Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questions

[Ray]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

on blue ,100 take ki baat, mannu is not leader/politician, he is just highly educated sarkari babu


on green, that irony of India,so why u think sonia choose mannu for 8 yrs???

To be fair to him, he is not his own master.

Same is the case when they say that the Army is free to take action.

Big talk and no more.

Manmohan and likewise the Army are captive Tigers, who cannot help but mew.

If the Army was on its own, why should the Chief go down to the troops level to 'give a piece of his mind' as the newspapers are reporting?

Are the intermediate commanders not capable?

Indeed, maybe they are not.

But it is not that they lack the military acumen, it is just that the Politicians, who have no clue and know not the front from the back of a rifle, have kept all hostage by insisting that they become a 'No Mistake Army'!

Even God makes mistakes.

Politicians don't make mistakes, they make cataclysmic catastrophes and get away.

They are God's own Gonads with the Sun Shining out of their Posteriors!

 

[Blood+]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Thank you Ray sir for your reply.Personally I know nothing about these things as I'm a total noob and all my so called experinence ends with a few rounds from Lee Enfield and SLR in N.C.C.
But isn't there some procedure of appointing a 'Point man' or something in front of a patrol party?Can you please amplify?
THANK you.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

When you shot by a AK or even any caliber the BP plate stops it but not the trauma, The force of impact of bullet on BP plate make enough shock to break your ribs and muscles it blacks out one for some sec or mins..

Patrols use IR scopes on Insas, There are handheld thermal cameras for ambush and infrared light too on posts, But these are insufficient under ambush, But useful in making a ambush for terrorist, Patka provide excellent protection but lack mounts to mount NV goggles and also there are few or none NV goggles available to Units..

It is almost impossible to detect ambush in thick vegetation and mountain area without top end technology, the only way to get of of ambush is to fight back hard and always fire on move, detect the source of enemy fire, reorganize and concentrate fire over enemy firing position..

Weren't they equipped with BPJs and PNVDs?!Aftar all,it was a night patrol and BPJs and BPPs are quite common these days as seen on news channels!!I wonder what went wrong other than the patrol being heavily out numbered?

By the way,Ray sir and Kunal Sir,aren't there any drills and procedures to identify or avoid possible ambush situations?

And Ray sir,what was the situation in your days?I mean back then the insurgency problem was severe by manyfolds as compared to today's!Were proper protective gears and PNVDs available to your so 'belly crawlers'??And how does the Patka fare compared to other contemporary combat helmets?

Thank you.

 

[Ray]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Thank you Ray sir for your reply.Personally I know nothing about these things as I'm a total noob and all my so called experinence ends with a few rounds from Lee Enfield and SLR in N.C.C.
But isn't there some procedure of appointing a 'Point man' or something in front of a patrol party?Can you please amplify?
THANK you.

Yes there are the Scouts, who work in tandem.

However, could it be that our patrol was taken on by a Pakistani Army shadow patrol?

Notwithstanding, the chances would be less (though I am not aware of the visibility conditions there on that day) had the patrol got their designated arcs for observation by each chap right, which would include observation to the front, sides and rear.

They are having a C of I and hopefully they will find out what event wrong.

However, I am 100% confident that our training methods have deteriorated having seen it over time including after retirement.

The concentration now is on high falutin stuff and less on the Basics!

I presume it is a state of mind!

 

[Blood+]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Yes there are the Scouts, who work in tandem.

However, could it be that our patrol was taken on by a Pakistani Army shadow patrol?

Notwithstanding, the chances would be less (though I am not aware of the visibility conditions there on that day) had the patrol got their designated arcs for observation by each chap right, which would include observation to the front, sides and rear.

They are having a C of I and hopefully they will find out what event wrong.

However, I am 100% confident that our training methods have deteriorated having seen it over time including after retirement.

The concentration now is on high falutin stuff and less on the Basics!

I presume it is a state of mind!

Can you please amplify the last part of your statement that less on basics part Sir?As I said,am a total noob.
And can you give a few expample of 'Field craft'?I have heard that term before but don't have much idea.Perdon my ignorance and do let me know if I'm being a nuisence.

