Tatra Trucks Bring $170m Kickbacks

[Yusuf]

Not everything goes right up!!

 

[Rahul Singh]

And Rs 750 crore is not just everything. Besides, each and every tender -- no matter how small it is in terms of money -- has to be conveyed to ministry in one form or other and documentation for record and scheduled audit are just few.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Tata motors is unable to demonstrate a vehicle which can be directly compared to Tatra trucks. No question of replacing Tatra trucks with Tata models, it would be like replacing an off-roader SUV with a street car. Folks the Indian Army use Ashok Leyland Trucks as well but Tatra is a class apart in capabilities for which we don't have a desi alternative atm.

I think you missed out on TATA LPTA 3138 8x8 which with 18 ton payload, 275 KW/370HP power and 40* greadeability outperforms TATRA T815 ( BEML produced tactical workhorse) in every key aspect.

 

[Payeng]

I think you missed out on TATA LPTA 3138 8x8 which with 18 ton payload, 275 KW/370HP power and 40* greadeability outperforms TATRA T815 ( BEML produced tactical workhorse) in every key aspect.

TATA never outperformed a TATRA truck, what you are talking about is a paper specefication. What I am talking about is proven offroad capabilities, as I have mentioned 'comparing a road going car to an off-roader SUV'. TATRA have a reputation for its off-road capabilities with exceptional chassis-axle design, robust engine and capabilities to perform in the most difficult terrain, while TATA is known for it commercial success and still have to prove it offroad capabilities for trucks.

here is an independently suspended swinging half-axles chassis design of TATRA truck

I don't have any image for the axle-chassis design for TATA LPTA 3138 but I believe it will be based on the traditional commercial vehicle single linked axle design, not an off-road performer chassis axle design (not sure please check)

TATRA is also a popular choice in Dakar Rallies.....
You can also search for more of TATRA Trucks in Dakar Rally on youtube where it shows its excellent off-road capabilities in real times.

Taking an example of motorcycling industry when it comes to street use(plus street racing) Honda have a very popular image in the market and when it comes to motocross, enduro racing and other non street legal use of mobikes KTM is very well demanded. (KTM is also very popular in Dakar Rallies)

Good to see TATA taking initiative for multi role heavy duty defense vehicles , being an Indian even I would like to see TATRA vehicles being replacing by TATA's. But I belive TATA still have a long to go to prove itself that it is capable of producing such a product.

What say?

 

[Rahul Singh]

OKKKKKKKKK! Nothing denying that TATRA is a establishment brand. But that doesn't change the fact that TATA LPTA 3138 is performance winner and defeats T815 hands down in specs. As far as offroad capabilities are concerned well TATA claims 3138 to be extreme performer in that aspect with all wheel drive matching performance of tacked vehicles. However despite trying hard, i could not find much information on its axle design.

By the way what made you think those specs to be just of paper value? TATA is no less on reputation and is a steady and long term supplier of logistic vehicles to Army. It is now that they want to compete with T815 in 8x8 tactical transport/mobility segment and TATA with its international chain is no short on technology to do so successfully. Besides, it is other thing that TATA is not just a TRUCK supplier but in fact also bidding for development and manufacturing of FICVs for Army as well as 4x4 and 8x8 armored troop carriers.

 

[Payeng]

OKKKKKKKKK! Nothing denying that TATRA is a establishment brand. But that doesn't change the fact that TATA LPTA 3138 is performance winner and defeats T815 hands down in specs. And by the way what made you think those specs to be just of paper value? TATA is no less on reputation and is a steady and long term supplier of logistic vehicles to Army. It is now that they want to compete with T815 in 8x8 tactical transport/mobility segment and TATA with its international chain is no short on technology to do so successfully. Besides, it is other thing that TATA is not just a TRUCK supplier but in fact also bidding for development and manufacturing of FICVs for Army as well as 4x4 and 8x8 armored troop carriers. To my belief these examples very well shows how capable TATA is and why there is every reason to believe that LPTA 3138 is going to give T815 run for money in Indian market at least. After all anything which is established today was once new.

