Sukhoi PAK FA

[asianobserve]

An Indian delegation was inspecting an SU-57 at MAKS quite different and refined from the earlier models. The Indians will likely, in my opinion, order the SU-57 once the second stage engines are available. The fiasco with Pakistan just solidifies the need for an SU-57 type aircraft. It’s not that the SU-30 can’t handle the Pakistani Air Force but rather that the SU-57 would dominate the enemy much more effectively and the Rafale is too few in numbers and will take a while to fully fulfill the contract.

How can Su-57 dominate the Pakistanis when it's not even stealthy? Russia is even hesitant to order it in masse.

 

[Flying Dagger]

An Indian delegation was inspecting an SU-57 at MAKS quite different and refined from the earlier models. The Indians will likely, in my opinion, order the SU-57 once the second stage engines are available. The fiasco with Pakistan just solidifies the need for an SU-57 type aircraft. It’s not that the SU-30 can’t handle the Pakistani Air Force but rather that the SU-57 would dominate the enemy much more effectively and the Rafale is too few in numbers and will take a while to fully fulfill the contract.

Nope and Rafale will be the Top Gun of IAF .

 

[Neptune]

How can Su-57 dominate the Pakistanis when it's not even stealthy? Russia is even hesitant to order it in masse.

I’m sure Sukhoi can use you personally since you apparently tested the radar cross section of the SU-57 with your eyes. Sukhoi was stupid to hire scientists, engineers and mathematics and even dumber to invest all that time and money in testing the SU-57 in an anechoic chamber

There is no such thing as “stealthy”, that is an arbitrary term. You can only reduce the radar cross section of an aircraft, no aircraft is invisible despite what ignoramuses like you may believe. Range, frequencies and angle or hemisphere all effect RCS. The SU-57 has a greatly reduced RCS, what the true figure is, under x frequency and aspect angle is classified. The RCS is reduced many folds, that is enough to give it the decisive edge over any F-16 or Blunder.

As for SU-57 vs the F-16 or Blunder. This is a joke, neither would even know the SU-57 is there before they would get knocked out of the sky. The weapons alone would allow the SU-57 to engage at up to 192km head on and its obviously apparent who would see and lock into who first.

The Pakistanis barely could even detect a Mig-21 until it was 7+km inside Pakistani airspace at a time they had 25 aircraft, including AWACS airborne, they also got embarrassed in Afghanistan by old Mig-23. I’m sure SU-57 pilots would be shivering at mighty propaganda Air Force.

 

[Steven Rogers]

I will give you a break for being ignorant. Fact the SU-57 was filmed at Khmeimim Air Base. I will even go one step further and and show satellite images from a third party showing the aircraft was in-fact in Syria:


View attachment 39014


Here is the Russian MOD confirming the aircraft hit targets over Syria:

View attachment 39015

A close up:

View attachment 39016








You literally just made all that up. You have zero to proof of any kind to support your claim. All we know about the izdeliye 30 is that its far more efficient and powerful then the AL-41 or AL-31. The izdeliye 30 will be 3 decades newer then the M88, so its hard to believe it will have any advantage anywhere. Do you think the Russian are taking this long to develop an engine that will only be marginally better then an AL-31? Who needs to get real?

From a standpoints or thrust/by-pass ratio alone the izdeliye 30 will have many strategic advantages such as supercruise and higher altitude. This means the aircraft can stay in a fight longer, have the kinetic advantages of outrunning missiles without need for afterburners and operate high above enemy defenses which also allow the aircraft weapons to achieve greater range. India could have used these advantages against Pakistan earlier this year.








Again do you have anything to back your claims with. You have literally just made claims without proof this entire time. What is this “better” IR suppression the M88 has? Don’t expect to make random claims and not be challenged.








The SU-57 can supercruise even with the current engine. As for you other claim:


View attachment 39018










The SU-57 has had an AESA since 2011 which was first installed on the T-50-3. There is no images with the random off, all we have is video/images of the radar being tested in labs; however are you suggesting that Russians have lied about having AESA or they sent an SU-57 into combat without radar? Amazing....








The SU-57 has the worlds first side lobe radars on a fighter. How would you of all people know what they can or cannot do? About radar size, active radar homing missiles have radar too but the side lobe radar of the SU-57 is too small? The side lobe radar which the prototypes have is around 358 TR modules are but are “small” according to you. Little is known about the radar but I do know one thing. The Rafale doesn’t have anything similar, and yes it is an advantage otherwise the Russians would not bother with the added cost, weight and development cost. Why wasn’t some much resources and money on something that won’t have large advantages?










I have not seen Thales publish any of the figures you posted and still they fall short of the N036 is 2/3 categories. At this point you are just throwing mud in hopes something sticks, you are randomly diverted the topic into delays and other such nonsense. Because we know the French have never had any delays in anything and their products have perfect reliably (sarcasm).








