Suitable Jaguar Replacement

[SajeevJino]

Tejas cannot be compared to Jaguar for the same reason as why a sedan cannot be compared to a pickup truck. Tejas is designed for an entirely different role that has nothing to do with Jaguar.

But No one Here will agree Like these Kind of Examples ..!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The very basics are flawed, To go on further into discussions ..

But No one Here will agree Like these Kind of Examples ..!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The idea of such integration on a Jaguar is only a idea made here on DFI, In real these aircraft are still have no radar nor they will have in near future, The only upgrade is the engines and that is it, It cannot carry BVR over wing pylons as these are design only to carry short range Missiles such as Magic and Aim-9, It was also mentioned before than concept of bomb-truck is obsolete, And Jagures bombing run with massive dumb bombs at low level are long gone, They are also economically expensive to maintain, Its status is IAF is more of an White Hati ..

On other hand, Tejas are getting Astra, They are getting multi rack capability so does other abilities, They are also coming in variants of MK2 and planned MK3, Even Government sanctioned 14 squadrons of Tejas to replace MIG-21/27, That is 300 fighters ..

Bottom line is Jaguar are in IAF for very short time, They will be replaced by MRCA ( Rafales ) in near future where as MIG-27 will be replaced by Tejas, Tejas and Jaguar cannot be compared, Tejas are way more advance and fall in different catagory ..

But if someone start comparing Jaguar with Tejas, Its amusing ..

Now we shall let him explain how some weapon integration makes Jaguar superior to Tejas where in he state some weapon integration on Jaguar make it superior to Tejas. If thats true why that weapon integration not possible on Tejas..

Would also request you to elaborate more on maintenance & cost to operate of Jaguar [twin engine] to Tejas.

 

[ersakthivel]

I'll agree on every single point you said.
But carraige trails are still important.. Had it been the way you said Su-30 would have never undergone carraige trails with Astra since its lighter than R-77

It is not Su-30 that is undergoing carriage trials for the fitment of Astra.

It is the other way around.

it is the Astra which is being qualified for fighter pylons of the IAF as part of it's research and development .

Su-30 MkI was never intended to carry Brahmos from design phase. But it is doing so now because it has the load bearing capacity. the same applies to tejas as well. As long as tejas pylons have the weight carrying capacity and a MMR that can guide th long range missile there are no problems.

 

[ersakthivel]

But No one Here will agree Like these Kind of Examples ..!!!

The rationale behind jag design is primarily for trainer needs with a secondary strike capability in the days were modern air defence and SAM network was at its infancy.

Right now jag is good to operate in near border areas supporting our ground forces with escort fighters and with quick return to home airspace when threatened , that too when no sophisticated air defence enemy SAM batteries nearby.

Even in their wildest dreams the 1970s era designers of jag would never have imagined that people will count on it in 2020-2030 time line .

And you are repeatedly saying that a tejas can't do what jag can do with God knows what purpose!!!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

Firstly, LCA Mk1 is nowhere close to being a 4.5th gen fighter. It is still an early-mid 4th gen fighter. Very few avionics aspects are close to 4.5th gen like the OBOGS and health monitoring systems. Radar, EW suite on Tejas, all of that is something you will find on Jaguar, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 too. What differentiates a 4th gen and 4.5th gen fighter is AESA technology, apart from some specific avionics and aerodynamics qualities inherent to these aircraft. Whether MK2 comes to that standard we will see.

So if we put ASEA on Jag and Mig-29 will they become 4.5th gen fighter? RSS fly by wire deltas with a high TWR ratios along with clean config RCS of less than 0.5 sq meters enabled by high composite usage ,

is what defines most of the 4.5th fighters of today, (I don't consider JF-17 as 4.5th gen , and neither do PAF which is importing second hand F-16 As in a hurried manner )

Even if tejas mk-1 does not have ASEA it can be upgraded with ASEA in MLU, So it won't be barred 4.5th gen fighter tag for lack of ASEA.

Still tejas mk-1 has all other qualities like low RCS with high composite usage, high TWR , RSS fly by wire compound delta airframe,

No single TYPHOON is equipped with ASEA. SO it is not 4.5 th gen as per the standards explained above? Queer thinking!!!!

Secondly, Tejas, Jaguar, and MKI are our own birds. We can integrate whatever we want on them, we can modify them however we like. The fact that we are changing the engines and adding radar on Jaguar is testament to that fact. We are also unilaterally modifying MKI to fire the Brahmos, we can't do these things on Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. Neither on Rafale.

What ever we do on jAG, WE CAN'T FIT IT WITH A RADAR BIGGER THAN IT'S NOSE CONE.

There are no plans to integrate American weapons on Tejas except for the Paveway that we get from the Israelis. Jaguar will receive American weapons because we signed an exclusive contract with Raytheon to add the Munitions Control Unit that allows a non-American aircraft to carry and use American weapons. So, as long as Tejas does not get this kit, it won't carry American weapons.


As of now, only Israeli weapons are our best bet on Tejas because the Israelis are happy to provide us with the relevant technology. Of course, we pay two or three times more than the Israeli military pays for the same stuff. But who's complaining.

As long as IAF finds those stuff good enough for the money , no one should complain. Any way Tejas has r-73 a russian WVR as well and fitment of Astra is only a few years away. SO there is no need for any other american weapon on tejas.

