Tata Motors wants to build battle tanks

[AnantS]

No they don't. FPT (Fiat PowerTrain) has an engine factory in Ranjangaon (Pune dist), that's dozens of miles away from Tata Motors' factory in Pimpri (Pune dist), where Vistas, Bolts, Indicas, and Indigos are assembled.

Err No... Bolt and Zest are being built in Ranjangaon. Only Vista had option of TDI and MJD engines. VIsta is getting phased out.

But they already have that engine, their own 1.4L CR4. It's simpler than 1.3L MJD, and is cheaper to build. Further, the 1.4L CR4 engine offers better fuel-efficiency than 1.3L MJD.

Tata has always offered two engine options for of its passengers: TDI & MJD. Guess which sold better? Hence the preference. The former has always been lapped up by taxi market because initial purchase cost of vehicle is less.

The so-called VariCor engine has block and camshaft design borrowed from VM Motori, Italy. The only truly-Tata engine for MPVs/SUVs is the 3.0L CR4.

The Varicor is nothing but name of Dicor VTT. And this engine was developed by Tata using AVL consultancy(so did Mahindra for their mHawak engines)

So my point exactly, Tata doesn't even trust its own engines.

Or its the Market which does not trust? And its profitable for Tata to get off the shelf Cummins Engines are being used by almost every major truck player in India(AMW, AL), barring BB, MAN,VOLVO

 

[tarunraju]

Err No... Bolt and Zest are being built in Ranjangaon. Only Vista had option of TDI and MJD engines. VIsta is getting phased out.

Wrong again. Bolt is built at the Pimpri plant, not the Ranjangaon plant. The Ranjangaon plant of Tata Motors is not in the same plot as FPT. The Ranjangaon plant builds Zest, but Zest uses the 90 PS (1.3L MJD-VGT) motor, not the 1.3L MJD-FGT motor which I was comparing to the 1.4L CR4 in my original argument.

Tata has always offered two engine options for of its passengers: TDI & MJD. Guess which sold better?

Hence the preference. The former has always been lapped up by taxi market because initial purchase cost of vehicle is less.

Apples and oranges. 1.4L TDI offered by Tata is a Bharat Stage III compliant motor, and offered only in non-urban markets, because you cannot register a BS3 vehicle in urban markets. It's offered because it's a cheaper motor. Taxi cab operators buy TDI options because they're cheaper, and register them outside cities.

The 1.4L CR4, on the other hand, is a Bharat Stage IV compliant motor, and is sold in urban markets. So you can compare CR4 to the 75 PS 1.3L MJD-FGT.

Don't confuse 1.4L CR4 with 1.4L TDI. They're not the same motor.

The Varicor is nothing but name of Dicor VTT. And this engine was developed by Tata using AVL consultancy(so did Mahindra for their mHawak engines)

Like Honeywell (which sells turbochargers for Tata's Revotron petrol motor), AVL is a consultancy. The underlying design is VM-Motori sourced.

Or its the Market which does not trust? And its profitable for Tata to get off the shelf Cummins Engines are being used by almost every major truck player in India(AMW, AL), barring BB, MAN,VOLVO

Thanks once again for reinforcing my point that Tata doesn't trust _its own_ engines.

 

[pmaitra]

@tarunraju, is the 1.4L CR4 a diesel engine?

 

[tarunraju]

@tarunraju, is the 1.4L CR4 a diesel engine?

Yes. CR4 stands for common-rail in-line4.

 

[Zebra]

Tata doesn't trust _its own_ engines.

Does any of Indian company has their very own engine in the first place, I wonder.

 

[tarunraju]

Does any of Indian company has their very own engine in the first place, I wonder.

Tata does. The CR4 family of engines is indigenously developed. It comes in small-car (1.4L), MPV/SUV (3.0L) and heavy commercial vehicle sizes.

 

[Zebra]

Tata does. The CR4 family of engines is indigenously developed. It comes in small-car (1.4L), MPV/SUV (3.0L) and heavy commercial vehicle sizes.

So that credit also goes to TATA.

 

[manindra]

At the very most, TATA could make engines. But I don't see them making entire MBTs. But then they don't trust their own engines, either.

Here's an example. Tata makes its own BS4-compliant small car diesel engine, the 1.4L CR4. This engine powers Indica eV2 and Indigo eCS. Yet the company sources 1.3L MultiJet engine for many of its cars. 1.4L CR4 offers higher fuel efficiency and max power of 71 BHP (compared to 75 BHP on 1.3L MultiJet-FGT). They could have used CR4 engine on at least Indica Vista and Bolt, which has nearly the same power figures and higher mileage, but nooo, they had to source costlier Italian engines, and send some of your money to Rome.

Its about efficiency.
Fiat 1.3 Ltr engine is good fuel fuel efficiency & power with less vibration compared to 1.4 Ltr CR4 (You can simply feel the difference by sitting both engine equipped cars) as TATA does not want its VISTA & Bolt also get 'Taxi' Badge like indica (first generation).
In Bolt & Zest they use their own Petrol engine (as even a noisy Petrol engine would be considered silent compared to Diesel engine.)

 

[manindra]

Greece begins ELVO assets sale

http://www.janes.com/article/44943/greece-begins-elvo-assets-sale


ELVO of Greece signs Egyptian agreement despite liquidation

http://www.janes.com/article/51966/elvo-of-greece-signs-egyptian-agreement-despite-liquidation

ELVO is a Greek vehicle manufacturer based in Thessaloniki, Greece. They are producing Leopard 2 Hel MBTs for Hellenic army under licence of Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), Germany. Tata Motors should buy their whole production line or 51% stake from the Greek Government.