What do you know about the progress of those “systems”? You have some information that the public does not know?







And far superior in range, altitude, kinetic performance, low speed maneuvers, probably high speed maneuvers, longer range missiles, greater radar coverage and smaller RCS. It’s cute though that you think the little Rafale has a smaller RCS, range, altitude, etc. Very cute.

Let me pull the table out from underneath and ask you to name one thing the Rafale does better then the SU-57. Let’s not use speculation but known facts. Does it have any advantages? I can spare you the bandwith and say no.







How do you know the those sensors “underperform”? Russia has been tight lipped about the performance of any of the sensors. The SU-57 appears to have 360 degree IR sensors. The Rafale has nothing comparable, nor does it have anything near the radar coverage of the SU-57. Even the SU-35 detected the F-22s IR signature over Syria. Russian electric warfare systems also jammed US electric warfare aircraft and drones over Syria so their avionics/electrics warfare capabilities are better then you give them credit for:


F-22 IR tracked by SU-35.

View attachment 39017


https://georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2019/06/26/the-russian-edge-in-electronic-warfare/amp/


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna863931


https://amp.businessinsider.com/syria-electronic-warfare-us-planes-disabled-2018-4


Here are some of the functions and sensors. Many of these don’t exist on Rafale...sorry

View attachment 39019





What tall claims have they made? What specifically are you talking about? They have operational AESA in the SU-57 and they have many other land, sea and air platforms in which either have operational AESA or it’s under development. Again you have no arguments at all you just pivot the conversation and throw mud. You have only made erroneous claims.

You jumped up again without even realising what is stated....Anyways kindly explain us who waa flying Su57 in Syria(test pilots or Air force squadron level pilots),that will give enough detail if it was in a controlled or hostile environment....
Like i said you jumped up so early,Item-30 is a years away from getting operational,and the best alternative it is flying is Al41 which is not considered a fit for fifth gen aircraft as i have stated above...3re decades newer???No comments but laugh....
You should ask the french guy for the m88 cooling,as far as i know m88 has better cooling than anyother old gen engines.
Th Su57 can not "sustain" a super cruise with current engine.....
Su57 didnt had aesa even in 2011,neither did any russian fighter platform. The best it had was a suffering aesa on a mig29 airframe with abysmal performance and usage of older gen Trm(despite larger antenna)back then....Their aesa is still questionable in performance because they have not operationalised it on any platform while comparing it with west is even more tragic,French AESA is operational from more than 8 years now and americans now use aesa for over 2 decades so it is hilarious to compare that a country which still manufactures pesa radar on its modern fighter,not willing to make aesa radar,has immature trm technology(due to miniscule investment in it) will make equal efficient aesa as that of west.
Rafale still betters in terms of sensors compared to todays Su57 and that is a plain fact.

The radar's range depends upon inverse square law with the range,the density and size of emmitters do matter for a good gain and it decreases with the same,
a smaller antenna has smaller gain due to low output and smaller antenna. The side lobe antenna which you said is 1/6 of the main antenna and range is actually 1/36 in that regard if it operates independently(plain maths)the best usage is to operate along with the main radar and give it the flexibility of 180 degrees for maintaining the lock which otherwise is gone once the fighter aircraft goes off 90 degree of your fov. Thanks for mentioning the missiles,you just proved my point,the missile are targeted by the main radar of the aircraft till they get autonomous,their fov is in the frame of expected target so they get a lock with that small antenna but that is again limited to rcs and range,for ex russian agat on r77 locks on a target of 5m2 at 15km or range...
Then do a research on French TRM(they are rated at 12W or 15W)I just dont remember at current while most of the experts do have a fighure of 859trms by old pic of rafale with aesa without the nosecone.
Those systems were not pursued by India even when india was a so called partner in the project.
Yeah as far as range,altitude and kinematics arw concern,it is superior to rafale but with item 30 and not with al41F,AL41 Falls 30kN short .
Did i compared french rafale and Su57 on the basis of stealth....
Rafale has serious advantage in A2a weaponry,A2g,more aviability,low maintenance,smaller cost and ability to launch nuclear missile.
Exxctly russians have been tight lipped despite the fact that they once ran the biggest propaganda stream around the world and tried to show their superiority over west,India knows very well the current state of su57 which desperately need funds. Su30mkis current OLS 30 can tack an IR target like that of F22 or f35 ,but the factor depends are range,altitude,speed and the lunsberg lens...Hilarious when you mentioned A noise jamming with the one(deception jamming)avialble on a fighter aircraft for its defence.

 

[Bleh]

The SU-57 has far greater stand-off, weapons both air-to-Air and air to ground...

Are they though?..
How so? Not only are most of it under development & untested, exactly which ones are superior to Rafales?

