Swiss Vote to Ban Minarets

Known_Unknown

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Pluralism does not mean having your country and culture and values overrun by other cultures that have highly obscurant ideas about faith and its role in the country that are contrary to your values.
If that's the case, the Swiss should not have allowed immigration from such countries in the first place. They cannot invite immigrants from the world over by painting a rosy picture of their country, and then proceed to ban the cultural and religious practices of those who subsequently obtained Swiss citizenship. Under the law, all citizens are usually equal in any country, and any prohibition on the practices of one group should either equally apply to all groups (e.g., France), or not apply at all (e.g. Britain).

Selectively denying basic freedoms to your citizens is a slippery slope which could lead to discrimination and persecution on a much wider scale.

If you want to see the underbelly of Muslim immigration in Europe with all its warts, then just go to a Pakistani neighbourhood in London or some of the other Muslim neighbourhoods in England or to some of the Muslim parts of France.

Even liberal Muslims recoil when they see the behaviour of some Muslim groups in the UK for the first time.

These people take advantage of the European system of tolerance and liberal values and undermine the system by bringing to Europe their tribal, cultural and religious values into a country where they already have an established system. Everything from blasting Prayer azan calls in the morning, to honor killings of daughters, burqas, etc, are imported in the name of multi-culturalism.

After a while the local people just get sick of them. Can you blame them ??
Sure I can. Either be upfront about not allowing religious freedoms to minorities or don't allow immigration at all. If the UK shuts down immigration from Pakistan, or other Muslim countries tomorrow, it might result in a little bit of controversy, but they could always justify it by saying that they have the prerogative of deciding who to let into their country.

However, allowing people from all over to settle in Britain, and then suppressing their religious freedoms, would be a violation of human rights. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

If you want to migrate to a foreign country, then accept and respect the pre-dominant culture, values, and ethos of those countries !!!

Otherwise go and live in Pakistan or Saudi or wherever. If you really want sharia law implemented nationwide and endless azan calls at all hours of the day, then why live in England....go live in freaking Pakistan, or Saudi or Egypt.
I partially agree. But this argument varies from country to country. The US calls itself a "melting pot". Official government policy is to encourage immigrants to assimilate themselves into American society by shedding their cultural practices that make them "less American". In Canada, it is quite different. Canada encourages multiculturalism as an official state policy, and there's no pressure on immigrants to lose their cultural heritage.

We'd have to look up Switzerland's immigration policy to engage in a debate on the subject.


Switzerland has every right to say that they want to maintain the Judeo-christian cultural fabric of their country. Unlike India, Brazil, US, - Switzerland is and has always been a fairly homogeneous society just like Japan, Greece, Scandinavian countries.
Sure they do. But by denying their minorities basic freedoms, they don't preserve their Judeo-Christian heritage, but only succeed in erasing all other competing cultures and values. I'm not sure if freedom of religion is guaranteed under Swiss law, but in mostly every liberal, democratic society, certain freedoms are usually present.

Such polls definitely give the impression that the Swiss may still be socially backward and xenophobic, without the maturity of advanced democracies such as India and the US.

These countries have small populations and have provided their citizens with some of the highest standard of living and best quality of life of any countries in the world.

They certainly dont need any lectures from Indians or from any of the many screwed-up Muslim countries on this planet on how to run their countries. They have done very well for themselves.
Yes, but not for too long. Most of Europe is aging, and that's why they allow immigration in the first place-to make up for population numbers that would otherwise fall year after year, making it impossible for future generations to have the same quality of life that their parents enjoyed.

The alternative is to re-implement a Dark Ages immigration policy of allowing only "White immigration", but then again, the isolation they'd face from the world community would not make it worthwhile.
 

sob

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Strong reaction from the Arab World against ban

Minaret ban in Switzerland beneficial for Al Qaeda - Qaddafi

Switzerland's ban on the construction of minarets is a present to Al Qaeda and all those the West considers Islamist terrorists, Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi said Sunday.

The Alpine country held a nationwide referendum November 29, one of the three questions being whether to allow the building of new minarets - towers on mosques from where Muslims are called to prayer. A total of 57.5% of voters and 22 out of 26 cantons backed the proposal, put forward by the rightist Swiss People's Party (SVP).

"In Switzerland's actions, Al Qaeda found a confirmation to its assertions that Europe is an enemy sowing hatred who should be fought against until victory," Qaddafi said when speaking in a Libyan Islamic university.
He called on Western countries to "think and take into account" their "economic interests in the Islamic world."

"You need oil, gas, ports, you need seas, solar energy, investment. [You must] think before making such careless decisions," he said.

Prior to the referendum, the Swiss government and parliament had spoken against the initiative to ban the minarets, but were forced to accept the popular vote. Switzerland has 400,000 Muslims out of a total population of 7.7 million.

The decision has been condemned by Muslims and their supporters worldwide although the Swiss government said after the vote that construction of mosques was allowed and that "Muslims in Switzerland are able to practice their religion alone or in community with others, and live according to their beliefs just as before."

SVP said minarets were rather political symbols than religious ones and called to prevent "political Islam" from gaining ground in Switzerland.

A senior Turkish minister has said Muslims should withdraw their money from Swiss banks in protest against the vote.