They are merely assembler as our HVF Awadi is many time capable than then.
Well for Tanks MOD should merge HVF Awadi in BEML as BEML is behemoth in heavy machinery just screwing BEML management would improve their performance in defence sector.
TATA can't compete BEML in heavy machinery.

 

[manindra]

Does any of Indian company has their very own engine in the first place, I wonder.

TATA, Mahindra, Ashok Leyland, Cotton Greaves, Kirloskar & BEML manufacture their own engine.
But in Passenger car you need less noisy engine so developer take consultant of AVL, Austria to fine tune it.e lag seriously in fuel Injection technology which is nerve of engine.

 

[tarunraju]

Its about efficiency.
Fiat 1.3 Ltr engine is good fuel fuel efficiency & power with less vibration compared to 1.4 Ltr CR4 (You can simply feel the difference by sitting both engine equipped cars) as TATA does not want its VISTA & Bolt also get 'Taxi' Badge like indica (first generation).

1.4L CR4 based cars offer higher fuel-efficiency than 1.3L MJD. While there are no vehicles that offer both options, you could compare a Vista to an Indigo eCS (similar kerb weight). The Vista offers claimed mileage of 22.5 kmpl, while the eCS offers 25 kmpl claimed.

In Bolt & Zest they use their own Petrol engine (as even a noisy Petrol engine would be considered silent compared to Diesel engine.)

That's because the 1.2L Revotron is not a new engine. It's the same old-school 8-valve/SOHC iron block from the engine that drives Indica Xeta, mated with a variable turbine turbo that has live-mapping (so called "multi-drive"), and a BSIV catalytic converter. Yet it offers better power/torque figures than any 1.2L free-breathing 16V/DOHC/VVT engines from the competition.

 

[no smoking]

R&D is any will be taken with help of DRDO/VRDE, just as in case of Kestrel. Which is DRDO/VRDE helped Tata's with design/mechanics and hydraulics suspension.

Well, providing assistance in designing is one thing, transferring completely related knowledge accumulated in past decades funded by government budget is another thing.

 

[manindra]

1.4L CR4 based cars offer higher fuel-efficiency than 1.3L MJD. While there are no vehicles that offer both options, you could compare a Vista to an Indigo eCS (similar kerb weight). The Vista offers claimed mileage of 22.5 kmpl, while the eCS offers 25 kmpl claimed.

But old indica gain their Taxi badge due their noisy 1.4 ltr CR4 engine which Tata wants to wash away with Vista.
You can simply take note of noise & vibration of engine by sitting both in Indica & Indica vista.

That's because the 1.2L Revotron is not a new engine. It's the same old-school 8-valve/SOHC iron block from the engine that drives Indica Xeta, mated with a variable turbine turbo that has live-mapping (so called "multi-drive"), and a BSIV catalytic converter. Yet it offers better power/torque figures than any 1.2L free-breathing 16V/DOHC/VVT engines from the competition.

Their is no rocket science in building engine blocks, main part is fuel injection which they get from foreign collaboration & thanks to AVL, Austria for fine tuning of vibration & sound.

 

[tarunraju]

But old indica gain their Taxi badge due their noisy 1.4 ltr CR4 engine which Tata wants to wash away with Vista.
You can simply take note of noise & vibration of engine by sitting both in Indica & Indica vista.

Don't confuse Indica V2 with Indica eV2. The former runs a TDI-BS3 motor, which has bad clatter. The latter has acceptable NVH levels.

 

[manindra]

Don't confuse Indica V2 with Indica eV2. The former runs a TDI-BS3 motor, which has bad clatter. The latter has acceptable NVH levels.

I know but 1.3 Ltr Fiat engine still lot smoother than this.

 

[tarunraju]

I know but 1.3 Ltr Fiat engine still lot smoother than this.

No it's not. Go to the nearest Tata showroom and test-drive both Indica eV2 and Vista/Bolt for free. NVH levels are in the same league. The "e" designates CR4 engine. The Indica V2 has the clattery TDI engine.

 

[manindra]

No it's not. Go to the nearest Tata showroom and test-drive both Indica eV2 and Vista/Bolt for free. NVH levels are in the same league. The "e" designates CR4 engine. The Indica V2 has the clattery TDI engine.

My friend have vista, thanks to Ola cab I was able to take ride on ev2.
Older generation Indica with TDI is out of competition.

 

[vikasjain]

why cant drdo share their r.d work with private players and work with them to have better result product.as they have done in the case of lakshay pilotless product giving their tech to l&t .

 

[AnantS]

Well, providing assistance in designing is one thing, transferring completely related knowledge accumulated in past decades funded by government budget is another thing.

What another thing? both things have happening & has happened in the past. It will happen more vigorously in future. If you happen to read this forum more keenly, then you would not have missed a recent example of same where DRDO ToT of Lakshya PTA to L&T

 

[no smoking]

What another thing? both things have happening & has happened in the past. It will happen more vigorously in future. If you happen to read this forum more keenly, then you would not have missed a recent example of same where DRDO ToT of Lakshya PTA to L&T

Please look into your own example: DRDO is transferring the production tech not the designing know-how.
Did DRDO give out the knowledge of aerodynamic accumulated in past 3 decades? No!
Did DRDO give out the experience of structural designing in its previous projects? No!
.......
The list can go on and on. All these are the keys that your Tata need to start developing their own military equipment. All these know-how took DRDO decades to accumulate and cost billions dollars public money.

Without all these knowledge, the best Tata can do is working as production of DRDO.