...and a much smaller RCS.

Is it though?..

It beats the snot out of the Rafale in kinetic performance.

Does it though?..
Yes, it has TVC & can do post-stall nosepointing manoeuvres was at very very very low speeds, that will probably allow it to win in a 1vs1, but bleeding velocity will be a significant disadvantage in a free-for-all with multiple combatants... Also i've never seen it (or any flanker) do anything at higher speed sustained turns, even remotely close to something like this:

 

[vishnugupt]

Why we Indians behave like typical Pakistani when it comes to advance technology of China and Russia. We should admit their advancement because it works well for them. neither their equipments are dummies nor people behind it are dumb. Every weapon has its own philosophy.
1) Russia believes there will an inevitable dog fight once you enter the war zone that is why they prefer manoeuvrability over stealth.
2) Russia believe they have to fight around their border ( defend large borders ) so they rely on ground radars to detect stealth and the first defence will be S-400 rather then SU-57 so it doesn't matter if their aircraft is stealth or not ( Selling Su-57 to the countries which are defensive in nature )
3) America prefers stealth because most of the time they are aggressor so they need to sneek in without being detected
4) If you look closely Russia put more focus on Radar and SAM because they have defensive posture while the USA is an aggressor and believe in the punishment of enemy and given a large defence budget they focus on precision
5 ) China is focusing on numbers and wants to develop weapons with little time so they outright copy others designs to minimise development time
5) IAF wants to defeat the enemy on paper only and don't believe in credibility so they always cry for the best

 

[Neptune]

You jumped up again without even realising what is stated....Anyways kindly explain us who waa flying Su57 in Syria(test pilots or Air force squadron level pilots),that will give enough detail if it was in a controlled or hostile environment....

I don’t knew who was flying the missions over Syria. Only that SU-57s were given to the Air Force for testing at some point and that the did conduct real missions over Syria which they recently again did.




They

Like i said you jumped up so early,Item-30 is a years away from getting operational,and the best alternative it is flying is Al41 which is not considered a fit for fifth gen aircraft as i have stated above...3re decades newer???No comments but laugh....

I would laugh too if i found myself in a predicament where I was arguing with someone about an engine not being 3 decades old despite that engine in question originated in 1986 while the izdeliye 30 originated around 2011 and won’t be ready until around 2025.





They

You should ask the french guy for the m88 cooling,as far as i know m88 has better cooling than anyother old gen engines.

Why would I ask someone something that knows nothing and has a history of making troll comment?




They

Th Su57 can not "sustain" a super cruise with current engine.....

I believe the test pilot, Bogdan, mentioned it in some old interview.




They

Su57 didnt had aesa even in 2011,neither did any russian fighter platform.

Wrong. At this post you clean know nothing and just want to win the argument at any cost possible even making false blanket statements.





Officially from United Aircraft Corporation:


https://www.uacrussia.ru/en/corporation/


Третий лётный образец выполнил первый полёт 22 ноября 2011 г. После проведения комплекса наземных подготовительных работ и дооснащения наращенным составом бортового оборудования он также подключается к выполнению программы предварительных испытаний.


Even a simple weki search would have spared you the.....


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57


On 22 November 2011, the third prototype, T-50-3, took its first flight from KnAAPO's airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, piloted by Sergey Bogdan. The aircraft spent over an hour in the air, and was subjected to basic stability and power-plant checks.[78]It differs from the other prototypes in the way it lacks a pitot tube. At this time all 14 test aircraft were expected to fly by 2015.[79]T-50-3 was the first prototype to fly with an AESAradar. Originally scheduled for the end of 2011,these flights occurred in August 2012, and showed performance comparable to existing radars.[80][81]






They

The best it had was a suffering aesa on a mig29 airframe with abysmal performance and usage of older gen Trm(despite larger antenna)back then....Their aesa is still questionable in performance because they have not operationalised it on any platform while comparing it with west is even more tragic,

The AESA on the Mig-29, the Zhuk is totally unrelated to the NIIP offered for the SU-57. The Zhuk was also in its infancy, it originally only had 680 TR modules but the improved version has 1000+. The Rafale was a train wreck when it first became operational, it had dozens of problems, but you are comparing a prototype product with finished product. You’re bias is unbelievable.

French AESA is operational from more than 8 years now and americans now use aesa for over 2 decades so it is hilarious to compare that a country which still manufactures pesa radar on its modern fighter,not willing to make aesa radar,has immature trm technology(due to miniscule investment in it) will make equal efficient aesa as that of west.

Technically the first Rafale used AESA 7 years ago and it used US transmitter receivers. Your argument is bias, the French piggy backed off US technology. Russia mostly had to do everything on its own minus using some foreign processors. Certainly no one was giving Russia their TR modules.
As for Russian AESA, until very recently they didn’t have any fighters with AESA, they did however, have operational ground based AESA for some time and now even their missiles use AESA. Russia already has many operational AESA radars any many more will be introduced next year.


