Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Engine

[power_monger]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

Kunal,

I think some of the points raised by sgarg are valid.

1) HAL has increased Su-30Mki availablity from 50 to 57% in last year. There has been a concerted effort to increase the availability rate only recently.Parrikar says they plan to reach availibility rate to 70% by end of the year.How come suddenly the availbility rate can be improved so much?This definatly looks like a systematic problem where there was lack of effort to increase su-30mki availbility which is now being looked upon as the chances of raffale deal has come down significantly.
2) Dharmendra pradan had mentioned that Refineries need 20k crore to put technology to improve the fuel in india.Quality of fuel has been a concern even for car manufacturers like honda and volkswagen.No doubt it is hurting avaiation sector also where there is high quality demands.

Comming to the engine problem,

Un-doubtedly the russian engines have always had lesser life span compared to engines of eastern counter parts. This problem existed before and will exist in future also. India has asked russia to look into the increase engine life which russia has agreed to.But sometimes we need to work around problems. We don't have a engine yet and america can always frighten us with sanctions. So India right now has to eat the bitter pill to avoid complete dependence on america.Imagine a scenario where America stops providing us engines during prolonged wars which might put our entire air force into jeapordy.Either we innovate bring our engines or learn to use work arounds.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

@power_monger, India has industrial facilities to build Russian origin engines only. The Russian technical infrastructure is similar to India in many respects. So even a stoppage of spares from Russia can be managed by domestic industry.

However India cannot build Western engines as tolerances of machined parts and quality of materials are superior in case of Western engines.

In short, India is wedded to Russia because India's technical and industrial infrastructure is far behind West and there is no hope of an early catch up.

Why would France give India its most coveted technology?? If India has $$, other buyers have $$ too. I doubt any country parts with high technology easily.

The best option for India is to develop local tech while adopting Russian tech in the present.

 

[roma]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

@power_monger, India has industrial facilities to build Russian origin engines only. The Russian technical infrastructure is similar to India in many respects. So even a stoppage of spares from Russia can be managed by domestic industry.
However India cannot build Western engines as tolerances of machined parts and quality of materials are superior in case of Western engines.
In short, India is wedded to Russia because India's technical and industrial infrastructure is far behind West and there is no hope of an early catch up.
Why would France give India its most coveted technology?? If India has $$, other buyers have $$ too. I doubt any country parts with high technology easily.
The best option for India is to develop local tech while adopting Russian tech in the present.

agree totally ....which is why i feel that the rafael deal goes
against the basic foundations and the grain of the Indian defence industry ....

alternatively we should treat the rafael as an opportunity to buy technology
albeit an expensive opportunity and ask ourselves if it is worth that cost ....
that is to say scale down the deal , instead of 120 or something number of planes,
make it 30 or 40 and concentrate more on the TOT aspects .....

sure the french an the rest of the knowledgeable world will know
what we are trying to do and they will of course try to stop it but money talks
and especially with the econ troubles in europe, Indian money can talk big , really big -
so the only question is how much we are willing to pay and do we see it as worth the money !

after getting the french tech and indeed apply this principle to other nations as well ,
then we can incorporate it into our own endogenous design and manufacture
albeit with the russian base which we have started and stayed with for decades

as you rightly pointed out we are married to russian tech ...
may i add that we were already married to soviet tech and now russian tech
and while it may imply one source we could still diversify in the manner i've pointed out just above

so although we are married yet there are windows for deviation and enrichment

and as the russian tech has kept us safe from and ahead of china all these decades,
it cant be so bad after all

chinese military aircraft is still way behind Russian
and they haven't produced a suitable engine for all their big talk !


some other issues ;-

Benjamin Netanyahu has visited India as PM of Israel, now its time for Indian Prime Minister to visit Israel...

modi was supposed to have visited around feb but those plans could have been before the Israeli election dates were announced .....perhaps he will visit later this year .

......the Likud party, led by current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has got 29 seats and is five seats ahead of main rival the Zionist Union, led by Issac Herzog, in the Knesset.

many thanks for your watchful eye ... perhaps you, SIr are dfi's Israel watch man !
great job for keeping alert ,
while i unknowingly let it slip past !

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

Few points in support of my view here >>

1. The major problem always have been engine flame-outs with Russian, This existed when India purchased its first SU-30 back in 1998 ..

2. Indian Air-force nor DRDO were ever interested into Russian tech for designing Indian Kaveri, Kaveri was based on Western designs ( Number of Compresses chambers, Dimension and weight class ) ..

3. Tejas in absence of Kaveri, Went for American engine despite availability of Russian RD-33 engines & RD-93 ..

4. French Mirages were old in India, Check the operation statues of both fighters with respect to sortie rates during peace and war time, Also note number of engine failures and engine related problems with Mig-29/21/23/27, Mirage safety records are best among all fighters in IAF despite its heavy usage..