You are no where getting my point.

ok to be simple compare this two suspension system and make some logic
A layout of TATRA axle-suspension

with a possible axle-suspension system of TATA truck, as I dont have an image of TATA suspension system, I am forwarding this image, but the basic layout should be similar

I am no way talking about brand value or mere BHP figures.

 

[hitesh]

Tata 8x8 Truck Mounted Air Defence Gun | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

[hitesh]

may be ASHOK LEYLAND was testing with its new 8x8 army truck i saw its picture long time ago but can't find it now

 

[Payeng]

may be ASHOK LEYLAND was testing with its new 8x8 army truck i saw its picture long time ago but can't find it now

This is not a real multi-axle truck from AL, but such image exhibits domestic Indian companies contribution and presence in heavy defense sector

P.S: seems you are new don't forget the introduction thread

 

[Payeng]

let me help with your later edited part..

OKKKKKKKKK! Nothing denying that TATRA is a establishment brand. But that doesn't change the fact that TATA LPTA 3138 is performance winner and defeats T815 hands down in specs. As far as offroad capabilities are concerned well TATA claims 3138 to be extreme performer in that aspect with all wheel drive matching performance of tacked vehicles. However despite trying hard, i could not find much information on its axle design.

By the way what made you think those specs to be just of paper value? TATA is no less on reputation and is a steady and long term supplier of logistic vehicles to Army. It is now that they want to compete with T815 in 8x8 tactical transport/mobility segment and TATA with its international chain is no short on technology to do so successfully. Besides, it is other thing that TATA is not just a TRUCK supplier but in fact also bidding for development and manufacturing of FICVs for Army as well as 4x4 and 8x8 armored troop carriers.

As far as offroad capabilities are concerned well TATA claims 3138 to be extreme performer in that aspect with all wheel drive matching performance of tacked vehicles.

The claim of extreme performance is as per paper only, no review available, no road test, no footage, just a 'my daddy strongest attitude' donot make it an 'extreme performer'.

What I mean to explain is whatever the company advertise need not be the fact, in real time it may fail to live up to its expectation.

In the absence of available data my research is based on why TATA is known for: For its commercial success only, and not known for manufacturing performance trucks that can gaze through most difficult terrain.

However despite trying hard, i could not find much information on its axle design.

Regarding the axle-chassis design, data is available about what TATRA truck employees, and regarding TATA trucks the only available information available to me from its website is:

-TATA LPTA 3138 is Built on heavy duty commercial vehicle aggregates, its modular chassis can be adapted to different applications.
-Traditional chassis frame concept


Not knowing what modular chassis means(ladder chassiss???) atleast we know what a traditional commercial TATA trucks applies as an axle: a dependent axle system.

BUT, for your kind information I am not contesting only for the axle design, what I am contesting is TATA never demonstrated a vehicle: test drive, video or a direct comparision in real time, in this class (atleast to general public knowledge), and you are saying TATA LPTA 3138 can outperform a TATRA T815, just with the help of an advertisement!!!


As for an example, just look at this very short TV commercial and see what this particular product wants to project itself as capable of ....
Was it really attainable later? no

let me tell you that the inability of live upto its assured capability as per the advertisements is the reason why this particular model have meet its doom.( anyways not necessary regarding this tropic, FYI only)

It was just an advertisement of paper spec but failed miserably in real time.

PLUS we dont know what Army really requires in its test criteria so argument based on asssumption would be illegitimate, but my research says TATA and TATRA cannot be considered comparable vehicles if some one thinks Why TATRA and not TATA.

As far as offroad capabilities are concerned well TATA claims 3138 to be extreme performer in that aspect with all wheel drive matching performance of tacked vehicles.

Well claimed now it needs to be proved

As far as offroad capabilities are concerned well TATA claims 3138 to be extreme performer in that aspect with all wheel drive matching performance of tacked vehicles

Do you mean by tacked vehicle?