Just a few examples:

Ground based AESA radars (operational for years)

(Supposedly ready)

AESA Radar seekers for missiles:

A-100 AWACS Operational in 2020:

They

Rafale still betters in terms of sensors compared to todays Su57 and that is a plain fact.

No it’s not a “fact” because Sukhoi has been very vague or simply secretive about the specific functions of some of its avionics. The only fact, we know is that the SU-57 radars have greater range, far superior situational awareness in terms of scanning area, far greater off bore engagement capabilities due to side lobe radars, 360 degrees MAWS and IR sensors. It’s missile also have a range of 192km and use AESA.

I don’t see a single thing “better” here for the Rafale. The Rafale is a fantastic aircraft but very much conventional in every sense. There is nothing ground breaking or innovative unlike the SU-57 or F-35.

The radar's range depends upon inverse square law with the range,the density and size of emmitters do matter for a good gain and it decreases with the same,

a smaller antenna has smaller gain due to low output and smaller antenna. The side lobe antenna which you said is 1/6 of the main antenna and range is actually 1/36 in that regard if it operates independently(plain maths)the best usage is to operate along with the main radar and give it the flexibility of 180 degrees for maintaining the lock which otherwise is gone once the fighter aircraft goes off 90 degree of your fov.

The side lobe radars are 1/4 the size of the main radar. The rest of your sentence is nonsense. Again the SU-57 side lobe radar is more then adequate for range and does give the aircraft far greater situational awareness and enhances the missiles ‘kill’ envelop without the fighter needing to turn into the enemy.

Thanks for mentioning the missiles,you just proved my point,the missile are targeted by the main radar of the aircraft till they get autonomous,their fov is in the frame of expected target so they get a lock with that small antenna but that is again limited to rcs and range,for ex russian agat on r77 locks on a target of 5m2 at 15km or range...

What was the point you “proved”? You just mentioned something plainly obvious, and something that has little to do with the topic.

Rafale has serious advantage in A2a weaponry,A2g,more aviability,low maintenance,smaller cost and ability to launch nuclear missile.

What seriously advantages does the Rafale have in A2A or A2G? Let’s go through this one last time.


SU-57 has a far smaller RCS (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has longer range radar (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 radar has greater FOV and situational awareness (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has longer range A2A missiles, 192km K-77M vs Meteor’s 150km (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has supercruise, much greater service ceiling and far greater acceleration again all advantages for the SU-57 in A2A.

Exxctly russians have been tight lipped despite the fact that they once ran the biggest propaganda stream around the world and tried to show their superiority over west,

What propaganda stream did they run? They don’t even have promotional videos for the SU-57 unlike the F-35 or many other platforms. In fact the SU-57 has probably been advertised far less then the Rafale and the amount of advising Sukhoi did compared with Lockheed is probably 1%. Besides a few airshow appearances which is common for all aircraft they did no advertising at all. You are again getting desperate to just sling mud. Remind everyone what France did in Afghanistan or the fiasco in which they released mock HUD footage with F-22s in which the US was unhappy about.

India knows very well the current state of su57 which desperately need funds.

The SU-57 desperately needs funds? russia put away 650 billion in new weapons purchases. The SU-57 program cost is a drop in the bucket compared to total cost they invest in the military. Once again you are just getting petty.

Su30mkis current OLS 30 can tack an IR target like that of F22 or f35 ,but the factor depends are range,altitude,speed and the lunsberg lens...

The lunsberg lens does not enhance the IR signature of the F-22. Russian avionics from SU-35 tracking IR signature of F-22 but SU-57 has poor avionics according to you.

Hilarious when you mentioned A noise jamming with the one(deception jamming)avialble on a fighter aircraft for its defence.

The only thing I mention was that Russia disabled US electronics warfare aircraft and drones over Syria. They also jammed GPS signals. No information is available in regards to what caused the jamming but it proves Russia has a very serious electrics warfare/jamming capabilities. This is not the same Russia of the 1990s and you clearly are underestimating their capabilities. You are arguing well established facts, which proves you are either ignorant or don’t care and just want argue with me. You claimed Russia never had AESA in 2011. Even Sukhoi confirmed that fact so basically your arguments consist of calling everyone (Sukhoi) liars while you can’t disprove anything they presented.

 

[Neptune]

Are they though?..
How so? Not only are most of it under development & untested, exactly which ones are superior to Rafales?