===========

Western engines are reliable, Let it be French or American, We are indeed handicapped when sanction are applied but not in-case of MKI and tejas, MKI still has the Russian option and Tejas has Indian option in crises ..

SU-30MKI needs complete upgrades, Let it not be American then some one else, Unfortunately / fortunately F110-GE-132 fits the dimensions and thrust for powering MKI, If their are any-other please bring it to the table ..

Comming to the engine problem,

Un-doubtedly the russian engines have always had lesser life span compared to engines of eastern counter parts. This problem existed before and will exist in future also. India has asked russia to look into the increase engine life which russia has agreed to.But sometimes we need to work around problems. We don't have a engine yet and america can always frighten us with sanctions. So India right now has to eat the bitter pill to avoid complete dependence on america.Imagine a scenario where America stops providing us engines during prolonged wars which might put our entire air force into jeapordy.Either we innovate bring our engines or learn to use work arounds.

 

[akshay m]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

@Kunal Biswas @sgarg @roma @power_monger

a former USAF pilot (now works for a commercial airlines.) told me this in the sino def.forum

makes a lot of things clear doesn't he????????:thumb:

Nyet Komrade! nothing unusual about the low availability of Russian aircraft, and when your MOD is quoting those figures he IS disgusted that his equipment is unreliable, and his fuel supply just "Stinks"??

It won't matter if you are putting poor fuel in the MK1, Rafael, or PAK-FA, or your Momma's Red Ferrari??? you gonna causes detonation and ultimate failure!

Those Rafaels will do a lot better??? IF???? you put proper fuel in them, that contaminated krap will turn everything it touches into expensive junk---been there and done that!

 

[roma]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

Few points in support of my view here >>
1. The major problem always have been engine flame-outs with Russian, This existed when India purchased its first SU-30 back in 1998 ..

2. Indian Air-force nor DRDO were ever interested into Russian tech for designing Indian Kaveri, Kaveri was based on Western designs ( Number of Compresses chambers, Dimension and weight class ) ..

3. Tejas in absence of Kaveri, Went for American engine despite availability of Russian RD-33 engines & RD-93 ..

4. French Mirages were old in India, Check the operation statues of both fighters with respect to sortie rates during peace and war time, Also note number of engine failures and engine related problems with Mig-29/21/23/27, Mirage safety records are best among all fighters in IAF despite its heavy usage..

===========

Western engines are reliable, Let it be French or American, We are indeed handicapped when sanction are applied but not in-case of MKI and tejas, MKI still has the Russian option and Tejas has Indian option in crises ..

SU-30MKI needs complete upgrades, Let it not be American then some one else, Unfortunately / fortunately F110-GE-132 fits the dimensions and thrust for powering MKI, If their are any-other please bring it to the table ..

@Kunal,
i'm asking this question coming from a background of being a novice in these matters but
asking out of interest

what you are in effect saying ( besides other matters, of course ) is that in a sense
russian military aircraft jet engines are inferior compared to those of usa due to flame-outs
( and perhaps other weaknesses ? )

so thus those chnese military aircraft which use russian engines
will display that weakness ?

and hence if Indian aircraft go for western engines or Indian engines ( when successful some day )
based on western designs - ours should at least on that point be superior to the chinese ones !

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

Russian engines are more maintenance prone, complex design, Fuel guzzling and not at same level at materiel technology as Western, Which basically gives a working engine but not good as it should be for our needs ..

Afaik, Their are already some New generation PLAAF J10 and PAF J17 crashed due to malfunction of AL-31 and RD-93 engines respectively ..

=========

Indeed yes, Indian once when ready are design for our needs and western once were and are successful in our condition to greater extend than the Russian once ..

@Kunal, what you are in effect saying ( besides other matters, of course ) is that in a sense russian military aircraft jet engines are inferior compared to those of usa due to flame-outs ( and perhaps other weaknesses ? )

so thus those chnese military aircraft which use russian engines will display that weakness ?

and hence if Indian aircraft go for western engines or Indian engines ( when successful some day ) based on western designs - ours should at least on that point be superior to the chinese ones !

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

A jet turbine is a jet turbine. The basic principles are same. The difference is manufacturing technology used and the alloys used.

HAL can improve life of Russian engines BUT the problem is HAL hardly works on engine R&D.

How much money is spent in India on research in the field of aero-engines?? I think this is a bigger factor. The problem will be solved ONLY when domestic manufacturing improves, and I have NO faith in HAL in this regards. As long as aero-engines are entrusted to HAL, no improvement is expected.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

India needs massive focus on aero-engines. Dedicated R&D facilities are needed in this regards. A start can be made by adding a department in GTRE that builds expertise in Russian origin engines; which can be later branched off to a separate design house.

