Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Enquirer]

Look dude in my post I mentioned that it was a variation of a SNAP generator. I am not a nuclear physicist but I know this much - 60 years back the technology to miniaturize nuclear 'reactors' (a device that works on nuclear chain reaction) was already advanced enough to pack it into a back pack. More powerful variants were powering satellites (There is no abundant water in space). I would like to believe that mankind has made a lot of progress since then.

Looks like you're ersakthivel's friend after all! Won't admit that you misspoke!

Firstly, it's not a 'nuclear reactor' that was lost in Nanda devi! It's just 'nuclear material' that naturally decays to produce some heat. The heat is linked to a thermocouple to generate some tiny amount of electricity.
Even a high school kid can put that gadget together (if he/she has access to some kind of nuclear material).
Nasa had used that a lot in early spacecrafts.

Nope, the 'nuclear device' that was left there was a variation of the SNAP generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNAP-10A ( -> this is a 'nuclear reactor'). They were trying to run 1960s era radar and surveillance equipment off it not some thermal jackets.

 

[Enquirer]

Nope you can spout it but not explain it. There is a difference. Explanation assumes that the other party can make sense of it. IF not it is just a monologue.

This is not explanation enough?? This is spouting??
Wonder what kind of spoon feeding you're used to!

Firstly, it's not a 'nuclear reactor' that was lost in Nanda devi! It's just 'nuclear material' that naturally decays to produce some heat. The heat is linked to a thermocouple to generate some tiny amount of electricity.
Even a high school kid can put that gadget together (if he/she has access to some kind of nuclear material).
Nasa had used that a lot in early spacecrafts.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Please technology is much more advanced than that. Not all reactors need water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_affordable_fission_engine

This reactor generates 100KW of electricity or useful power to run anything. Even Rustom-2 engine is powered at 120kW. How does this tiny reactor make sense? To get higher power, you need water cooled reactors

 

[Enquirer]

Doesn't the Western entities come under CAATSA? British chaff, French SDR?? I would believe UTTAM would be ready by 2021 that leaves us with one less input from Ruskies

Sent from my Coolpad 3600I using Tapatalk

The French & British won't be considered as selling to Russia but to India. If Ukraine (direct victim of Russian aggression) is willing to provide engines to Russian frigates being purchased by India, why would US worry about France/UK selling stuff to India (to go into a Russian platform)?

I would believe UTTAM would be ready by 2021 that leaves us with one less input from Ruskies

Sent from my Coolpad 3600I using Tapatalk

Don't think so.
Su-30MKI is an air-superiority aircraft, that currently has detection/tracking ranges well above 400/200kms. The replacement AESA radar should also be similarly capable.

Uttam is more in the ELM2052 category. If it can achieve a 150km range it would be spectacular.

(haven't compared the power levels of the Uttam T/R modules with that of contemporary Russian ones)

But DRDO could develop a bigger radar (at some point in time in the future) that packs more T/R modules to take advantage of bigger space in Su-30MKI, but am not sure if the range objectives would be still be achieved (that too in the given timeframe).

So, all said and done Su-30MKI AESA upgrade will feature a Russian AESA radar for sure!!!

 

[Sancho]

Uttam is more in the ELM2052 category.

Uttam just as EL 2052, or Zhuk AE can be scaled up and down in size, to fit different nose diameters. EL 2052 is offered for Jags, LCA Tejas , Kai T50, F16, or Kfir fighters, all with different sizes. Similarly, Uttam could be used on LCA MK2, upgraded Mig29K, upgraded Su 30 MKI, or even FGFA as well. The question is, is it ready, how comparable is the performance and will the Russians allow the integration?

 

[Enquirer]

Uttam just as EL 2052, or Zhuk AE can be scaled up and down in size, to fit different nose diameters. EL 2052 is offered for Jags, LCA Tejas , Kai T50, F16, or Kfir fighters, all with different sizes. Similarly, Uttam could be used on LCA MK2, upgraded Mig29K, upgraded Su 30 MKI, or even FGFA as well. The question is, is it ready, how comparable is the performance and will the Russians allow the integration?

An AESA radar is not like a conventional radar that you can just increase/decrease the radar size/power to increase/decrease its range/performance!

Every single addition of a T/R module changes the entire electromagnetic lobe! It radar will need to undergo complex recalculations, recalibration, reprogramming and retests! (It's not like adding extra scoops to make your ice cream bigger)

As such, a new 'sized' Uttam won't be in the offing for several years after the current Uttam project has been completed in 2021 (maybe till 2026). By which time, Su-30MKI upgrades would already be underway!!!

 

[Sancho]

An AESA radar is not like a conventional radar that you can just increase/decrease the radar size/power to increase/decrease its range/performance!

