Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine

[Kunal Biswas]

It's stationed in Sulur close to it's production hub in Bangalore to sort out any issues that might happen in the first year or so. Similarly Su-30Mki's first squadrons were raised in Pune close to its production line in Nashik. It's gpt nothing to do with keeping the bird away from the borders when dilapidated MiGs are flown everyday. @Twinblade

First of all we need 40 fully operational Tejas mk 1 to be ready and deployed at Forward
air bases like Bhuj ; Jaisalmer ; Jamnagar or Adampur

That will signal BOTH; intent of IAF and capability of Tejas

However IAF and DRDO are being cautious and creating the squadron at Sulur near ADA Bangalore

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IAF is planning to operate 14 sqadron of Tejas of both MK1 & 2 >>

In a written statement tabled in the Lok Sabha on Monday, Antony's deputy, Jitendra Singh, stated, "The MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircrafts of the IAF have already been upgraded and currently equip 14 combat squadrons. These aircraft, however, are planned for being phased out over the next few years and will be replaced by the LCA."

So far, the IAF has committed to inducting only six Tejas squadrons — two squadrons of the current Tejas Mark I, and four squadrons of the improved Tejas Mark II. In addition, the navy plans to buy 40-50 Tejas for its future aircraft carriers.

Source : IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs | Business Standard News

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Its just matter of time when more assembly and manufacturing lines will be open in Gov / Pvt for Tejas ..

Darin upgrades does not even involve a radar, Its an outdated aircraft in mist of multi-roles of today ..

It will take Five years to get ALL 40 Tejas Mk 1 inducted starting from SP 1

IAF does NOT have the luxury of waiting for so long

Jaguar with DARIN 2 and DARIN 3 are now very capable planes

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Difficult to face joint China-Pak threat: IAF

The IAF has told a Parliamentary panel that Pakistan would certainly fish in troubled waters if China were to launch offensive operations against India.

Advertisement The IAF has told a Parliamentary panel that Pakistan would certainly fish in troubled waters if China were to launch offensive operations against India. It, however, stressed that China may not pose "a collusive threat". if hostilities were to break out between India and Pakistan.

The panel warned that the pace of China's military modernisation and infrastructure development had affected the "strategic balance" between the two countries.

Source : Difficult to face joint China-Pak threat: IAF - Hindustan Times

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Su-30MKI engine failures worry IAF

The Sukhoi-30MKI fleet of the Indian Air Force has been encountering mid-air engine failures for the past two years. India has officially flagged the matter to Russia seeking a correction.

Repeated engine failures and the newly introduced precautionary measures have affected the availability of planes for various operations. The IAF has a fleet of 200 Sukhois.

After a failure, the engine is replaced after testing before allowing the plane to fly again. The process of removing and replacing an engine usually takes four-five days, but can be extended depending upon the damage.

The number of single-engine landings by planes in two years is high and not healthy. It lowers the operational ability of the fleet, besides raising questions about war readiness, said sources.

The exact number of such engine burnouts and percentage of fleet that is not available for flying at any point of time are being held back from publication in the newspaper as it would adversely impact national security.

Source : The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

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An Airforce cannot be confident on borrowed feathers ..

On ANOTHER Note IAF is gearing up for a TWO Front War ( As is the IA )

The Exercise Live wire in March 2013 was carried out for this contingency

 

[power_monger]

Second, LCA has low wing loading, it is not meant for continuous low altitude performance. It's gust response is very poor. It is designed to fly and fight at higher altitudes. The F-404 engines are leaky turbojets that are efficient only at medium and high altitudes. So, neither the airframe nor engine are equipped for this type of mission.

F/A-18 Hornet uses the same F-404 engine and yet used for Close air support.Isn't it?

 

[p2prada]

F/A-18 Hornet uses the same F-404 engine and yet used for Close air support.Isn't it?

It doesn't perform the first type. It perform the second type with PGMs. But that's well after air superiority is accomplished. USAF, USN etc simply operate in an entirely different way. We can't yet emulate the same. We tried using fixed wing aircraft in CAS during Kargil, and we had to pull them back within the first few weeks.

Soldiers on the ground have been quite vocal about having more A-10 CAS missions over Hornet CAS missions. And unlike LCA, Hornet is designed for low level operations. So it's airframe is more compatible with low altitude missions. It has two engines, so more power is generated at low altitudes. The difference is 100+ KN versus 50+ KN for LCA while performing the same mission.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

There are two ways to achieve CAS missions. CAS means Close Air Support. It means soldiers on the ground provide targets for the aircraft. One is the very old method of flying close to the ground and the second is a more recent method of employing PGMs and networking.

