Terrorist attack on Pathankot Airbase

Blackwater

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This

This is utter shit. USA is not our friend. They are a Pakistan ally. Wake up. Only Russia is our only friend, rest are all for the money.We are not awesome in terms of our international policy and security matters, we are considered a useless and soft pussy country.

Nobody is nobody"s friend , my friend . It's all about interest whether its countries or human [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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I believe they were downed by a shoulder fired MANPAD? the airforce countered this by removing the helicopters and bringing in the jets and flying them beyond the range of MANPADS. Sure, they did, but what is your point? Whose mistake is it that there was no intel on the presence of MANPADS? was the army to blame? How is it that there was no aerial recon of the area by the airforce or by our space assets?

This politics of inter-services blame game is the very reason that ground attack type roles must be given to a separate air-arm of the army, instead of calling the airforce which refuses to be held accountable for anything. Plus ringing in the airforce could even blow the cover of the operation if it is intercepted. If the army is given their own air assets, they become a self contained unit and no information needs to be shared with other branches.
1) they shot down Migs and not helicopters
2) Army wanted to just send IAF without taking into account IAF's criticism about the plan i.e. danger to aircraft due to presence of Manpads.

There were many lapses during/before Kargil. Lets not denigrate one or the other force. They were equal culprits and equal saviours.
 

Tony HMG

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When I say we are friends with USA, I mean it in the colloquial sense meaning we have a working relationship with both USA and Russia. In international relations, a friend is a person who hasn't killed you yet. Don't worry about my views, if you go through my previous messages on all the threads, you will realize that I am under no delusion about American hostility towards India but the context of this message was different. The US pressurizes all their 'allies' to sever ties with Russia, we didn't fall for that pressure, that is what I meant by 'being friends with both'.

As to Russia being a friend, we need to come out of our guilt trap of Russian help during 1971. Remember how they have blackmailed us for critical tech, delayed deliveries, randomly jacked up prices? Yup, that's the new Russia. They are talking about selling increasingly sophisticated weapons to Pakistan. Wake up and smell the coffee, this is not 1971 anymore. We HAVE to maintain an operational relationship with everyone and squeeze the best deal for ourselves. That's what I mean by 'being friends'.
In the scenario if we go to war with porkistan, USA will again try to screw us. Russia is needed for their veto power ability and in the war scenario, they will stand with us.
 

Navneet Kundu

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1) they shot down Migs and not helicopters
2) Army wanted to just send IAF without taking into account IAF's criticism about the plan i.e. danger to aircraft due to presence of Manpads.

There were many lapses during/before Kargil. Lets not denigrate one or the other force. They were equal culprits and equal saviours.
I am not denigrating the airforce, but their step-motherly treatment and reluctance to cradle our baby Tejas is distressing from the point of national security. Airforce says DRDO is incompetent, and DRDO says airforce doesn't co-operate and provide feedback. Because of the DRDO-airforce acrimony we have to buy Rafale from France. This results in loss of foreign currency, plus we will be beholden to France for 25 more years, until that Rafale is operational in our airforce, which means they can stop spares, weapons any time they want or any time US pressurizes.



PS : I saw a documentary where the airforce guy says that the MIG engine stopped working because it was underpowered and that type of aircraft generally has issues.

Here's the documentary (timeline 19:20 to 20:35) :

It also shows helicopter being shot down by MANPAD (timeline 21:27 to 21:39)

 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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I am not denigrating the airforce, but their step-motherly treatment and reluctance to cradle our baby Tejas is distressing from the point of national security. Airforce says DRDO is incompetent, and DRDO says airforce doesn't co-operate and provide feedback. Because of the DRDO-airforce acrimony we have to buy Rafale from France. This results in loss of foreign currency, plus we will be beholden to France for 25 more years, until that Rafale is operational in our airforce, which means they can stop spares, weapons any time they want or any time US pressurizes.

PS : The MIG was not shot down by the manpad, it fell off the sky. I saw a documentary where the airforce guy says that the engine stopped working because it was underpowered and that type of aircraft generally has issues.

Here's the documentary (timeline 19:20 to 20:35) :
Tejas is a separate topic and just because you do not like IAF, it does not mean you will question their role in Kargil war.

1 Mig saw failure of engines and one helicopter was shot down. But it was after IAF lost two assets in quick succession that Army allowed them to find solutions.
 

