Tank Guns and Ammunition

[Kunal Biswas]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Cold War Era Russian 152mm M-69 "Taran" (Battering Ram) Gun

This rifled gun was developed by the OKB-9 (now Spetstekhnika) design bureau in Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) in 1960 and was mounted on an experimental vehicle Ob'ekt 120 (chief designer G.S.Efimov). This gun stands out for its length and power and was originally envisioned as a maingun of a perspective heavy tank that never appeared.

This is probably the largest dedicated antitank gun ever built.

Calibre 152 mm Rifled
Breech type ?
Firing mechanism ?
Ordnance length 9045 mm
Ordnance mass ?
Barrel life ?
Max Chamber Pressure ?


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Other Unknown Russian 152mm..

Object 292

The Object 292 test vehicle was produced by the Kirov Special Machinery Plant (Special Machinery, Limited), and the scientists at VNIITransmash. On the chassis of the T-80U they installed a new turret, a 152mm cannon, and some other parts. The turret and cannon were installed and in 1991, experiments began at Rzhev Poligon. Positive results were achieved.Ballistically, the smoothbore 152mm was far superior to the 125mm, though the chamber dimensions were not that much bigger. A new combat compartment was also developed, which could be installed on T-80 tanks without modifications to the main chassis structure.In September 1990 the tank was ready, and in 1991 on the Rzhev range have begun fire testing facility.All work was conducted under the leadership of chief designer, NS Popov. His deputy, twice winner of State Award, AK Dzyavgo, said: "We agreed with the Director of Central Research Institute of Nikolai Nikolaevich Hudkovsh on the implementation of ideas to develop a 152.4 mm in caliber.

 

[methos]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

1. Barrel life of Rh 120 L/44 is 1,500 EFC, same as L/55 and M256.
2. Maximum chamber pressure of Rh 120 L/44 and M256 is 7,100 bar
3.The barrel per se of the Rh 120 L/44 weighs less than the barrel of the M256 due to the use different materials... why does the Rh 120 then weigh more than M256? May I ask where you took the weight values from? Do they include the gun mantlet?
4. Jane's reported that the L/55 gun can support 500 bar more chamber pressure
5. IMI tank gun has 7,250 bar maximum chamber pressure
6. Ukranian KBA3 tank gun has a maximum chamber pressure of 6,500 kgf/cm², which is only 6,374 bar
7. Likewise the KBM1M tank gun has a maximum pressure of 7,200 kgf/cm², which is only 7,060 bar
8. The image of the 140 mm armed tank in the Swiss museum shows a Pz 87 WE with a RUAG 140 mm tank gun, which does not fire NATO 140 mm rounds, but shorter ones designed for human loaders.

Is the Indian tank gun really that bad? Worst barrel life, smallest pressure limit and only 48 calibers long?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Russian 2A83 152 mm Tank Gun

Nizhny Tagil New Main Battle Tank, This vehicle is intended to become the new Russian MBT and was planned to enter service in 1994, but due to lack of financing it is still on the testing grounds (according to some reports it has cleared the testing phase around March 1999).The gun will be a 152mm smoothbore tank gun/ATGM launcher. The development of this system started as far back as end of the fifties for the heavy tanks (originally a rifled gun, probably M-69). The project was revived in the eighties and the gun was significantly redesigned. Even with ordinary powders a very high initial velocity of an APFSDS projectile is achieved. Some reports claim 152mm smoothbore gun that is carried by an elusive N.Tagil MBT is derived from 152mm M-69 "Taran" .

Calibre 152 mm Smoothbore
Breech type ?
Firing mechanism ?
Ordnance length 9045 mm
Ordnance mass ?
Barrel life ?
Max Chamber Pressure ?


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Rendered T-95..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

1. Barrel life of Rh 120 L/44 is 1,500 EFC, same as L/55 and M256.
2. Maximum chamber pressure of Rh 120 L/44 and M256 is 7,100 bar
3.The barrel per se of the Rh 120 L/44 weighs less than the barrel of the M256 due to the use different materials... why does the Rh 120 then weigh more than M256? May I ask where you took the weight values from? Do they include the gun mantlet?

