Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[abhay rajput]

That image was taken before 2000 when mki was under evaluation.

So IAF tweeted 20 years old image.. I don't believe that at all. And if you look at the picture, it says ""picture of the day" Also I know very well which jammer is used on su30 far better than any of you know. It's sap518 .

 

[abhay rajput]

To summarize :

1) SAP 518 - Heavy (drop tank size), Doesn't interface with Tarang RWR properly.



https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/how-a-secretive-drdo-lab-is-saving-the-iaf-su-30mki.html

2) ELM 8222 - Light (SRAAM size), Interfaces with Tarang RWR properly, full integration with core electronics not possible (source code ?)



https://www.orfonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Special_Report.pdf

Conclusion : ELM 8222 is better because it actually works. If your jammer messes with your RWR then its being more of a hindrance than help.

If I remember correctly these guys were the same people who were saying no awacs was on the air. Elta jammer don't works when bars radar is on , it's not properly integrated . Sap518 problems with rwr was solved way back. Do you know why because rwr is made by DRDO ... I repeat sap518 jammer is being used on su30 and here is the proof of that . Elta jammer is useless on su30 because it's interfere with radar itself.

 

[mist_consecutive]

If I remember correctly these guys were the same people who were saying no awacs was on the air. Elta jammer don't works when bars radar is on , it's not properly integrated . Sap518 problems with rwr was solved way back. Do you know why because rwr is made by DRDO ... I repeat sap518 jammer is being used on su30 and here is the proof of that . Elta jammer is useless on su30 because it's interfere with radar itself.

Elta jammer is useless on su30 because it's interfere with radar itself

Can anyone give me source of this statement/claim ?

 

[porky_kicker]

I'm not sure of the current status,but there is a jv(between samtel and HAL) called samtel-HAL which won the tender to develop hmd's.

Already this company had delivered multi functional displays for hal.

https://m.facebook.com/NextGenerationWeapons/posts/1201898833178947


https://www.samtel-hal.com/product_services.php

https://web.archive.org/web/2015112...el-thales-avionics-jv-officially-incorporated

Thanks
Well I found it out , it's sura k

 

[porky_kicker]

Mki doesn't have an hmd. They only have an hms called Sura-K

Yes found it out later
Thanks

 

[mist_consecutive]

Can anyone give me a credible source for this claim?

Elta jammer is useless on su30 because it's interference with radar itself

So I found this article, where it was written
https://www.orfonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Special_Report.pdf

And tbh, after reading this, I felt I can take on Su30MKI flying in a chopper armed with a crossbow. And if you dig a little deeper, you will be completely convinced that IAF is a sham organization managed by kids who still wear their diapers.

And after researching a bit about their authors, namely Abhijit Iyer Mitra who is an author at Print India, seems like he is a commie, or at least behind a strong western defence lobby.

Also where this article is posted, Observer Research Foundation is an independent think-tank apparently. A.k.a Armchair generals like us.

So, just saying, there is no veracity of information published in that article.

 

[Neptune]

That image was taken before 2000 when mki was under evaluation.

If you look closely at the picture the IAF tweeted, the forward port side of the fuselage had the Indian roundel. From what I understand, and correct me if I’m wrong, the original SU-30MKI had a Russian paint scheme and symbols. Apart from that an Indian test pilots confirmed the SAP-518 to be on MKI, although he didn’t specify if it was for testing.

Here is what I believe to be the original MKI, the picture the IAF tweeted seems to be a different aircraft:

Some information about how the system operates:

https://www.airrecognition.com/inde...jamming-pods-following-syrian-experience.html


SAP-518 selects the most dangerous targets and produces effective programs to suppress them. The device uses the so-called digital frequency memory technology. Multichannel memory devices can receive and store hundreds of radio signals. The system can thus generate dummy targets which are difficult to distinguish from the real ones. The signals are actually radio portraits of various targets. The system actually misinforms the adversary and it has to spend a major resource to track dummy targets which decreases the aiming efficiency.

Expert Alexey Leonkov believes the jamming stations will considerably increase Su-30SM survivability in the areas of air defense operation.

"The main SAP-518 mission is to protect an individual aircraft. It operates as an antiradar and constantly sends distorted information to adversary radars. It reflects the signal with delay, distorts the distance to the target, as well as speed and angle position. It impedes the radar in detecting targets, determining their parameters and forming the necessary information for the weapons," he told the Izvestia.