DRDO must associate itself with private manufacturing companies like Mahindra who have ventures in aviation. Engine is a cutting edge technology product which requires focus and resources.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

I asked a knowledgeable friend about the availability issue. The gist is that availability is also a factor of effort and money spent. Frontline units like Mig-29 units based in north Punjab and Gujarat; and Mirage-2000 units which are entrusted a special role; have traditionally got higher O&M allocations.

Mig-29 comes from the same tech base as Su-30. Su-30 availability can be at least equal to Mig-29 if not greater.

Su-30 availability will improve as spares are getting stocked. The inventory is being built up currently.

 

[smestarz]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

@power_monger, India has industrial facilities to build Russian origin engines only. The Russian technical infrastructure is similar to India in many respects. So even a stoppage of spares from Russia can be managed by domestic industry.

However India cannot build Western engines as tolerances of machined parts and quality of materials are superior in case of Western engines.

In short, India is wedded to Russia because India's technical and industrial infrastructure is far behind West and there is no hope of an early catch up.

Why would France give India its most coveted technology?? If India has $$, other buyers have $$ too. I doubt any country parts with high technology easily.

The best option for India is to develop local tech while adopting Russian tech in the present.

One of the reason that we are "wedded" to Russian way is that both India and Russia are big countries, and hence the requirement is usually quantitative. Russia was able to prevail over Germany during the second world war was not due to quality, but because of Numbers where the quality was overlooked. For example T-34 was not the best tank in all categories, but it was tank to have sloping armour, its gun was not the most powerful or the most accurate, but it was developed such that there are high levels of tolerances and could be built with unsophisticated processes. German tanks were built better, and more powerful than their Russian counterparts, but the time needed to produce German tanks was high and in the same time needed to build a say a company of tanks, the Russians would build a Regiment. Look at T-34, AK-47 etc these are not the weapons known for their accuracy, but they are known for their tolerance. the present aircraft technology does not really allow for Tolerances because building aircrafts of present age is top notch technology and having high tolerance means having lesser engine life and less accuracy.

The Soviet doctrne as developed on mass production and massng the forces and overwhelming the enemy defences, the West knew that it could not counter the russians with numbers, however they wanted to have better and poiwerful weapons that needed less manpower to use and maintain. Where as Russians were not short of man power. The Western doctrine is that of hitting critical points and disrupting the enemy, and forcing into choke points where the numbers become insignificant and hence the Russian advantage of numbers is nullified.

Thus for Aviation industry, Western engines are better as they have been made to be less tolerant but then they have a system that compliments the engine, India on other hand does not have a system that really compliments the use, maintenance and also systems that ensure that the engine works better (good quality fuel etc)

 

[sgarg]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

@smestarz, the point here is that the local industry (both public and private) cannot build parts for Western engines due to lack of machines that can provide tight tolerances.

So when you buy a Western plane, you become dependent on the OEM. The import substitution is very difficult.

If you want to build the machines to make the parts, you need basic research and development of a high order.

The TOT of design is not enough, as all machines will need to be imported as well. This can become a tedious and slow process.

The technology ecosystem is needed in the country, where designers, technologists, and industries with domain expertise exist side by side.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

@sgarg, It is wise not to spread disinformation to support your arguments ..

 

[smestarz]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

@smestarz, the point here is that the local industry (both public and private) cannot build parts for Western engines due to lack of machines that can provide tight tolerances.

So when you buy a Western plane, you become dependent on the OEM. The import substitution is very difficult.

If you want to build the machines to make the parts, you need basic research and development of a high order.

The TOT of design is not enough, as all machines will need to be imported as well. This can become a tedious and slow process.

The technology ecosystem is needed in the country, where designers, technologists, and industries with domain expertise exist side by side.

It is difficult yes, but it can be addressed in few ways

1. Continue the present way of R &D for Kaveri,
2. Get private companies to start a JV together to develop engine for 5th Gen planes. As you are aware that the 5th Gen plane is just a model, we can give the required specs to the industry and give them some funding to develop the right engine. The rule is simple that any engine hence forth should be built in India,

Maybe with this the foreign engine manufacturers will have a JV with some Indian consortium and offer them technology etc, if the engine requirement is huge (which for us is) it could be start of our domestic industry.

Since we need the engine in about 5-6 years at least, so that should give enough lead time to few consortiums (with funding) to come up with the candidates.

 

[akshay m]

Re: Sukhoi-30 MKI, Air Force's Most Modern Fighter Jet, Plagued by Eng

silent flanker??
image courtesy saurav chordia

 

[sorcerer]

HAL may put in Rs 2,000 crore for Sukhoi 30 spares hub

NEW DELHI: With defence minister Manohar Parrikar determined to increase the efficiency of the existing fighter fleet, state-owned PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is working on a pact with the air force and the Russian government to set up a spares hub for Sukhoi 30 fighters in India.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[Arjun25]

India & Russia Will Set Up $300 Million Logistics Hub For Su30MKI