4. Jane's reported that the L/55 gun can support 500 bar more chamber pressure
5. IMI tank gun has 7,250 bar maximum chamber pressure
6. Ukranian KBA3 tank gun has a maximum chamber pressure of 6,500 kgf/cm², which is only 6,374 bar
7. Likewise the KBM1M tank gun has a maximum pressure of 7,200 kgf/cm², which is only 7,060 bar
8. The image of the 140 mm armed tank in the Swiss museum shows a Pz 87 WE with a RUAG 140 mm tank gun, which does not fire NATO 140 mm rounds, but shorter ones designed for human loaders.

1.
a.I have read L44 have worst barrel life with new gen rounds that is 260rnd, can you give me a link where it says L44 have 1500 efc,
b.Besides the the gun is less thicker than L55 ( 130mm longer than L44 ) cannot have more than a 1000kg weight, hence it life is lower than L55..

2.
7100bars may be for M256 but need proof on L44 having same chamber pressure..

3.
Yes, the weight is not of the barrel but whole gun

4.5.8
Updated


Regarding 6 & 7 names of the guns dont match.. ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Is the Indian tank gun really that bad? Worst barrel life, smallest pressure limit and only 48 calibers long?

Chamber pressure

I have given the data clearly says 8000bars at max..

proof pressure / safe pressure 6120bars..

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Caliber

If calculate in maths of 48 caliber is 576cm

Arjun Gun barrel length is 605cm to be a little more than 50cal..

How is 48caliber ?

----------------------------------------------

Barrel Life:


Coz its a Rifled not smooth-bore..


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Indian Gun is good with max chamber pressure of 8000bars, of 50+caliber and in Rifled gun catagory it have 500rnd barrel life..

Not bad for a Rifled Gun from 80s..

 

[methos]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

1.
a.I have read L44 have worst barrel life with new gen rounds that is 260rnd, can you give me a link where it says L44 have 1500 efc,
b.Besides the the gun is less thicker than L55 ( 130mm longer than L44 ) cannot have more than a 1000kg weight, hence it life is lower than L55..

Really? I recommend you to take a look into literature and not to come up with some dubious informations from self-published websites. If you want a link and not the title of a book: here.
260 rounds is realistic, for 120 mm DM 53 the German round with the highest barrel wear. 120 mm DM 63 is in the area of 400 - 600 rounds per barrel and for non-KE rounds it is 1,500. You are aware that EFC is a way of measuring via index? M829 equals 3 EFC, M829A1 equals 4 EFC, DM 53 equals probably 6 EFC. I originally also did not know the difference between EFC and real ammunition, but I was told different by literature and people in the internet.
On the 2A46M tank gun used on the T-72M1 (including Indians) barrel life was 600 - 800 EFC or 100 - 200 APFSDS.

Regarding the weight difference between L/44 and L/55: If "the whole gun system" also includes the mantlet (which is thicker armoured on Leopard 2A6) then 600 kg of the 1,000 kg difference could be part of the thicker armour.

2.
7100bars may be for M256 but need proof on L44 having same chamber pressure..

Really? Did you read any book about German tank guns and technology or the U.S. M256? According to Rolf Hilmes' "Kampfpanzer Entwicklungen der Nachkriegszeit" page 34 the Rheinmetall 120 mm gun has a maximum pressure of 7,100 bar. According to Steve J. Zaloga (M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982 -1992) and R. P. Hunnicutt (Abrams A History of the American Main Battle Tank) the U.S. version of the Rh 120, the M256 does have the same performance; it is just simplified.

Regarding 6 & 7 names of the guns dont match.. ?

Just a few posts above:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-present-future-2.html#post539738
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-present-future-2.html#post539751

I have given the data clearly says 8000bars at max..
[...]
Indian Gun is good with max chamber pressure of 8000bars, of 50+caliber and in Rifled gun catagory it have 500rnd barrel life..

Is that so? Then please provide your data. You wrote that "[t]he gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa" - this means that the gun has a maximum safe pressure of 6,120 bar, while it is autofregatted using a maximum pressure of 8,000 bar. It seems that you do not know how autofreggating is done, during autofregatting the barrel (and chamber) are under extremly pressure, which is higher than the maximum (safe) pressure of the later system. According to Rolf Hilmes (the book I mentioned above) the Rh 120 L/44 is autofregatted with a maximum pressure of 10,000 bar! Still the maximum (safe/operating) pressure of the gun afterwards is only 7,100 bar.