Is it though?..
Does it though?..
Yes, it has TVC & can do post-stall nosepointing manoeuvres was at very very very low speeds, that will probably allow it to win in a 1vs1, but bleeding velocity will be a significant disadvantage in a free-for-all with multiple combatants... Also i've never seen it (or any flanker) do anything at higher speed sustained turns, even remotely close to something like this:

Your first point. The SU-57 uses the K-77M, it is an A2A missile with a range of 192km, equipped with AESA and the ability achieve greater maneuverability at slower speeds then the AMRAAMS. It also identical to the meteor in dementions but has far greater range which should tell you the Russians built a more advanced missile.


Your second point about RCS. Yes the SU-57 has far less RCS then a Rafale period. Rafale has 90 degree corners and external weapons two of the biggest no no’s in so called “stealth”. It’s RCS is at least several dozen times larger.


Your last point about maneuverability and that video. There is nothing special in that video compared to what SU-35s or SU-57s have done. Both aircraft also can turn off TVC whenever they choose. Sukhois simply outperform the Rafale in slower speed, similar or better at higher speeds and demolish the Rafale in climb and acceleration.


Rafale is a great aircraft, it’s just nowhere in the same league as the SU-57. If Rafale enthusiasts want to talk about it, they should go to the correct thread and stop polluting this one.

 

[Bleh]

Your first point. The SU-57 uses the K-77M, it is an A2A missile with a range of 192km, equipped with AESA and the ability achieve greater maneuverability at slower speeds then the AMRAAMS. It also identical to the meteor in dementions but has far greater range which should tell you the Russians built a more advanced missile.

Russians are not known for superior missiles & electronics. It'll be hard to determine if it can actually live up to the advertised numbers.

Your last point about maneuverability and that video. There is nothing special in that video compared to what SU-35s or SU-57s have done. Both aircraft also can turn off TVC whenever they choose.

Well then why isn't one ever seen doing that? Only very very slow speed turns... Also they are draggy platforms & acceleration don't seem very high.

Also this point still stands, the other explanations are good.

Yes, it has TVC & can do post-stall nosepointing manoeuvres was at very very very low speeds, that will probably allow it to win in a 1vs1, but bleeding velocity will be a significant disadvantage in a free-for-all with multiple combatants...

 

[Neptune]

Russians are not known for superior missiles & electronics. It'll be hard to determine if it can actually live up to the advertised numbers.

Russia has gone a long way, similar to China, as both countries in the past 10-15 years have made impressive advances in the field of electronics. As for Russian missiles, India is buying Russian missiles while the US threatens India not to. In fact the US is threatening many countries that want to buy Russian missiles. Even NATO Turkey is buying Russian systems while being threatened.

Well then why isn't one ever seen doing that? Only very very slow speed turns... Also they are draggy platforms & acceleration don't seem very high.

Also this point still stands, the other explanations are good.

Doing what? I really don’t see anything impressive or unique in that video.

 

[Bleh]

Doing what? I really don’t see anything impressive or unique in that video.

Hard turns & high speed manoeuvres without losing all its velocity & coming to a stalling standstill.

 

[Neptune]

Hard turns at high speed... manoeuvres without losing velocity & coming to a stalling standstill.

You just contradicted yourself, firstly you can’t not lose-velocity while turning, secondly how do you not lose velocity then do a post stall maneuver, that defies physics.

Last thing I will add. An SU-35 from Paris made that Rafale performance look weak. There is a reason this video has 8 million views:






Again this is not a Rafale thread.

 

[Bleh]

Last thing I will add. An SU-35 from Paris made that Rafale performance look weak. There is a reason this video has 8 million views:

Again this is not a Rafale thread.

I don't care about views, but neither in that, nor in PAKFA's videos are the high energy performance very impressive... definitely not comparable to that Rafale's.

The whole display is dominated by very slow speed post-stall nosepointing manoeuvres.
If they try to do that in a free-for-all dogfight they may score 1 kill but in the process become sitting ducks for other enemy aircrafts for a good few seconds.

 

[Steven Rogers]

I don’t knew who was flying the missions over Syria. Only that SU-57s were given to the Air Force for testing at some point and that the did conduct real missions over Syria which they recently again did.




They




I would laugh too if i found myself in a predicament where I was arguing with someone about an engine not being 3 decades old despite that engine in question originated in 1986 while the izdeliye 30 originated around 2011 and won’t be ready until around 2025.





They





Why would I ask someone something that knows nothing and has a history of making troll comment?




They




I believe the test pilot, Bogdan, mentioned it in some old interview.




They



Wrong. At this post you clean know nothing and just want to win the argument at any cost possible even making false blanket statements.





Officially from United Aircraft Corporation:


https://www.uacrussia.ru/en/corporation/


Третий лётный образец выполнил первый полёт 22 ноября 2011 г. После проведения комплекса наземных подготовительных работ и дооснащения наращенным составом бортового оборудования он также подключается к выполнению программы предварительных испытаний.


Even a simple weki search would have spared you the.....


