Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[HariPrasad-1]

That's mid-life upgrade. But it'll be a crime if the new planes are essentially the same vintage shit & not latest Su-30SM/Super Sukhoi standard.

Already we made no effort to incorporate anything new in the follow-up of batches of HAL made Su-30. They were allowed to alter its airframe to let it carry Brahmos, but not to have it made it of Indian composites like Tejas, making it lighter & stealthier!

Composite will require change in airframe. May be few parts can be replaced. It should be seen whether that makes any noticeable difference.

 

[binayak95]

So, what did they contribute?
I can't find any except mission software. For rest, its an upgraded MiG-21 because Pak can't afford better.

JahahHah. An upgraded MiG21 is far better than the Junk they call Thunder.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

So, what did they contribute?
I can't find any except mission software. For rest, its an upgraded MiG-21 because Pak can't afford better.

JF17 is not upgraded Mig21. Its wing structure and fuselage shape is quite different.

The contribution of Pakistan is writing 2 dimension FBW in C++ coding language (good planes have 3 dimension FBW & written in ADA language optimised for aeronautical stuff), manufacturing of some metal parts like tail, wings, electric wires, paint, fancy lights etc.

 

[rone]

JF17 is not upgraded Mig21. Its wing structure and fuselage shape is quite different.

The contribution of Pakistan is writing 2 dimension FBW in C++ coding language (good planes have 3 dimension FBW & written in ADA language optimised for aeronautical stuff), manufacturing of some metal parts like tail, wings, electric wires, paint, fancy lights etc.

Guys don't underestimate Ur enemy's ,yep jf17 is 3rd gen fighter with 4th gen avoincs but in war time who have better logistics have more stories and better operational capability, in short contest with su30,m2k alone enough for Pak airforce,but the number of stories we can pull out in a offensive style make the who will win the war, yep they use f16 as counter to our sir superiority fighter's but it's I. Hands of pilot who win the fight

 

[smestarz]

With Brahmos NG which is smaller and lighter, Su-30 MKI will be able to carry upto 5. But yes the Su-30 MKI that could carry the original Brahmo can it be possible for it to carry Nirbhay, as with that we can target important cities of Mainland China which otherwise are not possible to hit with any plane we have or will have.

48 Super MKI from Nashik is more than welcome, let's be smart and make them all Brahmos-able.

Also if the recent uptick in hostilities, it is imperative Govt. push for quick induction of Nirbhay and other new gen weapons.

 

[no smoking]

JF-17 is supplied in kits, that Pakis assemble!

That is big breakthrough for them already. As a country with only 1/4 of India land and 1/6 of India population, it would be stupid if they try to match every India capability.

 

[no smoking]

But yes the Su-30 MKI that could carry the original Brahmo can it be possible for it to carry Nirbhay, as with that we can target important cities of Mainland China which otherwise are not possible to hit with any plane we have or will have.

Sending Su-30MKI arming with big cruise missiles through Chinese air defense system 500km deep into China to attack any major city (1000km away from border) is suicide.

 

[Why so serious?]

Su-30MKI gets indigenous 3D printed fuel system elbow part
Anil Urs Updated on February 23, 2019

The Su-30 MKI aircraft would be fitted with indigenously certified 3D printed fuel system elbow part for the first time using additive manufacturing technology.

The certification was handed over by P Jayapal, CE (CEMILAC) to Arup Chatterjee, Director (Engineering and R&D) at the Aero India 2019 on Saturday. The 3D printed fuel system elbow part is certified by CEMILAC. As part of the Phase-IV Su-30 MKI manufacturing under Transfer of Technology from Russia there is a shortage of some castings for manufacturing of components. Owing to this HAL has chosen Fuel system elbow as a pilot component for fabrication through additive manufacturing process.

Dr T R Rajanna, CD (AERDC-HAL) handed over the certified elbow part to Huliraj R V, CD (AURDC-HAL) in the presence of R Madhavan, CMD, HAL.