Screambowl

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first of all these Babus in air force are poorly trained. They fly sukhois as if they are driving some Delhi Bijnor bus. They need some action. Please depute them to missions in Kashmir. Live practice of hitting the hills there. Tab alsio ko pata chalega what is war.

because those who whould have flown in Kargil, would be soon retiring. And youngsters need to see some action so that their aggression remains.. otherwise Chai Bisuit muflor kejriwal type they will become..
 

Navneet Kundu

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Tejas is a separate topic and just because you do not like IAF, it does not mean you will question their role in Kargil war.

1 Mig saw failure of engines and one helicopter was shot down. But it was after IAF lost two assets in quick succession that Army allowed them to find solutions.
That's accurate. 1 MIG and one helicopter shot down.

The reason this problem occurs is BECAUSE the airforce does not allow the army to obtain their own air assets. Then they complain that the army messes up their plans. The airforce also threw a tantrum when the government announced the purchase of Apache for the army. There clearly is an ego war going in between the army and airforce and our ground troops become victims of that. Why does the airforce keep opposing plans to raise a separate air-arm of the army? That's because they want to monopolize the air-warfare domain and fear that their mandate will be watered down if the army gets air assets. Now tell me, does this line of reasoning reflect a primacy for national interest or personal interest?

First they behave irresponsibly then they expect immunity from criticism; Can't happen.
 
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Tony HMG

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Russian jets are not junk, as some people are saying here. I have been to various air force bases and HAL factories in India. The only reason of Mig and Sukhoi failures is extremely poor maintenance of the jets. There is rampant corruption in purchase of geneuine spares and servicing of the jets. DRDO is a failure,thats a truth.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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That's accurate. 1 MIG and one helicopter shot down.

The reason this problem occurs is BECAUSE the airforce does not allow the army to obtain their own air assets. Then they complain that the army messes up their plans. The airforce also threw a tantrum when the government announced the purchase of Apache for the army. There clearly is an ego war going in between the army and airforce and our ground troops become victims of that. Why does the airforce keep opposing plans to raise a separate air-arm of the army? That's because they want to monopolize the air-warfare domain and fear that their mandate will be watered down if the army gets air assets. Now tell me, does this line of reasoning reflect a primacy for national interest or personal interest?

First they behave irresponsibly then they expect immunity from criticism; Can't happen.
I do not think army should be given separate aviation wing. IAF can be scrapped totally if we go ahead with that logic. We need better coordination but building similar resources in army and air force does not make sense.
 

Navneet Kundu

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I do not think army should be given separate aviation wing. IAF can be scrapped totally if we go ahead with that logic. We need better coordination but building similar resources in army and air force does not make sense.
You haven't read the previous messages, sir. I have recommended distributing dissimilar resources, not similar resources. Give ground strike aircraft like Jaguar and Apache helicopters to Army, give Mig 29 and Tejas to Navy, let Airforce have air superiority fighter SU30MKI and multirole Rafale, create a special space command for space assets like satellites and exo-atmospheric reconnaissance aircraft. That's how we can have service chiefs who are subject matter experts. Right now, the airforce sits on all air assets and that leaves our other armed wings vulnerable to enemy attacks if there is a miscommunication of miscalculation by the airforce.

Expecting the airforce chief alone to understand the complexity of army operations, at the same time dealing with space assets is a little too much. He will need to have 3 PhDs to understand all these matters. He is airforce chief, let him manage airforce. Leave the ground strike and space roles for respective experts. It will allow the army to try all permutations and combinations of how they want to integrate the air assets in their strategy and give ample time to come up with an integrated battle plan. These things have to be constantly rehearsed and can't be done at the last moment after a war has already begun. That is the mistake we made during Kargil.

This is the reason we have a joint triservices command for Andaman and Nicobar islands.
 
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hit&run

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Few points:

Army aviation wings has to be added or strengthen according to army doctrine not out of some fancy compulsion of doing certain things to copy others.

Simple solution is; ask the army. In my understanding their is benign/lay-back approach which has been contagious and circulating back and forth between both bureaucracy and Army. When one is fast other is slow vice a versa. So they both are to be blamed as far as upgrading and procurement is concern.

Looking at India's defensive posturing against its two immediate enemies IAF as a dedicated entity same as Navy is a better option. India is not a war making state who requires hyper Interoperability and moving of logistics in a massive and faster speeds.

The Indian politics who controls all three branches and enjoys obedience still suffers from phobia of losing the control of such important Power. So they like these to be scattered entities.

Last but not least the whole debate of having a super unified command come in main discourse usually when polity is weak, clueless or allegedly complicit in making decision from raising war, coordinating anti terror operations to even sanctioning new shoes for infantry, etc.