Something else that that is interesting is that there was talk or rumors that the Malaysians chose the SAP-518 over the French PAJ FA and of course now they do use the jammers:

Here is also a picture of an SU-30 flying with up to 11 hard points with weapons and the jammers. Some here were saying the SU-30 can barely fly with those jammers

 

[vampyrbladez]

If I remember correctly these guys were the same people who were saying no awacs was on the air. Elta jammer don't works when bars radar is on , it's not properly integrated . Sap518 problems with rwr was solved way back. Do you know why because rwr is made by DRDO ... I repeat sap518 jammer is being used on su30 and here is the proof of that . Elta jammer is useless on su30 because it's interfere with radar itself.

Then you don't have any idea about how a jammer works.

Actually no. You are true in saying that jammers send out signal to block the incoming signals. But in doing so, it does send an array of radio waves differing in frequency and wavelength too. This burst of alternating and diversification of waves does create a huge radio noise for the seeker. It doesn't completely hide you from the seeker, but what it does is that, it would make the seeker so confuse that it would not be able to distinguish any target clearly.
It doesn't interfere with you own system because its not a transceiver, instead its only a transmitter. A very good example could be found in the convoy of any VVIP. Whenever such a convoy pass through, you might have noticed that if you are listening to any FM station or talking on phone, for that time being there would be only static. But the person sitting in that vehicle carrying jammer would be able to make their call without any problem.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Can anyone give me a credible source for this claim?



So I found this article, where it was written
https://www.orfonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Special_Report.pdf

And tbh, after reading this, I felt I can take on Su30MKI flying in a chopper armed with a crossbow. And if you dig a little deeper, you will be completely convinced that IAF is a sham organization managed by kids who still wear their diapers.

And after researching a bit about their authors, namely Abhijit Iyer Mitra who is an author at Print India, seems like he is a commie, or at least behind a strong western defence lobby.

Also where this article is posted, Observer Research Foundation is an independent think-tank apparently. A.k.a Armchair generals like us.

So, just saying, there is no veracity of information published in that article.

Moreover, flight crews consistently referred to the high false-alarm rate of the Tarang RWRs, which abruptly activated counter-measures, creating a whole new set of problems and additional workload for flight crews.

The problems highlighted were focused on the RWR in this instance and not on the ELM 8222 SPJ.

 

[abhay rajput]

Then you don't have any idea about how a jammer works.

Okay sir, as you say I am not here to convince anyone. I thought elta ones is SPJ

 

[vampyrbladez]

Okay sir, as you say I am not here to convince anyone. I thought elta ones is SPJ

ELM 8222 and SAP 518 are both self protection jammers since they cannot integrate with mission computers and be used for EW roles. You need something like this to have a EA 18G growler equivalent.

Gripen E/F EW configuration

 

[abhay rajput]

ELM 8222 and SAP 518 are both self protection jammers since they cannot integrate with mission computers and be used for EW roles. You need something like this to have a EA 18G growler equivalent.

Gripen E/F EW configuration

Please go talk to someone who knows about this stuff. These pods need to integrate with rwr/radars . If they aren't then you can not use radar/rwr because they mess with it.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Please go talk to someone who knows about this stuff. These pods need to integrate with rwr/radars . If they aren't then you can not use radar/rwr because they mess with it.

SAP 518 interferes with RWR performance. EL 8222 cannot be integrated into mission computers. This is because MKIs aren't designed for Western or Indian hardware/software. Even the RWR was put there using workarounds. It's like scripting games for PS4 using the old Quake engine.

 

[abhay rajput]

SAP 518 interferes with RWR performance. EL 8222 cannot be integrated into mission computers. This is because MKIs aren't designed for Western or Indian hardware/software. Even the RWR was put there using workarounds. It's like scripting games for PS4 using the old Quake engine.

Then why are you claiming that you don't need to integrate both of them with radars and rwr. These systems complement each other. Okay elta 8222 can work alone but then you need to switch off your radars and most probably rwr. It's of no use in A2A role where radar is required. Sap518 is integrated with radar. The problems with rwr was solved way back in 2014-15 .

 

[porky_kicker]

If you look closely at the picture the IAF tweeted, the forward port side of the fuselage had the Indian roundel. From what I understand, and correct me if I’m wrong, the original SU-30MKI had a Russian paint scheme and symbols. Apart from that an Indian test pilots confirmed the SAP-518 to be on MKI, although he didn’t specify if it was for testing.