 

[chetan chopade]

That is big breakthrough for them already. As a country with only 1/4 of India land and 1/6 of India population, it would be stupid if they try to match every India capability.

bhosadiwale paki mulle1 000 me se 2 log bhi engineer banege hi...aur yahi assembly wale kaam karenge madachod bhikhari:bounce:

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

That is big breakthrough for them already. As a country with only 1/4 of India land and 1/6 of India population, it would be stupid if they try to match every India capability.

Let us not pretend like this. Country like UK is much smaller and yet has had greater technology 70 years back than what pakistan has now.

Pakistan has absolutely no useful technology,not even 15% of India. Pakistan has no technology to even make car engine, basic electronics, pharmaceuticals etc. This is despite the enormous support it gets from oil rich countries for defence.

Sending Su-30MKI arming with big cruise missiles through Chinese air defense system 500km deep into China to attack any major city (1000km away from border) is suicide.

Obviously, sending bulky planes with bulky payload over long distance is suicide. India and China can't fight conventional aerial battle or ground battle. The plains of Tibet and himalaya hinder this.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

J
The contribution of Pakistan is writing 2 dimension FBW in C++ coding language (good planes have 3 dimension FBW & written in ADA language optimised for aeronautical stuff), manufacturing of some metal parts like tail, wings, electric wires, paint, fancy lights etc.

C++ and Ada both are just tools to express your instruction to computer in a human friendly way. Both languages have their advantages and disadvantages but you can't say a product is inferior just because it is written in C++.

Both languages have their advantages and disadvantages. It all depends on the person who is writing the program and amount of validation and QC analysis is done on the program

Modern C++ standard C++17 is very cutting edge.

Much of the F-35's software is written in C and C+.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

C++ and Ada both are just tools to express your instruction to computer in a human friendly way. Both languages have their advantages and disadvantages but you can't say a product is inferior just because it is written in C++.

Both languages have their advantages and disadvantages. It all depends on the person who is writing the program and amount of validation and QC analysis is done on the program

Modern C++ standard C++17 is very cutting edge.

Much of the F-35's software is written in C and C+.

Avionics can have C++ but FBW is generally ADA for better flight controls. Avionics tend to be integrated across different platforms, many even developed by third parties. So, integration using C++ is OK. Otherwise, some areas require ADA as the C++ does not have all the syntax needed for coding flight instructions. And as I said, the FBW is 2 dimensional

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Let us not pretend like this. Country like UK is much smaller and yet has had greater technology 70 years back than what pakistan has now.

Your comparison is like between orange and mango. In UK industrial revolution started in 1760. Lets not compare UK with their former colonies.

Pakistan has absolutely no useful technology,not even 15% of India. Pakistan has no technology to even make car engine, basic electronics, pharmaceuticals etc. This is despite the enormous support it gets from oil rich countries for defence.

That's not quite true. Technology does not revolve around car engine, basic electronics, pharmaceuticals, etc. The have their own strengths like they have a very good sports goods export industry, they make good surgical instruments like scalpel, gauge, etc. They also have a good agro based industry.
Just remember not everyone need to make iPhone, Audi or latest medicine. In this globalized world it is easier to import them.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

That's not quite true. Technology does not revolve around car engine, basic electronics, pharmaceuticals, etc. The have their own strengths like they have a very good sports goods export industry, they make good surgical instruments like scalpel, gauge, etc. They also have a good agro based industry.
Just remember not everyone need to make iPhone, Audi or latest medicine. In this globalized world it is easier to import them.

IPR per capita of Pakistan is around 1/20th of India or Sri Lanka. A reflection of low R&D spending.
There are lot of engineering products, electronics, softwares, aviation, alloys, power plants l & medical system where they lack badly.

Though being "technologically advanced" is a loosely defined term.

Post WW2, both Asia and Africa were badly broken. During the period of economic resurrection which is still going on, Asia did nothing but either inspired from or copied western technology just like west might have done in medieval era. It's perfectly fine.

Making accurate surgical instruments & gauges at cheap rates isn't a sort of great technological achievement (lot other lower middle income countries do).

We know what kind of technologies we are talking about. They are far more sophisticated, sensitive & kept classified by countries and determine political power of a nation.

