around in Vedas...
Shinoj if you dont mind.What is the title of this thread?Prithviraj Chauhan:The Brave Warrior.Why you are all discussing about Nehru and Constitution?Last time I checked PC did not have a time machine and could not think about all this important matters.

As for PC`s loss in Battle of Tarain it was not that Prithviraj had been a coward or indecisive or philosophically weak.He just could not counter the cavalry of Ghori.I have stressed this so many times.Also people like Jaychand who wanted to rule over Delhi and Ajmer himself had betrayed Prithviraj.They had thought Ghori would leave India and reward them with his lands after Ghori had taken all the loot.
 

shinoj

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Shinoj if you dont mind.What is the title of this thread?Prithviraj Chauhan:The Brave Warrior.Why you are all discussing about Nehru and Constitution?Last time I checked PC did not have a time machine and could not think about all this important matters.

As for PC`s loss in Battle of Tarain it was not that Prithviraj had been a coward or indecisive or philosophically weak.He just could not counter the cavalry of Ghori.I have stressed this so many times.Also people like Jaychand who wanted to rule over Delhi and Ajmer himself had betrayed Prithviraj.They had thought Ghori would leave India and reward them with his lands after Ghori had taken all the loot.

Yeah, I think we should stop at this. Prithivi was a Brave and Valiant Warrior of India. And discussing Losers like nehru and Pakistanis here would not do justice to him.


Cant stop admiring the bravery of this Guy. if we had atleast one more person like Prithvi and in one Generation nobody would have dared put its eye on India.
 
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