TATA is no less on reputation and is a steady and long term supplier of logistic vehicles to Army. It is now that they want to compete with T815 in 8x8 tactical transport/mobility segment and TATA with its international chain is no short on technology to do so successfully. Besides, it is other thing that TATA is not just a TRUCK supplier but in fact also bidding for development and manufacturing of FICVs for Army as well as 4x4 and 8x8 armored troop carriers.

Do you think that I am against success of TATA or indigenous automobile industry

 

[hitesh]

TATA LPTA 3138 8x8

http://www.defencesolutions-tatamotors.com/pdf/tata-8x8.pdf


Its suspension are no match to TATRA's

 

[hitesh]

 

[hitesh]

 

[hitesh]

this is some thing the US army uses

 

[Payeng]

Superb performance by Tatra T815-7, its back bone tube frame acts as a chassis member other then performing as an axle assembly.
Hope some day TATA or AL come up with such fantastic machines.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

The Tatra has an Air cooled engine and i wonder how it does in places like Thar desert, where the heat goes above 48C.

Now we all know why the Arjun,ALH etc, bites dust even when they win the competition. Kick backs is what keeps the Indian defense industry 80% imported not our own ability to make.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

You are saying that top people in the hierarchy --way upto the MoD-- don't have share in it, in other words are completely unaware of the working and that their vigilance and audit do not cross over? As far as i know be it issuing of tender or day to day purchasing, corruption at every level in some share has its way all upto to ministry including the minister.

I recall a dialogue from movie Rang De Basanti " Ye Hindustan Hai, Yeha Barati ke Sath Band Baje Wale Bhi khate Hai". Even a tender for buying electric switchs for railway coach repair yard has a big share of Ministry and suitcase of varied sizes are regularly dispatched by Zonal heads and yes all these 'gool-maal' is done with the consent of Ministry. Top it of, it's the ministry and bureaucrats who create the loopholes using which lower ranks make money if they are willing, if not then they are forced to raise money and dispatch to higher ranks.

Only large tenders have Minister kick backs, small and medium sized tenders dont have kick backs.

 

[Rahul Singh]

You are no where getting my point.

ok to be simple compare this two suspension system and make some logic
A layout of TATRA axle-suspension

with a possible axle-suspension system of TATA truck, as I dont have an image of TATA suspension system, I am forwarding this image, but the basic layout should be similar

I am no way talking about brand value or mere BHP figures.

Like i stated in edited post i could not find much information on axle design so i can't compare TATRA design to your speculated design of LPTA 3138. Also, off road performance of TATRA is established, i did never denied that. All i said, TATA 8x8 outperforms T815 in every key aspect (of course as per the brochure specs). Besides, since LPTA 3138 has been put forward by TATA as a direct competitor to T815 in Indian market, i have a reason to believe that its overal performence (including off road performermence) is matching or better than BEML built T815, despite i will let the time tell. Regardless i don't think that off road performence is exclusive to TATRA's unique design, MAN CAT A1 features rigid axle and leaf suspension yet it is highly mobile in all terrain.

let me help with your later edited part..

The claim of extreme performance is as per paper only, no review available, no road test, no footage, just a 'my daddy strongest attitude' donot make it an 'extreme performer'.

In the absence of available data my research is based on why TATA is known for: For its commercial success only, and not known for manufacturing performance trucks that can gaze through most difficult terrain.

Not quite. There is a difference between an advertisement targeting first time bikers and one(fact file) for military. Commercial advertisements are prepared so that company can dupe customers without lying and ' * ' = "in ideal conditions" written in such a way that a naive civilian can't ever pick out. Now is that the case with military? I think not. Everybody knows military buys after carrying out grueling tests not by referring advertisements/fact file. So where is the gain from preparing unrealistic false claiming advertisements? In contrast, these false claims can only diminish the chances of bagging any order in addition to loosing faith of home military (which in most cases is the long time costumer). Now can one say a reputed company like TATA -- with such large stake -- will ever make such childish mistake? I think it answers all. TATA LPTA 3138 fact figures should be very close to actual.