Such capabilities are built over long duration of time with dedication on R&D. Their re determination isn't impossible but takes long for sure.

Have a good read:
http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/rankings/growth-projections/

So, for the case of actual question, yes, Pakistan lacks in lot of crucial & primitive technologies in many fields. I don't need to be anti Pakistan to say that. Metallurgy, Automotive sector, aerospace, shipping, medical & space sector and dozens of sector are enough to back this statement.

Economic Complexity will remain a big factor in determining country's capabilities. Countries with same income levels but different kind of products determine their capabilities. Bangladesh & Pakistan switching to basic commodities are outpaced by Vietnam, India & Philippines & technological output wise. Here was the reason.

A very simple question, Pakistani technological inputs in FC-1?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Avionics can have C++ but FBW is generally ADA for better flight controls.

How does programming in Ada gives better flight control? Flight control is just an algorithm which accepts input from several different sensor like gyroscope, accelerator, yokes, etc. to compute optimum control for aircraft in form of thrust, rudder position, etc. How will use of any particular language to express this algorithm have significant effect on output of the algorithm If your algorithm is having noticeable effect due to change your programming language the their is an issue with your algorithm.
A badly written C++ program is just as bad as badly written Ada program.
The reason LCA uses Ada was because DRDO and HAl was taking talking help from Lockheed Martin to develop flight controls (Fly-by-wire system).
Ada was developed by US DOD as they wanted to standardize their programming interface (language) as over 450 different programming languages used by the DoD at that time.

Avionics tend to be integrated across different platforms, many even developed by third parties. So, integration using C++ is OK. Otherwise, some areas require ADA as the C++ does not have all the syntax needed for coding flight instructions. And as I said, the FBW is 2 dimensional

That's not how interfacing different system work. Aircraft has multiple redundant channels of a data-link system. Different systems communicate over this data-link. You need to match the protocol over different layers (refer ISO model) for them to communicate successfully. Again programming languages don't matter, just how you handle the protocol and data matters.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

IPR per capita of Pakistan is around 1/20th of India or Sri Lanka. A reflection of low R&D spending.
There are lot of engineering products, electronics, softwares, aviation, alloys, power plants l & medical system where they lack badly.

Though being "technologically advanced" is a loosely defined term.

Post WW2, both Asia and Africa were badly broken. During the period of economic resurrection which is still going on, Asia did nothing but either inspired from or copied western technology just like west might have done in medieval era. It's perfectly fine.

Making accurate surgical instruments & gauges at cheap rates isn't a sort of great technological achievement (lot other lower middle income countries do).

We know what kind of technologies we are talking about. They are far more sophisticated, sensitive & kept classified by countries and determine political power of a nation.

Such capabilities are built over long duration of time with dedication on R&D. Their re determination isn't impossible but takes long for sure.

Have a good read:
http://atlas.cid.harvard.edu/rankings/growth-projections/

So, for the case of actual question, yes, Pakistan lacks in lot of crucial & primitive technologies in many fields. I don't need to be anti Pakistan to say that. Metallurgy, Automotive sector, aerospace, shipping, medical & space sector and dozens of sector are enough to back this statement.

Economic Complexity will remain a big factor in determining country's capabilities. Countries with same income levels but different kind of products determine their capabilities. Bangladesh & Pakistan switching to basic commodities are outpaced by Vietnam, India & Philippines & technological output wise. Here was the reason.

A very simple question, Pakistani technological inputs in FC-1?

I never said they were doing great. All I said they don't need to do great in all fields. Even if they hold on to their strengths like agro based industry, sport goods industry, mercenarism, terrorism, etc. they will get by comfortably.

 

[no smoking]

Let us not pretend like this. Country like UK is much smaller and yet has had greater technology 70 years back than what pakistan has now.

That is a funny comparison:
If we push the time 5 years earlier, UK was still a country much bigger than Pakistan, Pakistan and India were still a part of UK;

This is despite the enormous support it gets from oil rich countries for defence.

Well, Paksitan has to spend every cent they have on the confrontation against an enormous neighbor which also got enormous support from outside in the history.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Your comparison is like between orange and mango. In UK industrial revolution started in 1760. Lets not compare UK with their former colonies.

