Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine

[sgarg]

I want to comment on "Indian pilots are precious"?

Every citizen is precious. Let no citizen be more precious than any other citizen.

Let us get it out of our head that a person becomes precious just by joining air force.

I am fed up of this this-vs-that nonsense in this country:

Examples - public sector vs private sector (why should defence production be reserved for public sector? Are public sector employees made of gold and private sector employees made of dirt. What is the difference?

If the country can afford a $130 million fighter, then it will buy. A $130 million fighter is no more important to India than food for every citizen.

The country will win its wars ONLY if the whole nation is behind its forces. Rafale will not win wars for this country. If India buys Rafale, China will buy "Rafale ka baap". They have three trillion dollars in fx reserves.

We MUST build our equipment as it provides jobs to people. India needs these jobs.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yes, These are not dedicated CAS but Multi-role and these aircraft can provide needed CAS as was provided during Kargil ..

I agree, They are not dedicated CAS aircraft ..

This exactly is my point @Kunal Biswas and @ersakthivel, and that is why I said, LCA is not designed for CAS. The wing profile of the LCA, or for that matter the MiG-21, is a sheer giveaway.

We can do a lot of improvisation with these high-altitude fighters and use them for CAS, just like we fitted rocket-pods to the Mil-17 and called it a "gunship," but it still is a troop transporter.

====================

We have to get rid of the ideology of this vs = to this many, Its not how it works at all ..

We still have three main missions, IAF calls them :

1. Long Range Strike Mission ..
2. Air Defense (AD) (including Combat Air Patrol and point AD) ..
3. Close Air Support ..

IAF argue the need of Rafale is for strike and air-supremacy, But it is a known fact that we do not have any kind of Anti-radiation missiles for suppression of S-300/400 Equivalents, In that case any ideology of strike aircraft diminished as there cannot be any air supremacy in these areas where such systems are deployed, Such SAM network are in TAR region ..

Rafale over this senerio is useless, Then comes the air-supremacy in that case Tejas is no less effective then why we are making such a huge investment after a 4.5gen fighter where at the same money we can make our own 5th generation in coming years ..

"And for the cost of one rafale we can easily operate three tejas fighters."

Actually it is more like one Rafale = 8 Tejas

 

[p2prada]

Also, no delta wing can ever hope to match slow speed maneuverability of a straight wing config. Canards and levicons can only get you so far. For "low and slow" a stable airframe winch has glider like characteristics is non-negotiable.

Actually Rafale can. I don't know the reasons, but with a combination of CC canards, fuselage lift design, the engine, and French jugaad, the Rafale's slowest speed is 50 knots. Most aircraft of its type cannot even handle 150 knots.

The French couldn't even do spin tests properly because it was so well designed. They have a anti-spin switch on their aircraft which has never been used to date in the last 20 years.

In the Rafale vs F-22 dog fight video, Rafale was performing maneuvers as slow as 80 Knots.

And Rafale was designed for both air superiority and ground strike, unlike most other fighters. Apparently, low altitude is where the Rafale is best at.

 

[p2prada]

This exactly is my point @Kunal Biswas and @ersakthivel, and that is why I said, LCA is not designed for CAS. The wing profile of the LCA, or for that matter the MiG-21, is a sheer giveaway.

We can do a lot of improvisation with these high-altitude fighters and use them for CAS, just like we fitted rocket-pods to the Mil-17 and called it a "gunship," but it still is a troop transporter.

When you mention the above people you gotta discard logic and common sense.

Knowledge too.

Example.

But it is a known fact that we do not have any kind of Anti-radiation missiles for suppression of S-300/400 Equivalents,

You and I both know the statement is completely false. But you have to let them live in their bubble else risk getting cancer yourself.

 

[Pulkit]

Thanks to Tarmak007 Facebook Page
Really nice

Dear IAF,

My special greetings on your 82nd b'day! I saw some photos on Tarmak007 and was happy to see that Hindon Station is all decked up for the AF Day Parade on October 8. Last year too I missed flying there and this year too I will be missing.

But my dad in ADA, mom in HAL and uncle in DRDO promise that for your 83rd birthday -- I will be surely there. Not in the current yellow-pillow colour. I hate this yellow paint. But, I shall come in the mesmerizing IAF Squadron colours.

I met some of the Tejas Squadron pilots in Bangalore the other day at NFTC and one guy asked me: "Aur kitna wait karna padega? (How long we have to wait?)." They are in a hurry to take me to Sulur, my honeymoon base. Nice guys!