Yes it is, that's why I gave you the example of the EL 2052 and all the fighters it is intended to.
Even the Phazotron proposed a scaled up Zhuk AE of the Mig 35, for the Su 30 MKI upgrade, while the manufacturer of the Bars PESA, offered an AESA version of Bars. Even for the IAF Mig 29 upgrade, there were Zhuk ME and a downscaled Bars version proposed, so size is not the issue.

P.S. Also remember that Thales is testing an RBE 2 AESA Version for their proposal for LCA MK1A.

 

[Enquirer]

Yes it is, that's why I gave you the example of the EL 2052 and all the fighters it is intended to.
Even the Phazotron proposed a scaled up Zhuk AE of the Mig 35, for the Su 30 MKI upgrade, while the manufacturer of the Bars PESA, offered an AESA version of Bars. Even for the IAF Mig 29 upgrade, there were Zhuk ME and a downscaled Bars version proposed, so size is not the issue.

P.S. Also remember that Thales is testing an RBE 2 AESA Version for their proposal for LCA MK1A.

Every vendor will offer anything for a multi billion dollar contract - including things that don't exist. They'll willingly take your money for that development effort!!

If you're falling for the marketing spiel and basing your argument on that, then it won't be a productive conversation.

(If only I had a dime for every time I had to correct folks on this forum that F414-EPE engines do not exist.........
But GE willingly offers it up if the program is 'funded' )

Zhuk already has developed multiple AESA radars(including Su-27 specific ones). While Bars has none! For nearly a decade Bars was actually advising India not to go for AESA radar for Su-30MKI upgrade but instead go for their improved PESA radar first and then upgrade to AESA (presumably, whenever they develop one). Per their logic, improvements should be done in 'steps' and one should not leap ahead. Total BS - only to preserve their revenue streams!

Also 'AESA version of their PESA radar' makes absolutely no sense. Those two are like coffee & tea -they both might be served as a hot/cold beverage, but their fundamental composition/procurement is very different! Only bars would've said such nonsense, because for a long time they had no AESA tech!

Also, one needs to understand that the basic T/R module for Uttam was perfected ages ago! All the work in the last several years is just to get the 'math' & 'physics' right in making multiple T/R modules work coherently! (the electromagnetic theory is beyond the scope of this discussion).

 

[Sancho]

Every vendor will offer anything for a multi billion dollar contract - including things that don't exist.

Lol, EL 2052 in Jags doesn't exist? RBE 2 for LCA as said, in flight testing! Just because it doesn't suit your opinion, doesn't mean it's wrong.

For nearly a decade Bars was actually advising India not to go for AESA radar for Su-30MKI upgrade but instead go for their improved PESA radar first and then upgrade to AESA

Because they wanted us to make the available upgrade to Su 35s Irbis-E PESA now and upgrade later to the Su 57 AESA, to have common radar or common techs in MKI and FGFA.
That's even LMs sales pitch for the F16 B70 too, because the APG 81 is based on the techs of the F35 AESA.

Also 'AESA version of their PESA radar' makes absolutely no sense. Those two are like coffee & tea -they both might be served as a hot/cold beverage, but their fundamental composition/procurement is very different! Only bars would've said such nonsense, because for a long time they had no AESA tech!

:biggrin2: Ever heard of a fighter called Rafale? Thales RBE 2 "PESA", was developed into RBE 2 AESA. But that's just marketing too right?

 

[Enquirer]

Lol, EL 2052 in Jags doesn't exist? RBE 2 for LCA as said, in flight testing! Just because it doesn't suit your opinion, doesn't mean it's wrong.

2052 for Jaguar and 2052 for LCA are exactly the same radar - no fancy 'scaling' up or 'scaling' down was done!!

Also the question is not if a bigger radar can or cannot be made. It's a matter of redoing a tonne of development/testing! It's not like you want a bigger chappati and someone rolls a bigger one for you.
I am not gonna lecture you on the directional electromagnetic lobe creation with varied frequencies!

Because they wanted us to make the available upgrade to Su 35s Irbis-E PESA now and upgrade later to the Su 57 AESA, to have common radar or common techs in MKI and FGFA.
That's even LMs sales pitch for the F16 B70 too, because the APG 81 is based on the techs of the F35 AESA.

Can't believe folks on this forum actually fall for that kind of nonsense. At least IAF was smart enough to think that it's stupid to upgrade the radars on hundreds of its aircraft at billions of $$ cost, and then re-upgrade the radars on the same aircraft in 5-7 years time for an additional billions of $$ of cost!
Some corp makes a 'sale pitch' and some 'abdullah' dances to that tune!!

:biggrin2: Ever heard of a fighter called Rafale? Thales RBE 2 "PESA", was developed into RBE 2 AESA. But that's just marketing too right?