Switzerland annually earns over $10 billion from business with Muslim countries. Around 170,000 people from the Gulf visit the country every year. Analysts predict the ban could cause an outflow of Arab investment from Switzerland.
In 2005, the publication by a Danish paper of a series of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad sparked protests in Muslim nations and a boycott of Danish products.
 

johnee

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sir, you missed my point by a mile. I am not at all comparing the Saudis to the Swiss. My post was in relation to the people who have come out in India in protest against this attack on religious freedom, do not have the guts to take up the issue in an international fora.

It is not my place to argue whether the Swiss have done the right thing or the wrong thing, it is their country and they can make laws which as long as do not degenerate into like what Adolf Hitler did to the Jews.

The point we can argue is that if the Swiss go on tom tmoing about religious freedom to other countries than their hypocracy stands exposed today to the ridicule of the other nation states.

Very well, said. As long as they dont preach us, we dont preach them unless it really degenerates into sub-human level. India should not be dragged into this internal affair. Muslim nations of middle east or far-east or africa will not be fooled by any hyper posturing on this issue, on the contrary we will be open to attacks from others because of our preachy attitude.
India's stand should be: We wont interfere with other's interal issues, so everyone should respect our internal issues as well.
 

mattster

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If that's the case, the Swiss should not have allowed immigration from such countries in the first place. They cannot invite immigrants from the world over by painting a rosy picture of their country, and then proceed to ban the cultural and religious practices of those who subsequently obtained Swiss citizenship. Under the law, all citizens are usually equal in any country, and any prohibition on the practices of one group should either equally apply to all groups (e.g., France), or not apply at all (e.g. Britain).

Selectively denying basic freedoms to your citizens is a slippery slope which could lead to discrimination and persecution on a much wider scale.

We'd have to look up Switzerland's immigration policy to engage in a debate on the subject.

Sure they do. But by denying their minorities basic freedoms, they don't preserve their Judeo-Christian heritage, but only succeed in erasing all other competing cultures and values. I'm not sure if freedom of religion is guaranteed under Swiss law, but in mostly every liberal, democratic society, certain freedoms are usually present.

Such polls definitely give the impression that the Swiss may still be socially backward and xenophobic, without the maturity of advanced democracies such as India and the US.

Yes, but not for too long. Most of Europe is aging, and that's why they allow immigration in the first place-to make up for population numbers that would otherwise fall year after year, making it impossible for future generations to have the same quality of life that their parents enjoyed.

The alternative is to re-implement a Dark Ages immigration policy of allowing only "White immigration", but then again, the isolation they'd face from the world community would not make it worthwhile.


Known_Unknown, I appreciate your rebuttal to my comments.

But let me say in general that you were somewhat tone-deaf to the real message behind my post. You need to step back a little, to discern the forest from the trees, and read between the lines.


My larger point is very simple: when you are standing in a filthy cesspool, you really dont want to lecture someone else on cleanliness.....do you ??

This is a really simple point that many Muslims have a really tough time grasping. Let me explain what I mean by this in context of Muslim communities in Europe.

There are 2 very disturbing characteristics about Muslim communities that were aptly laid out by the good Pakistani born English Bishop Nizar of Church of England.

1) When Muslims are in the majority; they are extremely aggressive, discriminate and systematically marginalize their minority non-Muslim communities.
This is a world-wide phenomenon - pick any Muslim majority country that has a sizable non-Muslim population. Even the most progressive Muslim countries like Malaysia where I grew up, are a total mess in this regard.

2) When Muslims are in the minority in a non-Muslim majority country; they are also the ones to scream loudest about discrimination, their human rights, their right to free speech and social injustice.

The Bishop's point was simply this - its simply does not jive, when you "dont walk the talk".

In the UK, it has gone even further than that; Muslim groups in the UK are trying to use the liberal British laws to totally change the local landscape and culture and these very groups show no respect to the existing Judeo-christian fabric of the country and are systematically trying to undermine it via the liberal social policies of the state.

If a group of non-Muslims were to try a similar stunt like that in a majority Muslim country; I guarantee you that they would be slaughtered and massacred in no time.

I think a lot of European states like the Swiss have looked hard at the British and French experience in "multiculturalism", and have come to the conclusion that they dont want a similar experience with their Muslim communities. They are not going to give their Muslim minorities an endless rope to play with. That's what the British and the French did and look at the mess that they have inherited.
As the Aussie PM stated recently - Either integrate fully and respect and accept our values and sensibilties, or you are free to go back to your "Muslim paradise on earth" where you came from.

I dont really want to offend the many good Muslim members of DFI here:

So tell me just conclude by saying this - Muslims in general have no ground to stand on, when it comes to complaining about religious discrimination given the pathetic state of affairs in Muslim majority countries with respect to the way they treat non-Muslims.

If anything, they should be grateful to the Western countries that take them in, and tolerate their religious values and give them a measure of freedom to practice it.



I'll leave you an amusing and disturbing anecdote of my own personal experience of returning to Malaysia in December. 2008, last year to visit some old friends and family:

0n Christmas Day. 2008, I attended a christmas service with my cousin who lives in a small city in northern malaysia called Alor Setar at a Chinese christian church. I was suprised to see that the so-called Church was located in a private residential area and did not even have a Cross on the outside of the buiding to indicate that it was even a church. It looked like a private residence. When I asked the parishioners why - I was told that they were afraid of protests and threats from local Muslim groups and wanted to be "discreet".