For the first one, there are a lot of intrinsic characteristics that the LCA lacks. Firstly, it doesn't carry the right kind of weapons. The gun is meant for air to air, not air to ground strafing. It is of lower caliber rounds with lesser rate of fire. LCA is not equipped with rocket pods.

1st weapons integration has only started

Teajas can carry whatever wespons we choose to integrate

do rafales carry rocket pods ?

if tejas has not been tested with rocket pods - it can be integrated and can carry not a big deal

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Second, LCA has low wing loading, it is not meant for continuous low altitude performance. It's gust response is very poor. It is designed to fly and fight at higher altitudes. The F-404 engines are leaky turbojets that are efficient only at medium and high altitudes. So, neither the airframe nor engine are equipped for this type of mission. And Jaguar is armored, while LCA is not. A few shots from the ground and the LCA is toast while Jaguar can eat multiple large caliber rounds and still finish its mission.

what is the wing loading of all delta forms of plane high / low

what is the wing loading of rafale hing wing loading / low wing loading ?

if the wing loading of Rafale / tejas are same low wing loading

then how can you claim rafale better than tejas at CAS roles ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

While LCA carries a radar, it still doesn't carry a digital map generator or radar altimeter for low level flight. Your radar will end up being used up for these functions instead and your targeting suffers. And radars aren't silent, they will inform the enemy of your arrival very early at those ranges. Jaguar is also being equipped with a radar, but that is meant for strike missions because of a requirement to carry cruise missiles and other stand off weapons, not CAS.

WOW the radar of tejas will inform the enemy of arrival and those of Jaguar will not

harry potter movie radars - mfgd at hoghwarts

if jaguras will be accompnied by migs/tejas for cover wont those radars anoune the strike

dont confuse the strike missions (deep strike of jags )

with CAS missions being dicussed for Tejas

dont mix and try to fool us

 

[p2prada]

1st weapons integration has only started

Teajas can carry whatever wespons we choose to integrate

So even Mig-21 can do CAS missions?

do rafales carry rocket pods ?

Yes, Rafale carry rocket pods. Rafale comes with next generation CAS weapons profile.

Rafale will eventually bring this level of technology to India.

if tejas has not been tested with rocket pods - it can be integrated and can carry not a big deal

Mig-21 also carries rocket pods, but it is used in air interdiction.

CAS is simply not LCA's role. LCA's role is primarily to protect the skies and protect other aircraft.

 

[p2prada]

WOW the radar of tejas will inform the enemy of arrival and those of Jaguar will not

harry potter movie radars - mfgd at hoghwarts

if jaguras will be accompnied by migs/tejas for cover wont those radars anoune the strike

dont confuse the strike missions (deep strike of jags )

with CAS missions being dicussed for Tejas

dont mix and try to fool us

Wow, I can't educate you to that level. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

For the second type of mission, you need two things. One would be a very diverse menu of PGMs and second would be pilot training. LCA lacks both. Air to air weapons are not used for CAS. So Derby, Astra etc are entirely useless. What you need is LGBs, cluster bombs, fuel air explosives and low collateral damage weapons like Brimstone. As of today LCA is only integrated with LGBs out of these. And CAS requires high integration with ground troops. LCA isn't designed for this mission, it is designed for missions that the Mig-21 is supposed to carry out. So LCA pilots are trained to protect Jaguar from hostile aircraft, they are trained to perform in WVR, BVR and dog fights, which are not Jaguar's domain. Naturally, due to LCA's multirole requirement, LCA pilots also carry out air interdiction missions, but that doesn't require assistance from soldiers. The low caliber LGBs are not meant to strike at hardened targets, but to destroy enemy formations at greater ranges than what is required for CAS. Thus for this mission you need 500 Kg LGBs and cruise missiles like the KH-35 or Harpoon, which Jaguars can also do.

abject nonsense

1.
when the trainings for LCA pilots havent even begun how can you claim that the pilots are not trained for those roles

You claim rafale will be better at CAS roles than tejas

are the pilots trained on rafale for CAS roles right now ?

what nonsense logic you are applying

when pilots training has not even begun yet ?