Here is what I believe to be the original MKI, the picture the IAF tweeted seems to be a different aircraft:

View attachment 45546



Some information about how the system operates:

https://www.airrecognition.com/inde...jamming-pods-following-syrian-experience.html


SAP-518 selects the most dangerous targets and produces effective programs to suppress them. The device uses the so-called digital frequency memory technology. Multichannel memory devices can receive and store hundreds of radio signals. The system can thus generate dummy targets which are difficult to distinguish from the real ones. The signals are actually radio portraits of various targets. The system actually misinforms the adversary and it has to spend a major resource to track dummy targets which decreases the aiming efficiency.

Expert Alexey Leonkov believes the jamming stations will considerably increase Su-30SM survivability in the areas of air defense operation.

"The main SAP-518 mission is to protect an individual aircraft. It operates as an antiradar and constantly sends distorted information to adversary radars. It reflects the signal with delay, distorts the distance to the target, as well as speed and angle position. It impedes the radar in detecting targets, determining their parameters and forming the necessary information for the weapons," he told the Izvestia.




Something else that that is interesting is that there was talk or rumors that the Malaysians chose the SAP-518 over the French PAJ FA and of course now they do use the jammers:

View attachment 45547



Here is also a picture of an SU-30 flying with up to 11 hard points with weapons and the jammers. Some here were saying the SU-30 can barely fly with those jammers


View attachment 45548

FYI flying is different from doing combat maneuvers especially dogfights.

Kinematic characteristics of an aircraft degrades with weapons load . Some weapons load configuration will cut into the flight combat performance way beyond operationally permissible limits . Good for OEM sales pitch and propaganda only.

The SAP pod is a ungainly design , it's aerodynamic efficiency could have been increased with a sleeker and smaller form factor. Unfortunately Russians are way behind west in miniturisation of electronics.

Western wing tip mounted jammers

Sleek and small form factor with better aerodynamic performance

Now compare russian SAP wing tip mounted jammer

To estimate the size of jammer note the humans standing next to it

Now compare it to drdo wing tip mounted HBJ

DRDO HBJ jammer has smaller form factor and hence aerodynamically will create lesser drag and flight performance issues

 

[Sridhar_TN]

That aircraft is growler, a dedicated fighter sized EW platform. Its high time for us to start an in house EW aircraft program. Like awacs, EW aircraft too will perform an important role in aerial warfare.

Yes! EW is the need of the hour. I’m reading numerous reports that the IAF is slowly learning this albeit the hardway since last years encounter.
They are supposedly focusing a lot on Tejas mk2’s EW systems to surpass that of the mig 29upg.
For whatever reason, they hold the UPG’s ew systems to a gold standard.

 

[Hydra3]

Yes! EW is the need of the hour. I’m reading numerous reports that the IAF is slowly learning this albeit the hardway since last years encounter.
They are supposedly focusing a lot on Tejas mk2’s EW systems to surpass that of the mig 29upg.
For whatever reason, they hold the UPG’s ew systems to a gold standard.

The aircrafts you mentioned all are EW capable aircraft, none are EW attack aircraft. Currently there IS only one production EW attack platform, that is Growler. There reports that sweden is developing an EW attack version of Gripen.
If we have started the ground works bit earlier, we could have made few, a dozen of two or three MKI airframe for EW attack role.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

The aircrafts you mentioned all are EW capable aircraft, none are EW attack aircraft. Currently there IS only one production EW attack platform, that is Growler. There reports that sweden is developing an EW attack version of Gripen.
If we have started the ground works bit earlier, we could have made few, a dozen of two or three MKI airframe for EW attack role.

Why an mki? Why not a low radar cross section Tejas?
Mki is a heavyweight radar illuminating fighter. Plus, no need for begging Russia to for bs own integrations

 

[Hydra3]

Why an mki? Why not a low radar cross section Tejas?
Mki is a heavyweight radar illuminating fighter. Plus, no need for begging Russia to for bs own integrations

EW attack needs hell lot of power to powerup the additional jammers they are using. Single engined tejas, howmuch power it can generate?
Also it needs re working on its electronic equipment & connectors, since the the electrical power it transmitted to its jammers are huge, regular electrical wires will burn. The highpower rated wires add the weight.
The EW attack aircraft needs to travel along with deep strike, medium fighter & low tier aircraft like tejas deoends upon mission. So the EW attack aircraft dies require range compatible with mki or mirage or future rafale. Tejas cant satisfy the range.

 

[Hydra3]

Why an mki? Why not a low radar cross section Tejas?
Mki is a heavyweight radar illuminating fighter. Plus, no need for begging Russia to for bs own integrations

And for an EW aircraft, your RCS doesn't matter much, you anyway going to blind the the enemy radars, both ground & fighter radars.