A few days later, I went to another town nearby where I grew up. We had a fairly small community of Keralite Malayalee Christians who had their own Marthoma Church there, even when I was a kid 40 years ago. I wanted to see the old church, but it had been moved. So I asked to see the new building, and I was stunned when I was shown the building. The sign on the outside gate said it was a Malayalee community organization and not a church. Again when I inquired, I was told that the local Malay Muslims were angry about having a Church nearby, and to keep things from brewing over, they decided to not call it a "church", even though they conducted services there every Sunday.

I am not trying to give you, or the rest of DFI, a Malaysian history lesson here;
but you get my point - If things in a country like Malaysia (which is parodied around the world as one of the few examples of a successful tolerant moderate Muslim majority country) are that bad, then you can only imagine what its like in other places !!
 

Flint

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There is a grain of truth in what Mattster says. However, that still doesn't justify a wholesale ban on minarets which continues to appear highly absurd.
 

Known_Unknown

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Known_Unknown, I appreciate your rebuttal to my comments.

But let me say in general that you were somewhat tone-deaf to the real message behind my post. You need to step back a little, to discern the forest from the trees, and read between the lines.


My larger point is very simple: when you are standing in a filthy cesspool, you really dont want to lecture someone else on cleanliness.....do you ??

This is a really simple point that many Muslims have a really tough time grasping. Let me explain what I mean by this in context of Muslim communities in Europe.

There are 2 very disturbing characteristics about Muslim communities that were aptly laid out by the good Pakistani born English Bishop Nizar of Church of England.

1) When Muslims are in the majority; they are extremely aggressive, discriminate and systematically marginalize their minority non-Muslim communities.
This is a world-wide phenomenon - pick any Muslim majority country that has a sizable non-Muslim population. Even the most progressive Muslim countries like Malaysia where I grew up, are a total mess in this regard.

2) When Muslims are in the minority in a non-Muslim majority country; they are also the ones to scream loudest about discrimination, their human rights, their right to free speech and social injustice.

The Bishop's point was simply this - its simply does not jive, when you "dont walk the talk".
I appreciate your response too, but I have to say that your argument is utter nonsense.

How muslim-majority states are run is immaterial to the argument. At best, it is a distraction from the real issue, and at worst, it is an attempt to stereotype an entire community of people based on the situation that they find themselves in. The ban on minarets is not just limited to mosques erected by Muslims from muslim-majority states, but for all Muslims. If a Turkish or Indian or Uighur Muslim wants to build a mosque in Switzerland, they will also be forbidden from building a minaret.

Secondly, your belief that Muslims in majority Muslim states always end up oppressing the minorities is also inaccurate. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan or Turkey are very different from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan in the way they view Islam, and the way in which they treat their minorities.


In the UK, it has gone even further than that; Muslim groups in the UK are trying to use the liberal British laws to totally change the local landscape and culture and these very groups show no respect to the existing Judeo-christian fabric of the country and are systematically trying to undermine it via the liberal social policies of the state.
It is but obvious that accepting large numbers of immigrants from other cultures will change Britain's culture over time, and there's nothing sinister or criminal about it. If Britain wants to maintain a strict British Judeo-Christian culture, then there's only one option-ask the native British make more children.

People immigrate to other countries for various reasons, but none of these reasons include giving up their cultures and traditions to completely assimilate themselves in a foreign culture. If that is the requirement, they must be told so in advance, and only those who accept, allowed to immigrate.

If a group of non-Muslims were to try a similar stunt like that in a majority Muslim country; I guarantee you that they would be slaughtered and massacred in no time.
And what does that have to do with anything? Again, your argument is totally irrelevant. Are you suggesting that European governments are adopting some sort of "tit-for-tat" attitude towards their Muslim citizens? Are these supposed to be the new crusades of the 21st century? And if so, are you supporting them?

Besides, you're just wrong. Refer to my earlier examples.

I think a lot of European states like the Swiss have looked hard at the British and French experience in "multiculturalism", and have come to the conclusion that they dont want a similar experience with their Muslim communities. They are not going to give their Muslim minorities an endless rope to play with. That's what the British and the French did and look at the mess that they have inherited.
As the Aussie PM stated recently - Either integrate fully and respect and accept our values and sensibilties, or you are free to go back to your "Muslim paradise on earth" where you came from.
Without specific examples, this is just a whole lot of hot air and fear mongering.

You will also note that most of the countries that have taken such a stand against their Muslim citizens had conservative governments at the time, which are supported by Christian fundamentalists themselves. I don't have to tell you the history of acrimony between the Christian and Muslim hardliners.

So tell me just conclude by saying this - Muslims in general have no ground to stand on, when it comes to complaining about religious discrimination given the pathetic state of affairs in Muslim majority countries with respect to the way they treat non-Muslims.

If anything, they should be grateful to the Western countries that take them in, and tolerate their religious values and give them a measure of freedom to practice it.
So an Indian Muslim should be penalized because Saudi Arabia does not allow religious freedoms?

How about an alternate scenario?

If the Europeans tomorrow decide to restrict the human rights of their citizens who subscribe to socialist or communist ideas because Cuba or China oppress their citizens, will you support it?

Isn't this an absurd argument?
 

jakojako777

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If that's the case, the Swiss should not have allowed immigration from such countries in the first place. They cannot invite immigrants from the world over by painting a rosy picture of their country, and then proceed to ban the cultural and religious practices of those who subsequently obtained Swiss citizenship. Under the law, all citizens are usually equal in any country, and any prohibition on the practices of one group should either equally apply to all groups (e.g., France), or not apply at all (e.g. Britain).