Regarding the axle-chassis design, data is available about what TATRA truck employees, and regarding TATA trucks the only available information available to me from its website is:

-TATA LPTA 3138 is Built on heavy duty commercial vehicle aggregates, its modular chassis can be adapted to different applications.
-Traditional chassis frame concept


Not knowing what modular chassis means(ladder chassiss???) atleast we know what a traditional commercial TATA trucks applies as an axle: a dependent axle system.

Yes it is build on commercial vehicle aggregate. But that commercial vehicle is not just a road rider but a 8x8 off road terrain rider called 'TATA Prima 3138K' developed specially for Dam construction. Needless to mention about type of terrain possible DAM sites features.

BUT, for your kind information I am not contesting only for the axle design, what I am contesting is TATA never demonstrated a vehicle: test drive, video or a direct comparision in real time, in this class (atleast to general public knowledge), and you are saying TATA LPTA 3138 can outperform a TATRA T815, just with the help of an advertisement!!!

This is India and we are world known as PR Idiots, still i don't blame TATA. The '3138 family of vehicles were launched only one and half years ago and unavailability of videos and revives is quite normal.

On outperforming. Well yes TATA 3138 can carry 2t more load and packs ~ 20% powerful engine than BEML built T850 VVNC. For mobility, i don't think mobility is exclusive to backbone chassis-swinging axles only, world over top militaries are served by trucks like Renault Kerex 8x8, MAN CAT A1 etc which are build on ladder chassis and rigid axle.

In the absence of available data my research is based on why TATA is known for: For its commercial success only, and not known for manufacturing performance trucks that can gaze through most difficult terrain.

Sometime ago there was a company called TELCO now it is called TATA Motors. I think things have changed, TATA through its world wide chain -- because of acquisitions and joint ventures -- is very capable of fielding all kinds of vehicles and Prima series specially 3138K and LPTA 3138/3142 is just the beginning.

As for an example, just look at this very short TV commercial and see what this particular product wants to project itself as capable of ....
Was it really attainable later? no

let me tell you that the inability of live upto its assured capability as per the advertisements is the reason why this particular model have meet its doom.( anyways not necessary regarding this tropic, FYI only)

It was just an advertisement of paper spec but failed miserably in real time.

Like i said earlier there is a difference between advertisement for civilian customers (in said case targeting first time bikers) and that for a seasoned military.

PLUS we dont know what Army really requires in its test criteria so argument based on asssumption would be illegitimate, but my research says TATA and TATRA cannot be considered comparable vehicles if some one thinks Why TATRA and not TATA.

Surely we don't know, but one thing we do know for sure that now a days military is giving a lot of importance to life cycle cost over lifespan and TATA LPTA 3138/3142 unlike TARTA T850 VVNC is build upon commercial aggregate meaning easily available parts at cheaper price. Besides for all these years neither Army nor DRDO had any option other than going for imported trucks, but now they have.

Do you mean by tacked vehicle?

Sorry for typo i meant 'TRACKED' vehicles.

 

[Payeng]

Like i stated in edited post i could not find much information on axle design so i can't compare TATRA design to your speculated design of LPTA 3138. Also, off road performance of TATRA is established, i did never denied that. All i said, TATA 8x8 outperforms T815 in every key aspect (of course as per the brochure specs). Besides, since LPTA 3138 has been put forward by TATA as a direct competitor to T815 in Indian market, i have a reason to believe that its overal performence (including off road performermence) is matching or better than BEML built T815, despite i will let the time tell. Regardless i don't think that off road performence is exclusive to TATRA's unique design, MAN CAT A1 features rigid axle and leaf suspension yet it is highly mobile in all terrain.

BHP not might be an issue but greadeability might be, I thought maximum torque is important for a truck which both this trucks are not advertising, regarding axle system, rigid axle also have a good reputation for off roading, but independent axle system are known for better ride quality.