Some of my cousins have gone to Jaisalmer to celebrate Diwali. This time they are firing some new bombs and missiles.

These media chaps are behind me again and they are saying I am light, but late. These guys don't know: Better late than never!

It's raining in Bangalore now and I have some night flying lined up as well. Send me some photos of AF Day Parade on WhatsApp. If time permits, please do reply after the b'day bash.

Happy B'day. Miss you guys!

Love

Tejas
Oct 7, 2014

 

[Pulkit]

@Kunal Biswas @ersakthivel







Isn't this a you turn if yes ... what made them realise this so late...????

 

[archie]

New Govt Gave them a Dressing down??

 

[pmaitra]

Can we convert Kiran for anti-tank role - say with helina launchers?

Hypothetically yes, but that depends upon the weight carrying capacity of the hard-points. Wiki says it can carry 2x227kg load, so, we shall have to see the weight of Helina and it's assemblies. I do not know for sure.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Actually Rafale can. I don't know the reasons, but with a combination of CC canards, fuselage lift design, the engine, and French jugaad, the Rafale's slowest speed is 50 knots. Most aircraft of its type cannot even handle 150 knots.

The French couldn't even do spin tests properly because it was so well designed. They have a anti-spin switch on their aircraft which has never been used to date in the last 20 years.

In the Rafale vs F-22 dog fight video, Rafale was performing maneuvers as slow as 80 Knots.

And Rafale was designed for both air superiority and ground strike, unlike most other fighters. Apparently, low altitude is where the Rafale is best at.

14th january is nearing

mein lapet rahan hun

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Actually Rafale can. I don't know the reasons, but with a combination of CC canards, fuselage lift design, the engine, and French jugaad, the Rafale's slowest speed is 50 knots. Most aircraft of its type cannot even handle 150 knots.

at what altitude and for how long this flight at 50 knots is maintained ?

The French couldn't even do spin tests properly because it was so well designed. They have a anti-spin switch on their aircraft which has never been used to date in the last 20 years.

In the Rafale vs F-22 dog fight video, Rafale was performing maneuvers as slow as 80 Knots.

again what was the altitude
if air speed was displayed / altitude too would be displayed

And Rafale was designed for both air superiority and ground strike, unlike most other fighters. Apparently, low altitude is where the Rafale is best at.

while we are bashing Tejas on CAS role
compare rafale on CAS role

dont compare tejas on CAS role parameters and Rafale on Ground strike role parameters

CAS and Ground Strike are both different right ?

 

[arnabmit]

Don't know why MMRCA baiters don't understand this simple fact

[tweet]519855359112912896[/tweet]
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/519855359112912896

 

[ersakthivel]

Don't know why MMRCA baiters don't understand this simple fact

[tweet]519855359112912896[/tweet]
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/519855359112912896

Why MMRCA baiters dont understand this simple fact is there is something called budget in the real world.

IAF wont have the budget to induct many hundreds of Tejas,126 rafale and 100 plus FGFA all within the next twenty years.

SO for immediate needs we need to prioritize tejas and pool our resources on FGFA , which will be the main stay in the next decade.

WHat IAF under UPA vision is doing is asking umpteen changes in FGFA and delaying its induction to squeeze 20 billion rafale buy in. Once rafale commitments are made you can expect all tejas baiters to sing in chorus that we cant waste resources for tejas mk2 as FGFA buy should be prioritized.

And umpteen IAF air marshals constantly dumping on tejas in vayu strat post conferences have never cared to explain one important problem with this exorbitant rafale buy, i.e how do they expect rafale to take on J-20 and J-31 in its deep bombing missions in Tibet, which they explain is the main reason behind rafale buy.

Unlike IAF making ADA to dance to its tune on tejas FOC and IOC, PLAF will start giving hundreds of orders to J-20 just after four or five years without waiting for its "complete development". Then how will rafale fare in its primary bombing mission in tibet against J-20?

Right now PAKFA is going to enter into Russian airforce with in a couple of years time. If you are the IAF chief will you ask indian government to order PAKFAs immediately and later exchange them for FGFA like we did on SU-30 MKI or will go on singing praise of 1980s rafale 4.5th gen design.

When this MMRCA tender was initiated in 2004 , there was no J-20. Now it is there.