Selectively denying basic freedoms to your citizens is a slippery slope which could lead to discrimination and persecution on a much wider scale.



Sure I can. Either be upfront about not allowing religious freedoms to minorities or don't allow immigration at all. If the UK shuts down immigration from Pakistan, or other Muslim countries tomorrow, it might result in a little bit of controversy, but they could always justify it by saying that they have the prerogative of deciding who to let into their country.

However, allowing people from all over to settle in Britain, and then suppressing their religious freedoms, would be a violation of human rights. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.



I partially agree. But this argument varies from country to country. The US calls itself a "melting pot". Official government policy is to encourage immigrants to assimilate themselves into American society by shedding their cultural practices that make them "less American". In Canada, it is quite different. Canada encourages multiculturalism as an official state policy, and there's no pressure on immigrants to lose their cultural heritage.

We'd have to look up Switzerland's immigration policy to engage in a debate on the subject.




Sure they do. But by denying their minorities basic freedoms, they don't preserve their Judeo-Christian heritage, but only succeed in erasing all other competing cultures and values. I'm not sure if freedom of religion is guaranteed under Swiss law, but in mostly every liberal, democratic society, certain freedoms are usually present.

Such polls definitely give the impression that the Swiss may still be socially backward and xenophobic, without the maturity of advanced democracies such as India and the US.



Yes, but not for too long. Most of Europe is aging, and that's why they allow immigration in the first place-to make up for population numbers that would otherwise fall year after year, making it impossible for future generations to have the same quality of life that their parents enjoyed.

The alternative is to re-implement a Dark Ages immigration policy of allowing only "White immigration", but then again, the isolation they'd face from the world community would not make it worthwhile.

I've read your comments and I must comment them due to the fact that I'm European and have lived in different parts of Europe
I have no time to comment now I'll do it as soon as I can and I can tell you already that,
your argument have more holes than Swiss cheese (which is only aspect really related to Swiss in all you say)
Let alone the fact that you give impression not knowing much about Europe on top

Oh boy I can't wait to start my dear Colonel :twizt:
 

mattster

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Known_unknown - I certainly did not expect you to agree with me, but even I was suprised at how tone-deaf you are.

I guess we will never see eye-to-eye on this subject.

Its obvious from your comments that you havent been in East London or Marseille to see for yourself what a classic example of Muslim migration to Europe looks like.

My humble suggestion is for you to take a trip on your next vacation from Canada to a "nice Pakistani neighbourhood in East London". While you are at it; you might want to attend one of the many mosques run by that famous organization Hizb ut-Tahrir to get a really good taste of what Muslim UK would look like.

I also found it more than just amusing that you had to go to the far corners of the planet at the edge of the former Soviet repubic to pick up 2 countries with vodka drinking non-practising Muslims like Kazakstan and Kyrgyzstan as your paragon of multicultural tolerance.

But even more curious was the choice of Turkey - a country that slaughtered more than 1/2 a million Armenian Christians in the past century. Probably one of the biggest genocides in the last century besides the holocaust.
Oh....but thats not to mention the thousands of Turkish Muslim Kurds who have been killed in the last 50 years by the nice Turkish Muslims who now want EU membership.

Coming to my last point about "Muslims not having any standing to talk about religious discrimination".

I guess it only natural for Muslims to get very defensive when a non-Muslim makes such a comment.

So let me leave it to a formidable Muslim scholar with an extensive religious training who has been persecuted endlessly for his stand on various issues in Malaysia, to make my case !!
His name is Anwar Ibrahim and he is a Muslim, and an internationally recognized leader, and the head of the opposition party in Malaysia.

Here is the link: Muslims urged to accept minorities
 

Known_Unknown

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I've read your comments and I must comment them due to the fact that I'm European and have lived in different parts of Europe
I have no time to comment now I'll do it as soon as I can and I can tell you already that,
your argument have more holes than Swiss cheese (which is only aspect really related to Swiss in all you say)
Let alone the fact that you give impression not knowing much about Europe on top

Oh boy I can't wait to start my dear Colonel
It will be interesting to know your experience.

I guess it only natural for Muslims to get very defensive when a non-Muslim makes such a comment.
And this is where your biased and prejudiced perspectives on world affairs stands out. FYI, I'm not Muslim, and just because I argue in favour of multiculturalism doesn't mean that I'm all for the extinction of the native cultures of host countries.

I admit I haven't travelled to Switzerland, but I live in Canada, and Canada has never had the sort of problems with its Muslim minorities that Europe has had. Toronto has immigrants from many countries, and 49% of its residents were born outside of Canada, yet we have never had race or religious riots.
 

mattster

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It will be interesting to know your experience.

And this is where your biased and prejudiced perspectives on world affairs stands out. FYI, I'm not Muslim, and just because I argue in favour of multiculturalism doesn't mean that I'm all for the extinction of the native cultures of host countries.

I admit I haven't travelled to Switzerland, but I live in Canada, and Canada has never had the sort of problems with its Muslim minorities that Europe has had. Toronto has immigrants from many countries, and 49% of its residents were born outside of Canada, yet we have never had race or religious riots.

Known-unknown.....Trust me when I say that I am not being sarcastic or trying to be a "smart ass" when I say this - You really need to go and spend a at least a day in East London.