RBE2 is just a name. The AESA radar is called RBE2-AA.
If Astra mk2 employs a scramjet engine & a multi mode seeker, did they just 'convert Astra Mk1 into Mk2' just because the name sounds similar?

IT'S A PITY TO SEE FOLKS WHO PROBABLY SLEPT THROUGH THEIR SCIENCE CLASSES DURING HIGH SCHOOL BUT SUDDENLY WAKE UP TEN/TWENTY YEARS LATER AND EAGER TO COMMENT ON EVERY DAMN ISSUE!

 

[Enquirer]

Problem with nonsensical predictions by some not-so-aware members is that few other (also) not-so-aware members take it as a fact, and when those wishes don't materialize they'll all collectively rant that it's because of corruption in IAF/DRDO/MoD!

Su-30MKI will need a Russian AESA radar, unless the upgrades are delayed by 8-10 (to make an Indian variant)!!! Don't let some loud noises fool you.

Also, know that for every new version of radar that goes into a modern fighter like F35 etc the work would have started 20 years ago (even if a similar tech based radar already existed).
Northrup Grumman makes all radars for US fighters (not Lockheed Martin, as some have ignorantly pointed out)

 

[Sancho]

2052 for Jaguar and 2052 for LCA are exactly the same radar - no fancy 'scaling' up or 'scaling' down was done!!

Please don't make stuff up by the lack of arguments, even the EL 2032 that we used in Sea Harriers, Jags and LCA MK1 have different sizes, because the radome size differ.

Also the question is not if a bigger radar can or cannot be made.

Actually, that's what you are denying =>

An AESA radar is not like a conventional radar that you can just increase/decrease the radar

RBE2 is just a name. The AESA radar is called RBE2-AA.

Hehe, nice try.

From the beginning, the new AESA array was designed to conform to a ‘plug-and-play’ concept, using the same radar ‘back end’ and maximising the reuse of hardware and software. Because the basic PESA RBE2 variant now in service is already an electronically scanned radar, it uses the same beam steering functions as an AESA radar, and has similar beam agility, requiring much the same time management algorithms. Changes to adapt the radar to the new AESA array are thereby kept to a minimum, and there is no need for major modifications to the overall radar architecture.
Dassault claim that the passive and active arrays “are thus totally interchangeable, so that all French Rafales will have the capability to be equipped with an AESA”

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/rafale-first-with-thales-active-radar-214851/

 

[Enquirer]

Please don't make stuff up by the lack of arguments, even the EL 2032 that we used in Sea Harriers, Jags and LCA MK1 have different sizes, because the radome size differ.



Actually, that's what you are denying =>

Very mature to edit my comments and make it sound like something different! I clearly said multiple times, that it's a matter of putting in more WORK.

Hehe, nice try.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/rafale-first-with-thales-active-radar-214851/

Actually, this is a pathetic attempt to justify your rant.
The article says that the use and integration by the END USER would be seamless - so pilots don't need to retrain and operational tactics don't need to be requalified etc. But that doesn't mean they pass a PESA radar through a box and out comes an AESA radar!

It's useless to argue with someone who has no clue about the limits of his knowledge.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

2052 for Jaguar and 2052 for LCA are exactly the same radar - no fancy 'scaling' up or 'scaling' down was done!!

Also the question is not if a bigger radar can or cannot be made. It's a matter of redoing a tonne of development/testing! It's not like you want a bigger chappati and someone rolls a bigger one for you.
I am not gonna lecture you on the directional electromagnetic lobe creation with varied frequencies!

AESA radar is scaled up or down by adding additional T/R module, not by increasing size. That is the specialty of AESA radars. UTTAM has 700 T/R module and a scaled up one will have 1500. Changing size is a big hassle and that is why PESA and other older radars suffer from non-scalability.

Higher number of T/R module means higher the power. This is not just dependent on the radius of radome but also on the power from engine available, space available for cooling fluid etc.

 

[Enquirer]

You're an expert at echoing already stated facts and sneaking in your own erroneous conclusions!

AESA radar is scaled up or down by adding additional T/R module, not by increasing size. That is the specialty of AESA radars. UTTAM has 700 T/R module and a scaled up one will have 1500.

Utter BS!
I think everyone knows that T/R modules can be added to AESA radars - but whoever told you that the size won't increase with the addition of T/R modules. Do you even know what a T/R module is?

For Uttam to fit into Tejas with higher number of T/R modules, the fundamental element of Uttam i.e. the T/R module needs to be reworked (made smaller). I don't think anyone's working on that as of now!!!

Increasing the power input to existing T/R module to its peak capacity is also a possibility (if it's not operating at its peak already)

Changing size is a big hassle and that is why PESA and other older radars suffer from non-scalability.