That's not quite true. Technology does not revolve around car engine, basic electronics, pharmaceuticals, etc. The have their own strengths like they have a very good sports goods export industry, they make good surgical instruments like scalpel, gauge, etc. They also have a good agro based industry.
Just remember not everyone need to make iPhone, Audi or latest medicine. In this globalized world it is easier to import them.

Making scalpel and medical tools is not high Technology. Neither is making sport goods.

How does programming in Ada gives better flight control? Flight control is just an algorithm which accepts input from several different sensor like gyroscope, accelerator, yokes, etc. to compute optimum control for aircraft in form of thrust, rudder position, etc. How will use of any particular language to express this algorithm have significant effect on output of the algorithm If your algorithm is having noticeable effect due to change your programming language the their is an issue with your algorithm.
A badly written C++ program is just as bad as badly written Ada program.
The reason LCA uses Ada was because DRDO and HAl was taking talking help from Lockheed Martin to develop flight controls (Fly-by-wire system).
Ada was developed by US DOD as they wanted to standardize their programming interface (language) as over 450 different programming languages used by the DoD at that time.

That's not how interfacing different system work. Aircraft has multiple redundant channels of a data-link system. Different systems communicate over this data-link. You need to match the protocol over different layers (refer ISO model) for them to communicate successfully. Again programming languages don't matter, just how you handle the protocol and data matters.

It is true that programming language is just another language. But just like in manly language we find that there are some coding language more suited for certain type if codes.
So, it does matter which language you write in for specialised application

Well, Paksitan has to spend every cent they have on the confrontation against an enormous neighbor which also got enormous support from outside in the history.

Pakistan is the one who wants confrontation, not the other way around

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Making scalpel and medical tools is not high Technology. Neither is making sport goods.

That's the point, not everyone is expected to make high technological stuff. You can improve your economy even using basic stuff. All the bravado that you need high technical base for strong economy and good quality of life is false is false.

It is true that programming language is just another language. But just like in manly language we find that there are some coding language more suited for certain type if codes.
So, it does matter which language you write in for specialised application

What benefits does Ada offer over C++ for design on flight control system? Just because US DoD was using it in 80s and 90s doesn't make it a holy grail. As per your logic F-35 must have lots of problems as majority of it system was developed in C/C++ that also on COTS processor.
For someone who have used both languages (though I have more experience C/C++ (industrial use) than in Ada (hobbyist project)) both languages are comparable. Whatever can be done in Ada can also be done in C/C++ and vice versa. The only downside may be that you may have to write a little extra code.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

That's the point, not everyone is expected to make high technological stuff. You can improve your economy even using basic stuff. All the bravado that you need high technical base for strong economy and good quality of life is false is false.

Who is telling that economy needs high technology? I am strictly speaking on defence. Even Saudi Arabian economy or Singaporean economy is quite good with hardly any advanced technology. Don't mix up things. Speaking of economy in a defence conversation is like talking Chinese grammar in a class for English grammar!

What benefits does Ada offer over C++ for design on flight control system? Just because US DoD was using it in 80s and 90s doesn't make it a holy grail. As per your logic F-35 must have lots of problems as majority of it system was developed in C/C++ that also on COTS processor.
For someone who have used both languages (though I have more experience C/C++ (industrial use) than in Ada (hobbyist project)) both languages are comparable. Whatever can be done in Ada can also be done in C/C++ and vice versa. The only downside may be that you may have to write a little extra code.

This is like saying that whatever is spoken in english can be spoken in Hindi or Arab. But the problem is that Arab does not have the word "P". Hindi and Arab both don't have third gender. So, what you said in english can't be fully translated in Arab or Hindi though a good translation is possible. Similar difference exists in coding languages.

Most of the interfacing between equipments is similar to those in other domains like modern cars, IoT gadgets etc and can be written in C++. But some specific codes for flight controls needs ADA for exact application as ADA has the requisite library for that. F35 has about 5-6% ADA codes and about 6-7% assembly codes. Rest may be simple C & C++. But it can't be entirely C or C++ for full optimisation