Its only when I did that, that I fully understood what the English were having to deal with. Then you might have some sympathy for the Swiss.
 

johnee

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Great posts, mattster. I have to say that KU sounds like he is arguing for the sake of it and missing the larger point made by mattster.
 

Known_Unknown

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Known-unknown.....Trust me when I say that I am not being sarcastic or trying to be a "smart ass" when I say this - You really need to go and spend a at least a day in East London.

Its only when I did that, that I fully understood what the English were having to deal with. Then you might have some sympathy for the Swiss.
OK, so how does banning construction of minarets reduce Muslim religious extremism in society?

I would not support any law that is religion, class or race specific. Under the laws of most democracies, all citizens are equal, and so should it be. Whenever laws try to discriminate on the basis of these social identifiers, whether to favour or disfavour a particular group, it increases tension and fuels extremism within the unfavoured groups, leading to breakdown of social cohesion.

If Switzerland has a problem with religious extremism, then this is exactly the sort of thing they should not do.

The French "problem" with Muslim minorities cannot be used as a basis for explaining the Swiss decision. The French problems have more to do with racism, unemployment, discrimination and ghettoisation of their Muslim minorities.
 

mattster

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KU...you and I can debate at an intellectual theoretical level about the Swiss ban on minarets, till the cows come home.

But we would both be missing the point - to really understand this issue, you need to take the time to travel in Europe and experience the impact of Muslim immigration on some of these societies. Its an experiential process, not an intellectual exercise !!

The issue here that the Swiss are responding to is NOT really about "minarets or mosques". The real underlying issue that is causing real concerns in all parts of Europe is a slow steady creeping Islamization of their respective Muslim communities.

This phenomenon puts the whole community at odds with the values and secular culture that Europeans a few hundred years ago fought and bled to achieve. Europe you must understand has played this record of the conflict between state and religion few hundred years ago at great cost in personal and human life. They have created their secular system and overthrown the feudal religious system at great cost.

Now suddenly they are faced with small communities that want a different set of rules and are not willing to accept the liberal progressive social mores of their adopted country.

The "minaret issue" is just a facade, and maybe a knee-jerk reaction to the bigger and much more problematic issue. Its the Swiss way of saying "enough is enough".

Again, I reiterate that you have to see the impact yourself, Words dont do any justice.

That is my last comment on this issue.
 

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I think the problem is not the ban on the minarets. It is just a knee jerk reaction from the Swiss.

IMO any civil society per se will not have a problem with the immigrants if they are able to integrate with the local society. If the locals feel that if the newcomers are not adhering to the local laws, conventions then they will definitely feel disturbed.

I have a British friend who has immigrated to Australia around 4 years back. He has an interesting observation. In the UK examples as Mattster has mentioned earlier,the immigrants from Pakistan have failed to integrate and prefer to live in a closed community and would prefer to replicate a mini Pakistan in UK. The same is with the Vietnamese in Australia and to some extent Lebanese also. This will one day result in a backlash. Compared to this Indians, especially the 2nd generation, irrespective of their religion on a larger scale prefer to use education to move up the social ladder and would prefer not to be known as Indians only, but as successful members of the local society.

On a larger scale it does not have to be a religious issue but due to the sheer number of Muslim migrants from North Africa, Turkey and some eastern states, this will get highlighted as a Muslim issue.
 

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The difference between Canadian/North American muslims and British/French muslims can be explained by class. Muslim migrants to North America are usually highly-skilled workers who are career-oriented and generally very modern in their thinking. However, British and French muslims are largely made up of low-skilled migrants who came to those countries during the period when immigration rules were quite lax.

Add to this the question of identity. North American countries are built upon immigration. They don't have the ethno-religious foundation that is the very basis for the formation of European nations, and are hence much better at assimilating immigrants.
 

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Minaret Threat Eclipsed by Swiss Intolerance: Celestine Bohlen



Commentary by Celestine Bohlen

Dec. 8 (Bloomberg) -- If it did nothing else (and it may end up getting knocked down in a European Court of Human Rights), Switzerland’s vote to ban the building of minarets drew attention to Europe’s identity crisis. The Swiss -- like the French, or the Germans, or the British for that matter -- are clearly worried about the Muslims living among them.

Worry is one thing. It can be irrational, yet understandable. When people stoke those worries and turn them into fear, intolerance follows, and that is unacceptable.

The Swiss vote has succeeded in shifting focus away from the social and economic problems of immigration, and toward religion. Putting the full weight of Europe’s cultural identity crisis on a slender piece of traditional architecture was both disingenuous and dangerous. Worse, it seems to be catching.

Previous debates about the role of Islam in Europe involved issues other than religion. The 2004 French ban on head scarves in schools was about the submission of women; the 2005 publication of Danish cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad was about free speech.

A minaret, by contrast, is no more and no less than a symbol. Other religious symbols draw protest -- a nativity scene in front of City Hall, say, or a cross on a mountaintop -- but they, unlike the minaret, are not part of a house of worship.

Yet the minaret is being outlawed in the heart of Europe -- to scattered applause in neighboring countries.

Four Minarets

Somehow, an obscure referendum about Islamic architecture in a country of 7.8 million with just four minarets and 400,000 Muslims struck a nerve across Europe. That’s especially true in France, where politicians had been trying to manage a debate over “national identity,” and keep religion out of it. Now the cat is out of the bag.

“It is a completely irrational issue, because a minaret can’t harm anyone, but it’s very rational politically, because it sells well for a certain electorate,” said Francois Heisbourg, director of the Foundation of Strategic Studies, a Paris-based research institute.