Big pile of BS again!
Changing anything (literally the physical size or range or power etc) is much easier with a PESA radar than with an AESA radar! Additional T/R modules in AESA radar requires changes in the entire math of the system!

 

[Kay]

Super Su-30MKI Has Taken Shape

All the essential enhancements reqd for transforming the existing Su-30MKI into the Super Su-30MKI are now ready for installation/systems integration on either existing Su-30MKIs or even new-build Su-30MKIs (about 80 of which are required).

Under development since 2009 by the DRDO-owned Defence Avionics Research establishment (DARE) and by the Russia-based JSC V Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design, the avionics enhancements will now have to undergo flight certification trials at the Russia-based State Federal Unitary Enterprise Gromov Flight Research Institute at Zhukovsky.

DARE has sinmce 2009 been developing various elements of the mission avionics suite, which include the following:


SAMTEL-HAL Display Systems has completed developing panoramic AMLCDs for installation on the tandem-seat cockpit.


JSC V Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design has already developed an X-band ASESA-MMR variant of the NO-11M Bars PESA-MMR that currently equips the Su-30MKI.



The X-band AESA-MMR will thus enable the Super Su-30MKI cockpit crew to perform interleaved operations concurrently.

The 101KS-V IRST sensor will be the same as that on the Su-56 MRCA.

The countermeasures dispensers will for the first time be able to launch chaff cartridges supplied by UK-based Chemring. Previously, only flare cartridges could be launched.

Also to be installed will be RAFAEL's BNET-AR SDR, which functions as both a communications radio, as well as an operational tactical data-link.

And finally, the propulsion system too will be enhanced, with the AL-31FP turbofans giving way to the AL-41F-1S from NPO Saturn.

In charge of overall systems integration will be the Russia-based FSUE State Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Systems, or GosNIIAS. Altogether, two flying prototypes will be subjected to about 200 hours of flight-tests, which if begun by this year-end, should be completed by late 2020.

The Super Su-30MKI airframe will also be flight-certified for flying terrain-hugging flight profiles (about 100 metres ASL), thanks to the terrain avoidance mode of operation of the AESA-MMR. Existing Su-30MKIs are not able to fly ultra low-level flight profiles since the NO-11M PESA-MMR does not have the terrain avoidance operating mode.

https://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2018/08/super-su-30mki-has-taken-shape.html?m=1

Super Sukhoi should have it's own thread.

 

[Enquirer]

Super Sukhoi should have it's own thread.

At this point in Su-30MKI's life, what's there to discuss about the aircraft other than the upgrade?
This thread when started 6 years ago was done to initiate discussion on Super Sukhoi (check the post!)
As such, it makes no sense to create a new thread at this point!

 

[Kay]

At this point in Su-30MKI's life, what's there to discuss about the aircraft other than the upgrade?
This thread when started 6 years ago was done to initiate discussion on Super Sukhoi (check the post!)
As such, it makes no sense to create a new thread at this point!

MKI is the star of IAF - So, plenty to talk about - Nirbhay integration, Brahmos NG integration, improving availability, TOT for components.
My point was that Super Sukhoi upgrade will turn this bird into a very different beast altogether and there are many possibilities - stealthy Silent Sukhoi vs missile totting Sukhoi 2040c vs Sukhoi with Weapons Pod and so on.

 

[Sancho]

It's useless to argue with someone who has no clue about the limits of his knowledge.

Quite ironic from someone who simply couldn't admit to be wrong, but outright denying something, is not an argument!

Btw, I found the old proposal for MKIs radar upgrade too =>

1. Phase PESA upgrade
2. Phase changing the antenna to an AESA, just as the RBE 2 PESA example
3. Phase new AESA based on the FGFA radar

Now with FGFA cancelled, it will be interesting to see, what Russia is ready to propose now and most importantly, how long a decision will take with the government in election mode.

 

[Sancho]

MKI is the star of IAF - So, plenty to talk about - Nirbhay integration, Brahmos NG integration, improving availability, TOT for components.
My point was that Super Sukhoi upgrade will turn this bird into a very different beast altogether and there are many possibilities - stealthy Silent Sukhoi vs missile totting Sukhoi 2040c vs Sukhoi with Weapons Pod and so on.

We already know most of it, since the main part is the overhaul of the airframe and it's subsystems.
We know that apart from radar and engine upgrades, the modernisation of the EW is the most important part, to bring it to the top again. ECM pods were already tested by DRDO, MAWS and integrated jammers at least planned too.
Cockpit will get new displays, we know that Astra, Brahmos and Spice 2000 will be part of it, if available by then also SAAW...

Weapon pods would had been nice, especially with the fuel tank advantage of the MKI, but that remains a dream for us MKI fans. But if possible, the twin launchers for BVR missiles at the centerline, similar to Su 35. Hiding 4 x Astra between the air intakes/engines, could be an advantage.