Now ten long years have passed and J-20, J-31 are flying .So there is no way they can say that they have factored in J-20 in their MMRCA tender process way back in 2004 itself.

So does that change anything in IAF's thinking or not?

 

[ersakthivel]

Actually Rafale can. I don't know the reasons, but with a combination of CC canards, fuselage lift design, the engine, and French jugaad, the Rafale's slowest speed is 50 knots. Most aircraft of its type cannot even handle 150 knots.

The French couldn't even do spin tests properly because it was so well designed. They have a anti-spin switch on their aircraft which has never been used to date in the last 20 years.

In the Rafale vs F-22 dog fight video, Rafale was performing maneuvers as slow as 80 Knots.

And Rafale was designed for both air superiority and ground strike, unlike most other fighters. Apparently, low altitude is where the Rafale is best at.

Of course , you dont know the reason to explain any aerodynamic principle is something I know a couple of years back.

Fuselage lift design and french juggad wont produce any new aerodynamic thesis for low altitude low speeds of rafale.

rafale's very high thrust to weight ration along with the fact that its engines can reach full military thrust in 4 flat seconds make it possible for it to avoid stalling at such low speeds.

And at high AOA when your beloved stub winged high wing loading fighters starts to stall ,

low wing loading deltas transcend to vortex based flight due to their delta wing shape ,

which is the primary reason for delta wings to achieve highest possible lift forces in high AOAs, which also helps in avoiding stall at this low speed flights.

I too have come across reports on the net saying rafale straining down to as low as 18 knots to beat mirage-2000(true or not is something I dont know),

, which means that mirage-2000 too is capable of slow speeds with no canards, french jugaad and body lift .

moot point is at what altitude rafale does that. because if there is enough altitude cushion rafale can simply avoid stall by getting higher thrust from its engines.

tejas mk2 too will have higher powered engines leading to a TWR closer to rafale.

 

[ersakthivel]

at what altitude and for how long this flight at 50 knots is maintained ?



again what was the altitude
if air speed was displayed / altitude too would be displayed



while we are bashing Tejas on CAS role
compare rafale on CAS role

dont compare tejas on CAS role parameters and Rafale on Ground strike role parameters

CAS and Ground Strike are both different right ?

These speeds can be maintained only for a very short while that too with no weapon loads which is meaningless in CAS role , because what is the use of flying at 50 knots with no weapons to aim at.

At high altitudes many fighters can maintain zero forward speed stall, drop and then resume flight which is no aerodynamic wonder.

Without the aid of thrust vectoring you cant maintain those low speeds at low altitudes with weapons to make any meaningful use in CAS role.even if it is done it is dreadfully dangerous game to play for the skilled pilot and 100 million dollar fighter.

In airshows it may look good but in real world infested with MANPADS maintaining 50 knots at ground level for any prolonged period of time is simply signing one's death warrant.

but canaries keep on singing, Don't expect them to stop at any moment.

Another six months of tweets from Saurav jha will expose all their lies on tejas . SO they are now singing on another track.that is to be expected, nothing to be surprised at all.

 

[arnabmit]

I don't know why you think MMRCA is out of budget. $86mil (acquisition cost, not lifetime cost) for each fighter is not a big deal. Rafale will happen, so will Tejas (all versions), and so will FGFA.

By 2025 we will have 40+ squadrons and by 2030 60+ squadrons would be planned. By 2030 there might be 300 Tejas flying along with 128+63 Rafale, 270+ MKI & 50+ FGFA. By then AMCA would be ready and would replace all M2000UPG, JaguarUPG & MiG-29UPG.

Who told you that Tejas is not a priority? Both Tejas and Rafale are priorities. Both will happen at tandem, not one at the cost of the other.

You are forgetting who is the PM now. All the idiots screaming their heads off would amount to naught.

If you are a Tejas supporter, it does not mean that you have to be a Rafale baiter. Or vice-versa. IAF needs both. IAF will get both.

Why MMRCA baiters dont understand this simple fact is there is something called budget in the real world.

IAF wont have the budget to induct many hundreds of Tejas,126 rafale and 100 plus FGFA all within the next twenty years.

SO for immediate needs we need to prioritize tejas and pool our resources on FGFA , which will be the main stay in the next decade.

WHat IAF under UPA vision is doing is asking umpteen changes in FGFA and delaying its induction to squeeze 20 billion rafale buy in. Once rafale commitments are made you can expect all tejas baiters to sing in chorus that we cant waste resources for tejas mk2 as FGFA buy should be prioritized.