If calculate in maths of 48 caliber is 576cm

Arjun Gun barrel length is 605cm to be a little more than 50cal..

How is 48caliber ?

There are different definitions of "barrel length". Some countries meassure the whole bore (meaning barrel and the chamber), some do meassure only the barrel part. The Russian 125 mm gun is therefore between L/48 and L/52. I thought that I read somewhere that the Arjun has a L/48 gun, however I am not sure where. Will search for the source...

 

[methos]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Btw: 3BM-9 equals 4 EFC and 3BM-22 equals 5 EFC according to Stefan Kotsch's website.

 

[methos]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Swiss Compact Tank Gun:
Compact 120 Tank Gun Brochure

 

[Kunal Biswas]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Really? I recommend you to take a look into literature and not to come up with some dubious informations from self-published websites. If you want a link and not the title of a book: here

A forum link ?

That is forum link and some member giving chamber pressure which copied and pasted here by you.. ? !

260 rounds is realistic, for 120 mm DM 53 the German round with the highest barrel wear. 120 mm DM 63 is in the area of 400 - 600 rounds per barrel and for non-KE rounds it is 1,500.

260 with advance rounds and 400-500rnds of other ammo ( No where mentioned its AP or other ) , there is no where written 1500rnds for L44 firing what ever round..

but I was told different by literature and people in the internet.On the 2A46M tank gun used on the T-72M1 (including Indians) barrel life was 600 - 800 EFC or 100 - 200 APFSDS.

Indian use 2a46M variant of its own for T-72M1, Pre one could fire 250rnds, the newer one can fire 600rnds for modern rounds..

There is gov article was there on net, sadly corrupted..

Regarding the weight difference between L/44 and L/55: If "the whole gun system" also includes the mantlet (which is thicker armoured on Leopard 2A6) then 600 kg of the 1,000 kg difference could be part of the thicker armour.

It does not Includes the Mantel, The mantel is part of tank mainly not a welded part of the Gun..

The whole gun weight is excluding the mantel The barrel and other parts such as chamber and breech are counted..

Really? Did you read any book about German tank guns and technology or the U.S. M256? According to Rolf Hilmes' "Kampfpanzer Entwicklungen der Nachkriegszeit" page 34 the Rheinmetall 120 mm gun has a maximum pressure of 7,100 bar. According to Steve J. Zaloga (M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982 -1992) and R. P. Hunnicutt (Abrams A History of the American Main Battle Tank) the U.S. version of the Rh 120, the M256 does have the same performance; it is just simplified.

You have read the book:

Explain me this, M256 was improve L44 ( I assume you agree ) Both gun are of different mass ( Exclude the Mantal ) M256 is heaver means stronger gun, Now how you explain this both have same 7100bars ?

Just a few posts above:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-present-future-2.html#post539738
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-present-future-2.html#post539751

Have you gone what i told ?

I said KBM2 , Not KBA3.. ?!

Is that so? Then please provide your data. You wrote that "[t]he gun barrel has been partially autofrettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa" - this means that the gun has a maximum safe pressure of 6,120 bar,

So what is denial here ?

while it is autofregatted using a maximum pressure of 8,000 bar. It seems that you do not know how autofreggating is done, during autofregatting the barrel (and chamber) are under extremly pressure, which is higher than the maximum (safe) pressure of the later system. According to Rolf Hilmes (the book I mentioned above) the Rh 120 L/44 is autofregatted with a maximum pressure of 10,000 bar! Still the maximum (safe/operating) pressure of the gun afterwards is only 7,100 bar.

Don't mix up Max Chamber pressure with imaginary 'MAX' safe pressure, DU rounds fired form M1A2 reach above 7100bars in M256..

Scan the page from your book, I am not buying..



( I will wait for month if takes )

 

[methos]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

A forum link ?

That is forum link and some member giving chamber pressure which copied and pasted here by you.. ? !

[...]

260 with advance rounds and 400-500rnds of other ammo ( No where mentioned its AP or other ) , there is no where written 1500rnds for L44 firing what ever round..

He cites the TDV. That's best available source existing for German tanks. But you can also look at "Leopard 2 sein Werden und seine Leistung" by Paul-Werner Krapke. There the author mentions that barrel life is 550 rounds KE and that 1 KE round is equivalent to 3 non-KE rounds.

I said KBM2 , Not KBA3.. ?!