2.
on one hand you claim lCA lacks range on the other hand you claim they are designed as escorts for Jags etc
if tehy are designed as excort means they need to have equal and sufficient range

if they have equal and sufficient range - then you earlier claim of low range is false

now on strike missions tell me how will the escorts fly
will the escorts fly higher than the jags /strikers and anounce the ingress
or will the escorts fly low in terrain hugging mode just as the strikers ?

3
integrating armaments is not a big deal as you are making it out to be
it is NO BIG DEAL
what do you expect when a new AC is made it will be integrated with all weapons overnight ?

Tejas has inbuilt targeting posds / instrument

it can fire A2A missiles
it can deliver bombs LGBS
it can fire anit armour missiles (Nag) - will be integrated
you think cluster bombs will eb impossible tto integrate ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Yes, Rafale carry rocket pods. Rafale comes with next generation CAS weapons profile.

Rafale will eventually bring this level of technology to India.




Mig-21 also carries rocket pods, but it is used in air interdiction.

CAS is simply not LCA's role. LCA's role is primarily to protect the skies and protect other aircraft.

Eventually LCA too will perform those roles

the problem is Tejas is just taking birth in IAF and you want it to do everything yesterday

but when it comes to Rafale doing it yesterday you switchback to eventually

you want to give it time

why not give time to tejas .. and eventually Tejas too will do this do that ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

@PaliwalWarrior

Like every Indian I too wish the LCA to be e great success But just look at the facts

1 Tejas Mk1 FOC has been delayed yet again for lack of Quartz Radome and IFR Probe

2 BVRAAM firing will happen Next Month

the event that tejas will fire BVRAAM without waiting for quartz radome should tell you about the capabilites of the radar and tejas

3 SP 1 has been in the Making for ONE YEAR Now and is FINALLY ready

tejas has been made and delivered in less than a year - quiet good actually

Dasault needs 36 months to produce 1 rafale

Yet you are dreaming of 16 LCA per year ; It is NOT as easy as making CAKES you know
8 LCA per year is the realistic and achievable target

no 1st year 8 and then 16 to 32 it depends on production line + rolling concept
i.e.

if your mfg time is 8 months then on 1 production line at month 1 you will have 1 tejas under production
at month 6 you will have have 8 tejas under production at vaious stages
for 2 production lines at month 6 you will have 12 tejas in production at various stages and so on

so afte the first year / eight months is over you will continously tejas rolling off the production line

only the irst 8 months or 1 year will be difficult waiting period

 

[JBH22]

The Cold Start Doctrine emphasise on mobility and we all know India has lots of catch up to do in the following;

1. Self Propelled Artillery- Trying to offset it with MLRS like Pinaka. Bhim would have been a great addition to our arsenal.
2 Helicopters- Lots of them are required. Army Aviation has requirement of 300 MI-17 types choppers to airlift full brigade. Attack helicopters like Rudra,LCH and Apache are in pipeline
3. Mechanised/Motorised Infantry- Needed to keep up with tanks striking enemy strongholds. T-90 and T-72 would be tip of the spear,but yet to offer any definite advantage over existing Pakistanis armour unless comprehensive upgrade is undertaken. Arjun Mk2 seems to suggest an upper hand in terms of tech.
4. CAS- Dedicated CAS plane like SU-25 is a must. cheap, rugged and battle proven.
5. Airlift- C-17 acquired. Dunno if top brass would go for Il-76 upgrade.

Now we don't have that kinda of money to equip a +1million army so downsizing the army is it an option?

As regards to LCA well its not a dedicated CAS which can withstand slightest punishment like 23mm rounds etc.

I do wonder why IAF went for both Jaguar and MIG-27 during 80s when both planes were designed for more or less same roles. Smell fishy.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

[MENTION=15028]
SECONDLY and MORE IMPORTANTLY There is a HUGE Difference between FOC and a FULLY Operational fighter plane deployed at Forward air bases

It takes a Few years for that
IAF will have to devise tactics and combat doctrines AROUND LCA Tejas

And Tejas has to be FITTED in the existing squadrons and the various strike packages / fighter escorts for its optimum utilisation

We wont have stand alone Tejas squadrons

you mean the same wont apply to Rafale or EFT or whichever new fighter we induct in IAF

the same will apply to any new plane that is inducted in IAF

also

we will definitely see stand alone LCA sqds on bases

maybe IAF bases but definitley on naval Air bases - Porbunder, A&N Rajali etc the navy is planning on having 16-18 air and naval bases all naval bases will require air cover

why do you think navy is backing LCA MK2 more than IAF and will also support AMCA

why ? For developing own Naval Aviation Wing

mark this save this

 