If the leadership is assertive, can make fast decisions or preempt certain fast tactical or strategic maneuvering than these issue doesn't arose. We have adequate resources and means to run our functions and coordinate.

I am ending mt rave by saying we need to analyse things from our perspective, our own circumstances and conditions.

Of course there are always areas to improve and that gives us all the reason to think and deliberate. There is no harm in thinking. :wink:
 

hit&run

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so ready for retaliation ..............
.
........Donkey's Dick.

Nawaj Sharif has entangled Modi in Lahori lara and Tarla. Lahori excuses and pleas.

''Munda Khaleya aa" I have sent the boy to market who will be arriving back soon with food and goodies.

And in reality there is no guy, no market ,no food coming, keep waiting or go back and come another day.
 

Navneet Kundu

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''Munda Khaleya aa" I have sent the boy to market who will be arriving back soon with food and goodies.

And in reality there is no guy, no market ,no food coming, keep waiting or go back and come another day.
Well said. I think, the fact that Nawaz sat over a second meeting with their army and ISI chief means the latter is pressurizing Nawaz from giving in to Indian demands. The fact that US made a statement asking India to allow Pakistan to conduct investigations at its own pace indicates that the ISI had a friendly chat with their patron USA and made common cause with them.

In reality, that JeM guy should be handed over to India regardless of the Pathankot attack. He is wanted for many other anti-India activities. Pakistan should hand him over as a sign of goodwill. Nawaz, if he wants to, can manage to hoodwink the ISI and kidnap the JeM guy and hand him over to Indian consulate covertly. Nawaz might not have the backing of the military but he is a powerful billionaire with his own private militia. If he wants, he can still mend things. Let's wait and watch what happens.

If there is no favorable response and the US pressurizes India to come to the talking table regardless, we should assassinate the JeM guy before coming to the talking table. Then if the Pakistanis are offended and they want to back out of the dialogue, the ball is in their court.
 

Blackwater

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any damage to Migs or MI's???????? off course if yes Indian media has subdued it
 

Screambowl

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so ready for retaliation ..............
.
kon si retaliation bhaiya...? babus cannot retaliate.. they can only cough and have 5 cups of tea with ilaichi with rusk in office.. and in evening they will watch Kapil sharma doing mujra. :basanti:


any how, Intelligence is doing good work. You won't come to know about retaliation
 

hit&run

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Well said. I think, the fact that Nawaz sat over a second meeting with their army and ISI chief means the latter is pressurizing Nawaz from giving in to Indian demands. The fact that US made a statement asking India to allow Pakistan to conduct investigations at its own pace indicates that the ISI had a friendly chat with their patron USA and made common cause with them.
.
Good point, I appreciate putting forth your thoughts after reading current affairs. I was thinking the same, after statement from USA ( read direction) Pakistan has changed its tone. The state department guy who has been making borderline arbitrary statement needs to be cross checked using our diplomatic clout in USA if it is the official stand of Obama administration.
 

Screambowl

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Good point, I appreciate putting forth your thoughts after reading current affairs. I was thinking the same, after statement from USA ( read direction) Pakistan has changed its tone. The state department guy who has been making borderline arbitrary statement needs to be cross checked using our diplomatic clout in USA if it is the official stand of Obama administration.
Sooner or later it was to happen. You can now have clear picture that, US has started supporting the Pakistan. And this is one reason, Modi kept the NSA level meeting and meeting with Nawaz confidential till the last moment. Because when US intervenes, things land up discussing Kashmir.

US does not want any betterment of relations between India and Pak. And there is US lobby in Pakistan army working on orders from pentagon.

I suspect that Musharraf was part of that US lobby. And the coup was supported by US. Similarly, it is the US which does not come clearly on Mumbai 26/11 either. They condemn it, but when it comes to action, they will never pressurize Pakis as Pakis play for them in Asia.

India should discuss this matter with Russia and China and same time maintain our hold in Afg with Americans. Once Pakis are weaken India can double cross the rest.
 

sesha_maruthi27

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These terrorists are mocking our Armed forces and Ajith Doval and Modiji are doing survey of patankot? Is Ajith Doval really a powerful man or is he just another nautanki guy? Man I feel bad. Is there no one who can teach Pakistan a lesson? All this " muh thod jawab denge" are just words. I don't see any sort of reply being given to Pakistan. Shame on Modiji.... I think he has no guts...
 

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