Suddenly, people are expressing views that they once would have considered racist or intolerant. In a survey taken the day after the Swiss vote by Paris-based polling agency Ifop, 41 percent of French people questioned said they opposed the construction of mosques, up from 22 percent in 2001. On the question of building minarets, 46 percent were opposed.

Zero-Sum Game

There are an estimated 20 million Muslims among the European Union’s 500 million people, some of them native (mainly in the Balkans), many of them already second- or even third- generation in France, the U.K., and Germany. Denmark, Sweden and the Netherlands, among others, have accepted more recent arrivals. Islam is now Europe’s second-biggest religion.

One source of the fear of Muslims -- a theme that keeps coming up in print and in conversation -- is Europeans’ deep and complicated resentment of an unfamiliar, historically hostile religion that is perceived as a direct challenge to Christianity, Europe’s dominant faith.

In this view, disputed by church leaders, the contest becomes a kind of atavistic zero-sum game. Why else would leaders from Italy’s xenophobic Northern League party propose to put a crucifix on the Italian flag?

There are other explanations for the widespread unease with Islam: its association with jihad and terrorism; the demands by Muslims for special treatment, such as segregation by gender at public swimming pools; persistent illegal practices like polygamy; and a sense that some Muslims ignore, even repudiate, values that are at the core of European civilization, such as free speech and the separation of church and state.

Moderate Imams

None of these issues has anything to do with minarets, which are generally built alongside Europe’s large urban mosques, where the imams are usually moderate establishment figures. Those imams who preach jihad don’t do it from minarets; they are laying low in store-front mosques, often on the run from the police.

There are reasons to be concerned about Europe’s ability to integrate its Muslim citizens. But the subject is too important to be guided by religious stereotypes. The riots in France’s suburban ghettoes in 2005 were a testament to the failure of social policies, not to a resurgent Islam.

Issues like minarets or the burqa -- the ominous-looking head-to-toe garment, worn by a small number of Muslim women, that is being targeted by French President Nicolas Sarkozy -- are beside the point. As an editorial in Le Monde said last week, the burqa, however offensive it may be to a woman’s dignity, is hardly a threat to secularism, the keystone of the French republic. According to a weirdly precise report by a French domestic intelligence agency, it is worn today by exactly 367 French women.

Fear-Fueled Vote

It is worth noting that the Swiss referendum against minarets was supported mostly by rural voters, whose fear of Islamic aggression comes more from ignorance than experience: it’s a safe bet that many have never seen a minaret, except on alarmist campaign posters where they are depicted as comic-book missiles.

There is no excuse for stigmatizing any religion. That goes against the very values of tolerance Europe claims to stand for. It also marks a discouraging setback for the further integration of Muslim citizens, which has to be the goal of every European country. There is no other choice.

(Celestine Bohlen is a Bloomberg News columnist. The opinions expressed are her own.)

Minaret Threat Eclipsed by Swiss Intolerance: Celestine Bohlen - Bloomberg.com
 

jakojako777

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OK, so how does banning construction of minarets reduce Muslim religious extremism in society?

I would not support any law that is religion, class or race specific. Under the laws of most democracies, all citizens are equal, and so should it be. Whenever laws try to discriminate on the basis of these social identifiers, whether to favour or disfavour a particular group, it increases tension and fuels extremism within the unfavoured groups, leading to breakdown of social cohesion.

If Switzerland has a problem with religious extremism, then this is exactly the sort of thing they should not do.

The French "problem" with Muslim minorities cannot be used as a basis for explaining the Swiss decision. The French problems have more to do with racism, unemployment, discrimination and ghettoisation of their Muslim minorities.

If Switzerland has a problem with religious extremism, then this is exactly the sort of thing they should not do.

Let us not get carried away, decision was simple democratic vote that is extremely sensitive issue be cause of its religious origin...

This was not planned or orchestrated by"Swiss", so there is no conspiracy in what is happening, just democratic vote that puts minority in its place.
It just shows that people are fed up in general with Muslim approach to try to impose themselves (even though minority!) instead to integrate!

Minaret is symbolic issue be cause usually Muslims always tend to build it higher than local church to symbolically show primacy (and future domination) of Islam in the world....


I would not support any law that is religion, class or race specific. Under the laws of most democracies, all citizens are equal, and so should it be.
I really don't see how your or anybodies opinion can devaluate democratic vote?!?

If that removing of minaret is in any way taking of "citizens rights"
(which I strongly doubt be cause Islam is such anti-democratic religion)
With your logic it can be also argued weather the people have their sovereign right to express themselves about their national identity and how should it be defined !
Muslim will preserve their right to practice their religion and that is the essence of democratic rights other technical details (like minarets) are less important!

Personally I'm for everybody to respect culture and tradition of host and to try to INTEGRATE if wants to stay in longer term.

There are mountains of proves that NON selective Muslim emigration to Europe has brought millions of low educated Muslims who serve as cheap labor in Europe and have no intention whatsoever to integrate.
The best proof is that many have even language problems after so many years spent in country....

Being myself immigrant who easily and quickly integrated in EU (like all east Europeans) I can see the contrast of many Muslims who are still not completely integrated even when they are 2nd or 3rd generation!