[tarunraju]

Our LCA programme is bottlenecked by engine supply, and so one can never really expect an Indian LCA zerg-rush. I don't see LCA getting quantitative significance in this decade. Our best bet is making up our minds on MMRCA (i.e. resisting Eurofigher consortium's last minute price-cut gimmick, and weathering the political shit-storm that ensues after that), and hoping that Dassault lives up to its delivery targets. Rafale is formidable for close-air support.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Our LCA programme is bottlenecked by engine supply, and so one can never really expect an Indian LCA zerg-rush. I don't see LCA getting quantitative significance in this decade. Our best bet is making up our minds on MMRCA (i.e. resisting Eurofigher consortium's last minute price-cut gimmick, and weathering the political shit-storm that ensues after that), and hoping that Dassault lives up to its delivery targets. Rafale is formidable for close-air support.

scrap MMRCA

Buy Super su34MKi+Super su30MKI+LCA

if EFT is cheaper why not buy that ?

bofors is till alive today after so many years for 64 crores

how many crores for rafale 22+billion$ deal if EFT overlooked ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The days of rocket pods are gone, Its the time when precision strike matters and for Indian context at cheap ..

Tejas already passed that and fits the role, IRON FIST 2013 ..

1st weapons integration has only started

Teajas can carry whatever wespons we choose to integrate

do rafales carry rocket pods ?

if tejas has not been tested with rocket pods - it can be integrated and can carry not a big deal

 

[tarunraju]

scrap MMRCA

Buy Super su34MKi+Super su30MKI+LCA

if EFT is cheaper why not buy that ?

bofors is till alive today after so many years for 64 crores

how many crores for rafale 22+billion$ deal if EFT overlooked ?

EFT must be overlooked, because it's being seen in Delhi as a disruptive move by the consortium. Any party that's not clear about pricing up-front, and tosses up price-cuts after flunking a tender, cannot be trusted. EFT consortium has, by announcing these price-cuts after the competition, also made things uncomfortable for the political class. Now BJP has to convince the country (and the 9 PM presstitutes) over why it's sticking to Rafale (which is still the best option).

As to your second point, Su-34 isn't a medium-sized multirole fighter, and Super Su-30MKI has a long list of demerits that warranted MMRCA in the first place. We aren't buying smartphones on Amazon here.

And to answer your last one, EFT claims it will save India about 8,000 Cr. overall, with its new pricing. I think that's poppycock.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MMRCA nor any twin engine can give the sortie rate needed during war of attrition, attrition is there coz we are not up against a depended nation, This has to be kept in mind ..

That is the very reason IAF is more towards Tejas for near future needs so does this and last goverment ..

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

EFT must be overlooked, because it's being seen in Delhi as a disruptive move by the consortium. Any party that's not clear about pricing up-front, and tosses up price-cuts after flunking the competition, cannot be trusted. EFT consortium has, by announcing these price-cuts after the competition, also made things uncomfortable for the political class. Now BJP has to convince the country (and the 9 PM presstitutes) over why it's sticking to Rafale (which is still the best option).

As to your second point, Su-34 isn't a medium-sized multirole fighter, and Super Su-30MKI has a long list of demerits that warranted MMRCA in the first place. We aren't buying smartphones on Amazon here.

And to answer your last one, EFT claims it will save India about 8,000 Cr. overall, with its new pricing. I think that's poppycock.

they claim 20000 crore thats more than 3.5billion dollars serious money

when the MMRCA requirements were framed in 2001-2004

the 1st Su30MKI was not even delivered

even at the time of akrgil we did not have Su30 forget Mki

so you claim that Su30mki demerits forced MMRCA purchase does not wash

pl recheck your facts

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

EFT must be overlooked, because it's being seen in Delhi as a disruptive move by the consortium. Any party that's not clear about pricing up-front, and tosses up price-cuts after flunking a tender, cannot be trusted. EFT consortium has, by announcing these price-cuts after the competition, also made things uncomfortable for the political class. Now BJP has to convince the country (and the 9 PM presstitutes) over why it's sticking to Rafale (which is still the best option).

if EFT is offering 20000cr less than Rafale then ---- rafale

to be fair ask rafale to match the price


20000 cr is serious money lets take that