Ok, I confused the names. But what I said stays the same. KBM2 has a pressure of 7,200 kgf/cm², which is 7,060 bar and not 7,200 bar. I

Explain me this, M256 was improve L44 ( I assume you agree ) Both gun are of different mass ( Exclude the Mantal ) M256 is heaver means stronger gun, Now how you explain this both have same 7100bars ?

No! The weight is not equivalent to performance under pressure. The U.S. chose different materials which are cheaper, but offer same performance at more weight. As written by Zaloga costs were reduced. See "M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982 -1992" page 10. The M256 was improved, but U.S. found that the gun was "overly complex and expensive" (Zaloga literally).

Don't mix up Max Chamber pressure with imaginary 'MAX' safe pressure, DU rounds fired form M1A2 reach above 7100bars in M256..

I don't mix anything up, you rather seem to. There are differences between the highest pressure used during production and the maximal supported chamber pressure in real firings (for example how fast the pressure grows to this level). Let's take a look at Jane's or the data from the manufacturer... not a single U.S. APFSDS exceeds 7,100 bar in the M256. M829A1 is having a chamber pressure of 5,600 bar according to Jane's, KEW-A2 (using the same propulsion unit as M829A2) has a pressure of 5,600 bar at 23° c.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

He cites the TDV. That's best available source existing for German tanks. But you can also look at "Leopard 2 sein Werden und seine Leistung" by Paul-Werner Krapke. There the author mentions that barrel life is 550 rounds KE and that 1 KE round is equivalent to 3 non-KE rounds.

Dont give the book name, Its useless better give me scans..

And i dont know what he cited coz i was not there..

You see, Its written there just Rounds not KE or HE, What if 500rnds of HE ? not KE ..

Ok, I confused the names. But what I said stays the same. KBM2 has a pressure of 7,200 kgf/cm², which is 7,060 bar and not 7,200 bar. I

Done..

No! The weight is not equivalent to performance under pressure. The U.S. chose different materials which are cheaper, but offer same performance at more weight. As written by Zaloga costs were reduced. See "M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982 -1992" page 10. The M256 was improved, but U.S. found that the gun was "overly complex and expensive" (Zaloga literally).

Didnt i said, M256 is improved L44 ? Than only i said M256 is thicker and can endure more chamber pressure..

you Are saying the opposite..

I don't mix anything up, you rather seem to. There are differences between the highest pressure used during production and the maximal supported chamber pressure in real firings (for example how fast the pressure grows to this level). Let's take a look at Jane's or the data from the manufacturer... not a single U.S. APFSDS exceeds 7,100 bar in the M256. M829A1 is having a chamber pressure of 5,600 bar according to Jane's, KEW-A2 (using the same propulsion unit as M829A2) has a pressure of 5,600 bar at 23° c.

Show me the link, Not forum like some real link..

Or if you have book scan it ( I am here only )

 

[methos]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Dont give the book name, Its useless better give me scans..

I don't have a scanner here, but I will see what I can do...

You see, Its written there just Rounds not KE or HE, What if 500rnds of HE ? not KE ..

It says KE ammunition there.

Didnt i said, M256 is improved L44 ? Than only i said M256 is thicker and can endure more chamber pressure..

Yes, you said so. But various authors say otherwise. Guess whom I believe...

Show me the link, Not forum like some real link..

M829A1:
ATK - Conventional 120mm Tank Ammunition: ATK's 120mm ammunition is the most advanced in the world
120mm Tank Gun KE Ammunition
+ older brochure which cannot be assesed online anymore

M829A2:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA356146.. (see page 11), but that's not exactly the chamber pressure
http://www.defmunintl.com/Brochures/120mm KE-W A2 APFSDS-T_DMI.pdf KEW-A2 is based on M829A2 (this is even said in the brochure) but equipped with a tungsten penetrator.

For M829A3 no exact values are available, but the other rounds do not excede 7,100 bar. M829 is using the propulsion system of the early German rounds which have a pressure of 5,100 bar at 15°.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

i don't have a scanner here, but I will see what I can do...

It says KE ammunition there.

Will see the Scans when ever you post here..

Yes, you said so. But various authors say otherwise. Guess whom I believe...

No, I am saying what i read about M256..