That creates huge number of problems like;
asking for Shariah law, negating equality of man and women, polygamy, asking for only women to examine or give birth etc. in hospitals, violent unrests with hundreds of burning cars every year or having violent riots over even simplest issue like caricature that somebody ("dared"!!) to make on Islam or prophet Muhammad when we all know that Christians don't even notice let alone make riots be cause somebody have made caricature of Jesus ! etc etc....
I will not even mention the bombs and all failed terrorist attempts in Europe...

All those things and plenty of others are just widening gap between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe.
And all that is not artificial or product of imagination but every day life
experience.


If Switzerland has a problem with religious extremism, then this is exactly the sort of thing they should not do.


So you suggest typical (politically correct) non democratic move to override decision of the people in the name of peace and coexistence?!

But that RUBBISH formula has been imposed in Europe NON democratically by political elite over decades !
And they use media brain washing to achieve that "unity"and problem is still there !!

People are fed up to hear the same song all the time and NOTHING changes be cause Muslims want that Europe adapts to them NOT OPPOSITE !

The French "problem" with Muslim minorities cannot be used as a basis for explaining the Swiss decision. The French problems have more to do with racism, unemployment, discrimination and ghettoisation of their Muslim minorities.



Oh YES it can be used! And it is exactly the French "problem" with Muslim minorities is basis for explaining the Swiss decision and problem with Muslims that rises on European level !

Just do NOT watch official media with their rubbish politically correct talk be cause they do EVERYTHING to HIDE PROBLEMS !

The French problems have more to do with racism, unemployment, discrimination and ghettoisation of their Muslim minorities.

Racism??! What nonsense!
1st Muslims are NOT race but religion!
Europe is so much multiracial today that it is absurd to talk about racism!
"Front National" French extreme right party had blacks and Arabs on their bil posters and publicity material during voting campaign ! So if extrem right is not racist WHO is it?
How Europeans can be racists if there are no single racist party in power and if Europe is so much racily mixed already??!?
No!
Those are just another proves that majority Euro-Muslims do NOT integrate
but everybody else does!

Of course, if you talk about some minorities within European extreme right like German skinheads they are completely marginal lunatics today and have NO political power at all!

"unemployment"

Unemployment is affecting everybody ! Many of young Arabs have nothing but basic education and with scarce job offer they have logically more problems to find job! Many of them are in criminal activity just like USA blacks that is also why people hesitate to give them job specially if they were in prison!


"ghettoisation"


Muslims ghettoize themselves! NOBODY is forcing them !
Have you ever heard for example of "East Europeans ghetto"?
You can NOT hear about it be cause it does NOT exist !
WHY?
Be cause east Europeans integrate immediately practically and don't create areas where only them live!
WHY?
Be cause they accept language culture and tradition already in 1st generation!


Also in Muslim ghettos few French that live there (be cause of crimes,violence, burning cars etc.) they try to move to some other place which at the end makes those "ghettos" 100% African-Muslim ghettos!

Trust me you will not read in politically correct newspapers about that or see it on TV!
 

Parashuram1

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Swiss brace for minaret backlash

In the cold night air, they gathered.

First in threes and fours, until it became a bigger group. They carried candles and their anger - upset that Switzerland had approved a vote to ban minarets, the prayer towers on top of mosques.

They first read about the demonstration on a website and decided to join. And as the night got colder, the numbers got bigger, 50, 60, all denouncing the surprise result.One woman told me: "This speaks against religious freedom in our country".The police kept a watchful eye.

Will of the people

The opinion polls thought there would be a narrow "no" vote. They called it wrong. Moments after the polls closed, the exit surveys were predicting a "yes". And they were right.

In front of the bright lights of the media centre, close to the parliament, the country's justice minister announced the will of the people had to be accepted. The constitution would be changed.The small, slight dark-haired figure of Eveline Widmet Schlumpf insisted this was not a vote again Islam, but a simple ban on minarets.

"The ban on construction of new minarets does have the effect of restricting the freedom to display the Muslim faith to the outside world by erecting a minaret," Schlumpf said.

"However, the freedom to profess one's faith in Islam and to practice the religion alone or in the community is not affected in any way."

Switzerland has 160 mosques and cultural centres. We know this because it was included in the referendum fact pack sent to voters. Only four have minarets.
The ban was promoted by the right-wing People's Party, which ran a controversial poster campaign to sway voters.

Their argument was that this was just the start for those who wanted an Islamic state in Switzerland. There was never any concrete evidence to back up the rhetoric.

'Genuine fears'

Martin Baltisser is one of the party's senior officials. He's heard the claims that this was a racist campaign, bordering on Islamophobic.

"It wasn't racist. It was an opportunity to discuss people's genuine fears and it was a very good discussion."
The turnout was much higher than expected. As we stood outside the school, which was used as a polling station in one of Bern's suburbs, they even turned up an hour before it opened, so keen were they to cast their vote.
And like those putting together the opinion polls, all we spoke to insisted they opposed the ban.

The Swiss government will now introduce article 72, paragraph three into the Swiss constitution, banning the construction of minarets.

Opposition parties are talking of a challenge in the European Court of Human Rights. What was meant to be a short debate on the future of Islam, now has the potential to become a long-running open sore.

Muslim communities say the decision will spread deep concern and worry. The Swiss government and businesses are worried too - about whether this controversial but democratic ballot will provoke an international backlash.[/
QUOTE]
It is the country of Swiss people. It is therefore, their wish whom the want to give how much freedom. I don't think any pompous international rights watch agency has the right to question Switzerland over this. If the Swiss people are not comfortable with giving a community too much freedom, they are doing it within their own country; why is everyone, specifically the Liberals and the Muslim community so worked-up about it? It is not like the Swiss government is ordering this to be done in the Middle East.