THANK you.

 

[Ray]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Can you please amplify the last part of your statement that less on basics part Sir?As I said,am a total noob.
And can you give a few expample of 'Field craft'?I have heard that term before but don't have much idea.Perdon my ignorance and do let me know if I'm being a nuisence.

THANK you.

Field craft and battle drills are whole pamphlets!

It cannot be reproduced here.

 

[Blood+]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Field craft and battle drills are whole pamphlets!

It cannot be reproduced here.

Oh!I see.THANKS anyway.

 

[debasree]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

look at all those photos no kevler helmets jacket nyt vishion we r still in mediaval age ..what the taxpayers billions of dollar goes buys tanks & planes ships what abt fooy soldiers ..low intensity conflict like this where the hell f-insas

 

[roma]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

apparently the pakistan system doesnt do the maths

the very next day - 7 packland police were killed in belouchistan

it seems to be happening quite often

the immediate Karma !

wont they learn ?

 

[pkroyal]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Command failure ??

Well its high time we remained professionals throughout our service.

Train hard , build pride and learn to constantly improve our fighting skills.

My brethren will agree, working parties, ostentation in peace stations, unquenchable ambition to get ahead !! will not get us far.

Infantry requires Officer Leadership which sticks together, marked by a singular lack of ambition ( read greed ) for promotion.

Happy and satisfied staying with the boys ( troops) come hell or high water and not too impressed with babu degrees like Staff College or LDMC etc. Life is PT, Games, Training, Commanding a post, being close to mother nature, enjoying a laugh with your comrades, carrying your wounded and dead and avenging the spilt blood of your comrades if you live to tell the tale. A break for short leave is a soul enriching experience. Guys who have no exposure to the Infantry are you up to it??

 

[pkroyal]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Command failure ??

Well its high time we remained professionals throughout our service.

Train hard , build pride and learn to constantly improve our fighting skills.

My brethren will agree, working parties, ostentation in peace stations, unquenchable ambition to get ahead !! will not get us far.

Infantry requires Officer Leadership which sticks together, marked by a singular lack of ambition ( read greed ) for promotion.

Happy and satisfied staying with the boys ( troops) come hell or high water and not too impressed with babu degrees like Staff College or LDMC etc. Life is PT, Games, Training, Commanding a post, being close to mother nature, enjoying a laugh with your comrades, carrying your wounded and dead and avenging the spilt blood of your comrades if you live to tell the tale. A break for short leave is a soul enriching experience. Guys who have no exposure to the Infantry are you up to it??

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

Thank you Ray sir for your reply.Personally I know nothing about these things as I'm a total noob and all my so called experinence ends with a few rounds from Lee Enfield and SLR in N.C.C.
But isn't there some procedure of appointing a 'Point man' or something in front of a patrol party?Can you please amplify?
THANK you.

You didn't get any .303 there ?

 

[pkroyal]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

This is a proven scientific fact, it takes about 10,000 hours of practice to convert any complex skill into a reflex ! . Now all the bookish Guderian types must comprehend why the insistence on practical hands on training, field craft, battle craft,counter ambush drills, house searching & clearing drills in counter insurgency. Fancy charts, power point presentations are required to impress seniors/sell yourself. Troops understand simple , uncomplicated stuff,robust and resolute leadership, and an officer who cares for them off parade hours but is ruthless in training and execution of mission.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

It was never about any failure of officers or command but long due equipment that cause these causalities, Equipment which are stuck in MOD files ..

To cover up there own deliberated mistakes, they are using present COAS and spreading disinformation into General public as its a fault of Army ..

 

[Blood+]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

@True Spirit,
I did mention 3 not 3 Sir!

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Talk of command failure in army Pakistan intrusion raises questio

@Ray sir,

US sends over their officers for training in HAWS, COIN and CT schools. Do we send over our officers for training in the US Scout Sniper training program?

Apparently at one point of time US had send over it's officers to the Amazon jungles to watch and learn from the aboriginals as to how to read tracks, be one with the jungle, and be invisible to the enemy.

Situation today does seem to call for specialized training with regular refreshers for all infantry units who work in high foliage areas.