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57


On 22 November 2011, the third prototype, T-50-3, took its first flight from KnAAPO's airfield in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, piloted by Sergey Bogdan. The aircraft spent over an hour in the air, and was subjected to basic stability and power-plant checks.[78]It differs from the other prototypes in the way it lacks a pitot tube. At this time all 14 test aircraft were expected to fly by 2015.[79]T-50-3 was the first prototype to fly with an AESAradar. Originally scheduled for the end of 2011,these flights occurred in August 2012, and showed performance comparable to existing radars.[80][81]






They




The AESA on the Mig-29, the Zhuk is totally unrelated to the NIIP offered for the SU-57. The Zhuk was also in its infancy, it originally only had 680 TR modules but the improved version has 1000+. The Rafale was a train wreck when it first became operational, it had dozens of problems, but you are comparing a prototype product with finished product. You’re bias is unbelievable.









Technically the first Rafale used AESA 7 years ago and it used US transmitter receivers. Your argument is bias, the French piggy backed off US technology. Russia mostly had to do everything on its own minus using some foreign processors. Certainly no one was giving Russia their TR modules.
As for Russian AESA, until very recently they didn’t have any fighters with AESA, they did however, have operational ground based AESA for some time and now even their missiles use AESA. Russia already has many operational AESA radars any many more will be introduced next year.


Just a few examples:

Ground based AESA radars (operational for years)


View attachment 39067




(Supposedly ready)

AESA Radar seekers for missiles:

View attachment 39068


A-100 AWACS Operational in 2020:

View attachment 39069



They




No it’s not a “fact” because Sukhoi has been very vague or simply secretive about the specific functions of some of its avionics. The only fact, we know is that the SU-57 radars have greater range, far superior situational awareness in terms of scanning area, far greater off bore engagement capabilities due to side lobe radars, 360 degrees MAWS and IR sensors. It’s missile also have a range of 192km and use AESA.

I don’t see a single thing “better” here for the Rafale. The Rafale is a fantastic aircraft but very much conventional in every sense. There is nothing ground breaking or innovative unlike the SU-57 or F-35.










The side lobe radars are 1/4 the size of the main radar. The rest of your sentence is nonsense. Again the SU-57 side lobe radar is more then adequate for range and does give the aircraft far greater situational awareness and enhances the missiles ‘kill’ envelop without the fighter needing to turn into the enemy.









What was the point you “proved”? You just mentioned something plainly obvious, and something that has little to do with the topic.















What seriously advantages does the Rafale have in A2A or A2G? Let’s go through this one last time.


SU-57 has a far smaller RCS (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has longer range radar (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 radar has greater FOV and situational awareness (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has longer range A2A missiles, 192km K-77M vs Meteor’s 150km (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has supercruise, much greater service ceiling and far greater acceleration again all advantages for the SU-57 in A2A.










What propaganda stream did they run? They don’t even have promotional videos for the SU-57 unlike the F-35 or many other platforms. In fact the SU-57 has probably been advertised far less then the Rafale and the amount of advising Sukhoi did compared with Lockheed is probably 1%. Besides a few airshow appearances which is common for all aircraft they did no advertising at all. You are again getting desperate to just sling mud. Remind everyone what France did in Afghanistan or the fiasco in which they released mock HUD footage with F-22s in which the US was unhappy about.










The SU-57 desperately needs funds? russia put away 650 billion in new weapons purchases. The SU-57 program cost is a drop in the bucket compared to total cost they invest in the military. Once again you are just getting petty.









The lunsberg lens does not enhance the IR signature of the F-22. Russian avionics from SU-35 tracking IR signature of F-22 but SU-57 has poor avionics according to you.











The only thing I mention was that Russia disabled US electronics warfare aircraft and drones over Syria. They also jammed GPS signals. No information is available in regards to what caused the jamming but it proves Russia has a very serious electrics warfare/jamming capabilities. This is not the same Russia of the 1990s and you clearly are underestimating their capabilities. You are arguing well established facts, which proves you are either ignorant or don’t care and just want argue with me. You claimed Russia never had AESA in 2011. Even Sukhoi confirmed that fact so basically your arguments consist of calling everyone (Sukhoi) liars while you can’t disprove anything they presented.