It is important that we respect the culture and the law of the country rather than twisting them in the favor of outsiders. Even though there is a small community of Hindus in Switzerland, we don't run around howling why we are not given rights to erect structures and sing the early morning hymns and prayers. We respect the Swiss laws and their culture and try to integrate the best we can with them, just as the British Hindu, American Hindu and other international Hindu communities.

Neither do Christians make such demand in Muslim countries as it has been well noticed. It is always the Muslim immigrants that get radicalized and provoked over simple reasons of national law of their host country. I believe that this is due to uninterrupted pampering by so-called Liberal parties.

I think that rather than getting needlessly angry and getting worked up, the immigrant Muslim community of each non-Muslim countries must respect the fact that they are merely allowed to practise their faith and should respect their host's culture. It is the only right thing.
 

jakojako777

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Swiss brace for minaret backlash


It is the country of Swiss people. It is therefore, their wish whom the want to give how much freedom. I don't think any pompous international rights watch agency has the right to question Switzerland over this. If the Swiss people are not comfortable with giving a community too much freedom, they are doing it within their own country; why is everyone, specifically the Liberals and the Muslim community so worked-up about it? It is not like the Swiss government is ordering this to be done in the Middle East.

It is important that we respect the culture and the law of the country rather than twisting them in the favor of outsiders. Even though there is a small community of Hindus in Switzerland, we don't run around howling why we are not given rights to erect structures and sing the early morning hymns and prayers. We respect the Swiss laws and their culture and try to integrate the best we can with them, just as the British Hindu, American Hindu and other international Hindu communities.

Neither do Christians make such demand in Muslim countries as it has been well noticed. It is always the Muslim immigrants that get radicalized and provoked over simple reasons of national law of their host country. I believe that this is due to uninterrupted pampering by so-called Liberal parties.

I think that rather than getting needlessly angry and getting worked up, the immigrant Muslim community of each non-Muslim countries must respect the fact that they are merely allowed to practise their faith and should respect their host's culture. It is the only right thing.

specifically the Liberals and the Muslim community so worked-up about it?


We all know why Muslims are against it but many don't know that Liberals are behind ALL this troubles in the 1st place.
They are the one who advocated global market and opening of all European borders which resulted in total invasion of Europe for simple objective to lower the wages that provoked big erosion of quality of life for many Europeans.

Now Liberals are affraid be cause of minarets that their rich Muslim clients might go to some other tax paradise - all is about the money they really don't care even if Swiss becomes Islamic republic. They can always go elsewhere but ordinary Swiss people have NO OTHER Swiss to go to....
And it is the same problem all around the Europe!
They should not be worried very rich people have all the same religion and nationality and it is called money!

WHY Muslims don't ask many other Muslim countries that do NOT permit Christian churches let alone Jewish temples to change their attitude ?!?

That doesn't bother them at all of course but they always ask for more!

They have Mosques to go to have prayer and nobody disturbs them to do that which is still much more than they give in many Muslim countries to others!
There are even examples of burning Jewish temples in France linked always with
conflicts in Palestine or attacking Jews on the street!
Which probably shows the destiny of Christians if they ever become minority to Muslims in Europe...

Muslims know how to scream about "injustice" and absence of "rights" they NEVER had even close in their Muslim country of origin !

Neither do Christians make such demand in Muslim countries as it has been well noticed. It is always the Muslim immigrants that get radicalized and provoked over simple reasons of national law of their host country.

I can't agree more with your words here!
I am personally for any foreigner in foreign country to show RESPECT and against all proselytism of any religion in other countries than your own!
If people would act like that there would be much less problems.

The problem is that Qur'an doesn't recognize civil authority of non believers
( European civil authority) over the Muslims - therefore Muslims are bound always to try to impose themselves to "infidels". If they are ruled by non Muslims they are NOT true Muslims by Qur'an !
That is the essence of the problem !


They are trying now simply by multiplying themselves to impose themselves be cause they understood that they can't achieve that by bombs !
Alliance from Liberals and all Left Wing parties in common objective to protect Muslim emigration to continue arriving in Europe even today when Europe has huge unemployment problem - will grow problem even bigger...

Ordinary people can't take it any more!
Their lives are being KIDNAPPED by to many Muslims so fast that they couldn't even adapt
And now their lives are turned into something else that has nothing to do with Europe and European tradition.
That is what that Swiss vote is about in my oppinion!
They don't want to hear Arab shouted 5 times day be cause it is Swiss not Saudi Arabia .
One day people wake up and decide they can not take it any more!
It is as simple as that.

First time when I arrived in Brussels 14years ago I was shocked to see so many women with black hijabs that show only eyes in city center!
It was like being in Morocco not in center of Europe!
On top that has nothing to do with European tradition to treat women as equal!
And examples are ENDLESS.

I can easily overflow this thread with plenty of examples (videos, articles etc.) of Muslim excesses that are not acceptable to Europe and it is like that for decades!
Starting with Muslim riots where they openly call on imposing Muslim domination in Europe in front of our own eyes to burning cars by their youngsters mobs...
And negating Christian origin of European civilization by their EU political elite !

One has impression that they are the hosts and native Europeans visitors !


...............
 

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