Not quite. There is a difference between an advertisement targeting first time bikers and one(fact file) for military. Commercial advertisements are prepared so that company can dupe customers without lying and ' * ' = "in ideal conditions" written in such a way that a naive civilian can't ever pick out. Now is that the case with military? I think not. Everybody knows military buys after carrying out grueling tests not by referring advertisements/fact file. So where is the gain from preparing unrealistic false claiming advertisements? In contrast, these false claims can only diminish the chances of bagging any order in addition to loosing faith of home military (which in most cases is the long time costumer). Now can one say a reputed company like TATA -- with such large stake -- will ever make such childish mistake? I think it answers all. TATA LPTA 3138 fact figures should be very close to actual.

You missed my point, that particular model have been discontinued,it was a failure in marketing strategy as well as engineering (reliability but not that fuel inefficiency), what I am saying before is it failed to live upto expectation for the general public it was an engineering failure.

Still in market but for a different market section, it failed to hit the fuel economy class due to its own engineering shortfalls.

Yes it is build on commercial vehicle aggregate. But that commercial vehicle is not just a road rider but a 8x8 off road terrain rider called 'TATA Prima 3138K' developed specially for Dam construction. Needless to mention about type of terrain possible DAM sites features.

good point.

This is India and we are world known as PR Idiots, still i don't blame TATA. The '3138 family of vehicles were launched only one and half years ago and unavailability of videos and revives is quite normal.

Not that if you see the the availability of test drive data of even the Mahindra AXE which was just a prototype, later the project being scrapped and vehicle dismantled after its failure in army trails.
Believe me you will even find test drive article of Arjun MBT by the automobile enthusiast which is definitely not for public consumption, they hunt down everything from a Bovin powered cart to Tanks to satisfy their curiosity.

But not to trust their analysis when it is a tank

On outperforming. Well yes TATA 3138 can carry 2t more load and packs ~ 20% powerful engine than BEML built T850 VVNC. For mobility, i don't think mobility is exclusive to backbone chassis-swinging axles only, world over top militaries are served by trucks like Renault Kerex 8x8, MAN CAT A1 etc which are build on ladder chassis and rigid axle.

As I mentioned above power is not the sole concern for a vehicle, in an army tender their should be a mention of minimum power requirement, any thing more then that is not considered as an added extra point but as an added extra only, but ride quality might be a matter of concern, while moving strategic weapons through difficult terrain.

Sometime ago there was a company called TELCO now it is called TATA Motors. I think things have changed, TATA through its world wide chain -- because of acquisitions and joint ventures -- is very capable of fielding all kinds of vehicles and Prima series specially 3138K and LPTA 3138/3142 is just the beginning.

Not related to this thread but I would expect Tata to come up with a vehicle for Army LSV requirement, with technical expertise from its Land Rover division, which is known for capable off roading vehicle and it also have military class vehicle serving under British Army.

Surely we don't know, but one thing we do know for sure that now a days military is giving a lot of importance to life cycle cost over lifespan and TATA LPTA 3138/3142 unlike TARTA T850 VVNC is build upon commercial aggregate meaning easily available parts at cheaper price. Besides for all these years neither Army nor DRDO had any option other than going for imported trucks, but now they have.

spare parts availability should be a plus point for TATA while ride quality should be a plus point for the TATRA.

I hope TATA give direct competition to TATRA rather than offering an alternative option, indigenous vehicle will be good, but a compromise wont be.

 

[Armand2REP]

TATRA is also a popular choice in Dakar Rallies.....
You can also search for more of TATRA Trucks in Dakar Rally on youtube where it shows its excellent off-road capabilities in real times.

Taking an example of motorcycling industry when it comes to street use(plus street racing) Honda have a very popular image in the market and when it comes to motocross, enduro racing and other non street legal use of mobikes KTM is very well demanded. (KTM is also very popular in Dakar Rallies)

What say?

Dakar Rallies are based on company, they don't get to pick what truck they want to drive unless they switch teams. The Tsar of Dakar (won most of the rallies over the last decade) drives for Kamaz, it is a rugged truck but outdated and unreliable over time. Chagin could win in any of the capable trucks because it is by far the driving skills that matter more than the truck. Monsieur Dakar won in Tatra the preceding decade but Loprais loses when the Tsar entered the scene. Kamaz trucks are getting a major injection of German technology which will bring them to modern standards... Tatra?