And umpteen IAF air marshals constantly dumping on tejas in vayu strat post conferences have never cared to explain one important problem with this exorbitant rafale buy, i.e how do they expect rafale to take on J-20 and J-31 in its deep bombing missions in Tibet, which they explain is the main reason behind rafale buy.

Unlike IAF making ADA to dance to its tune on tejas FOC and IOC, PLAF will start giving hundreds of orders to J-20 just after four or five years without waiting for its "complete development". Then how will rafale fare in its primary bombing mission in tibet against J-20?

Right now PAKFA is going to enter into Russian airforce with in a couple of years time. If you are the IAF chief will you ask indian government to order PAKFAs immediately and later exchange them for FGFA like we did on SU-30 MKI or will go on singing praise of 1980s rafale 4.5th gen design.

When this MMRCA tender was initiated in 2004 , there was no J-20. Now it is there.

Now ten long years have passed and J-20, J-31 are flying .So there is no way they can say that they have factored in J-20 in their MMRCA tender process way back in 2004 itself.

So does that change anything in IAF's thinking or not?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In economical sense, The money we are providing to french for these outdated fighters ( In near future ) will help them to make 5th Gen ration Rafales, But we Indians will be stuck with over priced 4.5 generation fighters ..

In the same sense, We are spending fraction of the money for 200 tejas which can be upgrade locally for future threads, And with the same amount for buying and upgrading these Rafales we can make and produce Tejas 5th generation ..

----------

Is it worth spending after a fighter that would need to be purchased in such small quantity at such a large cost which it does not deserve, For limited operational usages due to newly formed threads .. ?

 

[dastan]

In economical sense, The money we are providing to french for these outdated fighters ( In near future ) will help them to make 5th Gen ration Rafales, But we Indians will be stuck with over priced 4.5 generation fighters ..

In the same sense, We are spending fraction of the money for 200 tejas which can be upgrade locally for future threads, And with the same amount for buying and upgrading these Rafales we can make and produce Tejas 5th generation ..

----------

Is it worth spending after a fighter that would need to be purchased in such small quantity at such a large cost which it does not deserve, For limited operational usages due to newly formed threads .. ?

Sir, is there any likelihood of the deal being scrapped in present scenario?

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't know why you think MMRCA is out of budget. $86mil (acquisition cost, not lifetime cost) for each fighter is not a big deal. Rafale will happen, so will Tejas (all versions), and so will FGFA.

By 2025 we will have 40+ squadrons and by 2030 60+ squadrons would be planned. By 2030 there might be 300 Tejas flying along with 128+63 Rafale, 270+ MKI & 50+ FGFA. By then AMCA would be ready and would replace all M2000UPG, JaguarUPG & MiG-29UPG.

Who told you that Tejas is not a priority? Both Tejas and Rafale are priorities. Both will happen at tandem, not one at the cost of the other.

You are forgetting who is the PM now. All the idiots screaming their heads off would amount to naught.

If you are a Tejas supporter, it does not mean that you have to be a Rafale baiter. Or vice-versa. IAF needs both. IAF will get both.

If that is the case why are so many key IAF guys instrumental in framing MMRCA tender in vayu stratpost conference pouring hot water over tejas?

In reality both rafale and tejas can not get 128 plus 300 number orders within the next decade . Especially with FGFA knocking on the doors there is no room for such a big spend.

Either 300 number order for tejas will eat into rafale order or rafale 126+64 order will reduce tejas to token induction like arjun in IA.

That is the sad reality.

Flip side of the coin is there is nothing extraordinary that can be done by rafale which can not be done by super sukhois.And nobody knows the effectiveness of rafale against J-20 in its deep bombing missions in Tibet as IAF wants it to do.

Already last year 7000 crores earmarked for IAF modernization was diverted to routine maintenance. That is the sad reality of defence budgets.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Hard to say so, But most likely lesser numbers ..

Sir, is there any likelihood of the deal being scrapped in present scenario?

 

[cloud]

There is no change of mind for IAF, its just that IAF had to push for RAFALE first(and now since its almost finalized) as they knew that they can get LCA anytime in big numbers when its ready to MK2 level and there won't be any fund shortage for LCA since its cheaper and homemade(so no much advance payment etc, they can just pay for LCA from 20% of the budget allotted to IAF every year as they get some LCAs every year).