Let me ease you a bit,whoever was flying in syria,must been a test pilot and the cant not be the regular squadron pilot.
It doesnt matter when it originated if it offers better technology and metallurgy compared to what russians can offer which at current the best they can give is AL41 while the Item 30 is a decade,M88 has modular design which makes engine operational easier,m88 latest varaint is m884es while new variant of the m88 will come in 2023,Al41F doesnt match M88 relatively and thats plain fact....Though by the dates you mentioned means Russians are 3re decade behind in the production of engines which could 5th gen platforms...
Then do read some pdf on m88,easily avialable on google,Type:- Safran m88 engine pdf....
Bogdon is a fabulous pilot and is very experienced,but what IAF officers stressed specifically on engine for not stealthy enough and for not achieving super cruise.
No one believes in what they publish regarding that field unless they have operationalised one and fielded one. The trm modules in xband are used by air borne aesa so it doesnt matter who made which radar in russia,they will use the same trm,and the trouble some state of their aesa is evident ..
Now dont make us laugh,Ground based aesa have longer wavelength than air borne aesa,each transciever is much bigger and operates at higher potential than air borne x band aesa,it has much flexible cooling and much little modes to work on,airborne aesa performance is majorly limited by the cooling,they have many modes of operation and require sophisticated cooling in a small space...It is hilarious to even compare but then if you think than the same tr modules are used everywhere...
Yes sukhoi has all that,but on paper,like we have amca flying on paper,their performance will be only emerge once either RuAF or anyother airforce starts its operation....
Su57 has a much bigger antenna and if what they publish are said to be correct,it can easily host a radar with 2000-2200 trm like the f22 so it is actually 1/6.5 and not 1/4 in terms of array size,its plain physics not too difficult. And you again proved me correct..."Again the SU-57 side lobe radar is more then adequate for range and does give the aircraft far greater situational awareness and enhances the missiles ‘kill’ envelop without the fighter needing to turn into the enemy." Exactly it is been their to enhance missile kill envelope,the aircraft doesnt have to turn its nose even though the enemy is off its los. Not obvious what i mentioned how different array work,ever heard about the fov.
"What seriously advantages does the Rafale have in A2A or A2G? Let’s go through this one last time.


SU-57 has a far smaller RCS (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has longer range radar (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 radar has greater FOV and situational awareness (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has longer range A2A missiles, 192km K-77M vs Meteor’s 150km (advantage SU-57)

SU-57 has supercruise, much greater service ceiling and far greater acceleration again all advantages for the SU-57 in A2A."
Definitely but only if they do perform the same than they are trying to...At current IAF is looking its future through Rafale.
Let me tell you a fact,in 80s Indian gov had many russian stooges or one can say,the gov was on russian payroll.
The absence of any promo is itself shoot into the foot,no one knows what they are trying to achieve ,what are their obvious benchmark and all we know is indians have backed off from the project.
Their annual budget is now smaller than India,sorry did i read 650 billion dollars for purchase by russis.
The lunsberg lense increase the rcs of an aircraft,any aircraft can take the advantge then,and a su30 with ols30 which is tracking f22 with the bars radar can also use ita ols30 for further strong track,its no big thing and you can use that footage for your propaganda but the truth is,you will not be able to repeat the same so easily against the same in a battlefield.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Russia has gone a long way, similar to China, as both countries in the past 10-15 years have made impressive advances in the field of electronics. As for Russian missiles, India is buying Russian missiles while the US threatens India not to. In fact the US is threatening many countries that want to buy Russian missiles. Even NATO Turkey is buying Russian systems while being threatened.








Doing what? I really don’t see anything impressive or unique in that video.

India is buying missiles mainly to replace the older russian missiles on russian platform,the expansion of the arnmaments will be with ASTRA and european ASRAAM.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Your first point. The SU-57 uses the K-77M, it is an A2A missile with a range of 192km, equipped with AESA and the ability achieve greater maneuverability at slower speeds then the AMRAAMS. It also identical to the meteor in dementions but has far greater range which should tell you the Russians built a more advanced missile.


Your second point about RCS. Yes the SU-57 has far less RCS then a Rafale period. Rafale has 90 degree corners and external weapons two of the biggest no no’s in so called “stealth”. It’s RCS is at least several dozen times larger.


Your last point about maneuverability and that video. There is nothing special in that video compared to what SU-35s or SU-57s have done. Both aircraft also can turn off TVC whenever they choose. Sukhois simply outperform the Rafale in slower speed, similar or better at higher speeds and demolish the Rafale in climb and acceleration.


Rafale is a great aircraft, it’s just nowhere in the same league as the SU-57. If Rafale enthusiasts want to talk about it, they should go to the correct thread and stop polluting this one.

Higher probabality in STR but not in ITR,canard delta excel in that flight regime,sukhois . Slow speed Sustain flight hardly happens in the age of missiles and HMDs. Rafale acceleration in transonic and supersonic speed should be greater due to more stability and less drag,it should also excel in climb in the A2A configuration.

 

[Neptune]

Higher probabality in STR but not in ITR,canard delta excel in that flight regime

I don’t know what those acronyms stand for but i’m sure there isn’t any flight regime that any delta wing platform can handily outperform a conventional platform such as SU-57 or F-22.

,sukhois . Slow speed Sustain flight hardly happens in the age of missiles and HMDs.