M829A1:
ATK - Conventional 120mm Tank Ammunition: ATK's 120mm ammunition is the most advanced in the world
120mm Tank Gun KE Ammunition
+ older brochure which cannot be assesed online anymore

M829A2:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA356146.. (see page 11), but that's not exactly the chamber pressure
http://www.defmunintl.com/Brochures/120mm KE-W A2 APFSDS-T_DMI.pdf KEW-A2 is based on M829A2 (this is even said in the brochure) but equipped with a tungsten penetrator.

For M829A3 no exact values are available, but the other rounds do not excede 7,100 bar. M829 is using the propulsion system of the early German rounds which have a pressure of 5,100 bar at 15°.

M829A1 is kinda old, I will give a read on A2 though, But i am sure i read somewhere here either its D90 or other that its more than 7100bars..

 

[methos]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

The file "Updated erosion modeling for the M829E3 round" includes a diagramm for gas pressure (again not necessarily chamber pressure, but it shows pressure in correlation to axial position - is an axial position of 0 m equivalent to the chamber?) at page 9. It seems that ~5,600 bar might at 23°c might be realistic for M829A3.
The file also shows that U.S. pressure values are based on 23°c and not on a temperature of 15°c like German or Russian values.

Also interessing is this phrase: "[...] that the current M256 cannon can fire less than 300 M829A3 rounds before being condemned."

 

[Scalieback]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Centurion Mark 1, 17 pounder

Centurion Mark III, 20 pounder

Centurion Mark V, 105mm

Centurion AVRE, 165mm

Centurion tank in Korea

Of 4,423 Centurions built until production ended in 1962, 2,500 were exported. The Centurion saw widespread combat service during the Cold War in Korea, the Middle East, southern Africa, Pakistan, and Vietnam. It remained in British service until 1969.

 

[Akim]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

140-мм 55L "Bagira"

Танкова гармата 55Л«Багіра», танк Т 64, Т 72, Т 80УД та Т 84 (Київ, Україна)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

140-мм 55L "Bagira"

Танкова гармата 55Л«Багіра», танк Т 64, Т 72, Т 80УД та Т 84 (Київ, Україна)

Thanks for sharing..

Didn't Know about these..

 

[Damian]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

AFAIK Ukrainians have also one more, new gun besides Bagira, the second gun is 125mm Vityaz.

 

[militarysta]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Polish article about new german lightweight Rh 120LLR L/47 for light tanks, universal paltforms, tank destroyers, wheel tank destroyers, etc





The most important dates in english:

1. Rh 120LLR L/47 was developed for light tanks, universal paltforms, tank destroyers, wheel tank destroyers, etc
It has the same baistic like Rh120 L44, but use JCB interfejs for progrmed munitions (like DM11)
Its using material and technology originally developed for 140mm Rh guns.
Barrel life time is:
- 800-1400 for trening munitions (sabot/HEAT)
- 600 for DM63
- 200 for DM53
efficiency muzzle brake is between 44%(DM53) and 55%
the recoil is reduced from 650-700kN to only 250kN, and recoil impulse from 28-29kNs to 21kNs.

2. For combat platform with weight about <20t. Rheinmettal developed diffrent gun: Rh 105SB cal 105mm whit recoil only 180kN and recoil impulse 16 kNs. Ammo using in that 105mm gun can penetrate 560mm RHA for 2000m.


3. Rest dates is in the table - transating criteria in tabela for up to down:
Kaliber[mm] - Caliber
Długość lufy[mm] - barrel lenght
Masy [kg] - mass (weight):
- całkowita (tottal)
- lufy (barrel)
- zespołu zamka ( closing gun - I havent propoer word in english)
- zespołu odrzutowego (recoil system)
Objętość komory nabojowej [dm3] - (volume of the chamber for cartridges)
Prędkość początkowa pocisku [m/s] - (V exit)
Długość odrzutu [mm] - (recoil lenght)
Maksymlana siła odrzutu [kN] (recoil strenght)
Maksymlany impuls odrzutu [kNs] (recoil impulse)
Maksymlane ciśnienie gazów [MPa] (maximum gas pressure)

 

[Akim]

re: Tank Guns: Photo & Dicussion thread..

Thanks for sharing..

Didn't Know about these..

If will translate text of site - only on Russian and Ukrainian.
Танкова гармата 50Л «Вітязь», танк Т 64, Т 72, Т 80УД, Т 84 (Київ, Україна)