That is incorrect. Turkish and Greek aircraft aircraft get into dogfights often, most of the time everyone goes home but it has not always been the case. There is a great reason the Russians, American and Chinese now all have TVC, they would not spend the extra cost, weight and complexity on something that would not yield advantages.


This F-16 is only traveling 134 knots while it’s dogfighting a Mirage.

Rafale acceleration in transonic and supersonic speed should be greater due to more stability and less drag,it should also excel in climb in the A2A configuration.

That is highly....highly unlikely. For one the Chief SU-57 test pilot stated that the SU-57 dominates the SU-35 in the vertical flight regime and in acceleration which already exhibits excellent performance.

I just don’t see any way in hell an aircraft with a combined thrust of just 34,000lbs can out accelerate or out climb an aircraft with a combined thrust of 80,000lbs. That is just ridiculous, no matter how much less drag you may think the Rafale has.

 

[Steven Rogers]

I don’t know what those acronyms stand for but i’m sure there isn’t any flight regime that any delta wing platform can handily outperform a conventional platform such as SU-57 or F-22.








That is incorrect. Turkish and Greek aircraft aircraft get into dogfights often, most of the time everyone goes home but it has not always been the case. There is a great reason the Russians, American and Chinese now all have TVC, they would not spend the extra cost, weight and complexity on something that would not yield advantages.


This F-16 is only traveling 134 knots while it’s dogfighting a Mirage.

View attachment 39080









That is highly....highly unlikely. For one the Chief SU-57 test pilot stated that the SU-57 dominates the SU-35 in the vertical flight regime and in acceleration which already exhibits excellent performance.

I just don’t see any way in hell an aircraft with a combined thrust of just 34,000lbs can out accelerate or out climb an aircraft with a combined thrust of 80,000lbs. That is just ridiculous, no matter how much less drag you may think the Rafale has.

A conventional delta wing does have a higher probability in WVR fight unless the fight end up with guns only,a higher ITR in combat of that of Delta wings helps fighter to point its nose much quicker and knock off enemy much easier than a conventional wing,unless the fight turns up into the guns only,in that regime conventional deltas do generate a drag more but sustained turns are needed only when the enemy is on your 6 which is very rare in todays scenario. Todays aircraft come with 5th gen wvr which have over the shoulder firing capability...Su57,F22 have tvc not to perform on the airshows but to reduce deflection of the Flight controls such as tails in a combat scenario,movement of controls decreases stealth . All 5th gen aircraft which come with tvc have tvc as a flight surface slaved only to FBW and not by the pilot. Mirage is legendary in slow speed high alpha,one such senario couldnt change that fact that it can fly as low as 120knots and still produce a near stall maneuver.
T/W matters and deltas accelerate very fast from subsonic to transonic speed. Rafale with full fuel can still have t/w ratio over 1 ,however in loaded scenario its wing loading is gonna up and it will maneuver slower than the conventional aircrafts like su30.

 

[bhramos]

#Myanmar Could Be the First Export Client for #Russia's New SU-57 Fighters - Reports

 

[IndianHawk]

No it won’t. At best India would maybe make slight improvements to maybe the HUD or use its own navigation. That’s about it.

The integration of sensor fusion alone will make it extremely difficult to just replace a single system. It would be like thinking you can cut off an artery from a heart and replace it with some synthetic rubber without putting the body in danger.

Furthermore, it would mean India would not be able to operate the S-70, which is integrated with the SU-57. Not much is known but it’s obvious the S-70 has a much smaller RCS and is designed for deep strikes or deep penetration of airspace, something very handy considering how mischievous Pakistani is.

Su30mki has Indian mission computer. India won't rely on Russian mission computer no matter what it buys now. India also had own rwr in su30 with Israeli lightening pod you know why ? Because they were better than anything Russia could offer. What makes you think twenty years later india is behind when Indian economy has gone double the size of Russian??

Russia has been behind in Avionics and electronics and India is catching up to western tech. It might be a shock to you but not to anybody else who is watching the growth trajectory of India. Russian have been talking about aesa without a single operational aircraft with it for years in the meantime Indian have caught up to testing indegenios aesa on an lsp and a business jet simultaneously .

Why would India copy Russian sensor fusion when India has access to much more capable sensors ( aesa radar , irst , Maws from France , Israel and Indian products) and can develop superior sensor fusion based on superior more capable sensors.

You do realise India is far ahead in computing , algorithms and coding than Russia which are necessary for sensor fusion!!

This is what fanboyism does . Blinds one to development happening all around . Perhaps that is one reason why Russia is stagnant in economy.

Indian domestic r&d spending is probably already surpassing what Russia could spend on its research but India has advantages of open collaboration and competition from western system pushing it further ahead.

No wonder iaf didn't bite the su57 hype.