As of today Tejas is cleared for R-73, Paveway-II and Griffin. In the future it will carry Derby, Python-V, KH-35 and Sudarshan. In a bit far off future, it will carry Astra, Helina and other Indian weapons whenever ready. Crystal Maze is a possibility as well and so is the next gen Israeli LGB being made today. Overall, the weapons config of Jaguar and LCA will be very different. One will be American/Indian and the other Israeli/Russian/Indian.

Tejas cannot be compared to Jaguar for the same reason as why a sedan cannot be compared to a pickup truck. Tejas is designed for an entirely different role that has nothing to do with Jaguar.

Tejas is a true multi role fighter which can do any mission asked for within it's range. But Jag was bought for specific missions in the 80s when enemy air defence was also of the 80s tech.

now using the same airframe designed for 80s era agility specs against modern SAMs designed to tackle the latest highly agile 4.5th gen fighters is not fair.

 

[ersakthivel]

Once again bro,there is no comparison b/w Tejas and Jags,and therefore Tejas cannot be seen as an exact replacement for Jags.Tejas of course can perform the roles of a Jag,but not in the way Jag could do them,for Jags were tailor made for them. Had we been a cash strapped air force,we could've lived with it,fortunately we aren't.
IMO,its too early to talk about the replacement of Jags,as @Immanuel rightly pointed out,with the coming upgrades,Jags will see atleast 20 yrs more service. Its perhaps the best attack aircraft we ever had. It would be the A-10 of IAF,wereas Tejas would be our f-16.
Also,I don't see why we cannot integrate any weapon in Tejas,that we can on Jags (except the nuke bomb;Jags and Mirages are the only ones cleared to fly with nuke bombs in IAF).
About the engines,twin engines are an advantage for attack aircraft,and IAF is not that kinda an airforce to worry about maintaining a twin engined aircraft.

If tailor made roles for Jags exist today in indian subcontinent, had those missions vanished in Europea where Jag has already been retired?

Today's nukes are far lighter than the ones in the 1980s , with missile warheads weighing substantially les than the 1980s A bomb. SO qualifying tejas for that role won't be such big challenge.

A-10s were built to withstand damage and fly thats why they are retained in US forces,

Can jag take the same kind of damage and still fly?

Tejas is a way better replacement for jag, When challenged by enemy fighters during ground strikes,

tejas can swing to fighter mode and fight like a true air to air fighter with high agility , high TWR , very low clean config RCS ,and with low wing loading RSS compound delta air frame advantage like any other modern 4.5th gen fighter , can jag also do it?

Thats why I am repeating that the most precious asset on a jag is the trained pilot. If we give the pilot a tejas he can be many times effective in both fighter and strike roles, like any other modern 4.5th gen fighter pilot .

 

[ersakthivel]

No. The Jaguars have an entirely different design.

For one, Jaguars with drop tanks outrange any aircraft that we have, even MKI, when performing lo-lo-lo missions. Tejas cannot even compare. Beyond that Jaguar is armored and has much better avionics for strike missions. Aerodynamics also support Jaguar's lo-lo-lo missions with its high wing loading versus low wing loading on Tejas.

The new upgrade will give it a radar as well. The EL/M 2032. It will be at the same class as the one on Tejas. But it may be more optimized for ground strike missions. The Jaguar's Raytheon MCU upgrade will also enable it to carry many western weapons that Tejas won't be cleared for. Eg: CBU-105 sensor fused weapon which was ordered for Jaguars along with a whole host of other American and Israeli A2G weapons. The Israelis are releasing a new generation LGB and we are buying 500 of them.

Then Jaguars can also be equipped with Aim-120C-5 if required and there is a contract out for 384 ASRAAMs. Both missiles are better than Derby and Python-V that is going on Tejas.

The weapons options on Jaguar simply outclasses Tejas. Jaguar isn't designed for air to air missions though, but when it comes to strike mission we currently don't have a better aircraft.

Jag outranging SU-30 MKIs? With what load and what configuration?

What is the combat radius of tejas in lo lo fully loaded misisons?

What is the radome dia of jag? What is the radome dia of tejas?

Other than the PAF kamra facility no other major fighter maker makes that kind of high wing loading fighter like Jag and JF-17,

Why?

What ever upgrades we make the airframe and control surfaces of of jag are for 1970s era agility requirements. that can never change with any upgrade.

When challenged by enemy fighter like Jf-17 which has 100 plus Km range air to air missiles, Will Jag also be able to fire a 100 plus Km range missile like Tejas can do after Astra fitment?

Or can Jag drop it's external weapons and become invisible to enemy radars from any distance greater than 100 Km (like tejas can , courtesy it's low clean config RCS enabled by by 4.5 th gen fighter design and high composite usage)to facilitate a quick escape?

What is the ITR of Jag to get a quick lock on fire solution for it's aim-120 C?

A low wing loading fighter like Tejas can have a very high ITR which is crucial for the first lock on and fire solution for HMDS enabled close combat WVR missile like python or R-73 when challenged .

But Jag which was designed for the 1970s era agility requirement certainly can't. Then what is the point of those missiles , if it can not pull a sudden high ITR turn and obtain the firing solution ?

 

[Immanuel]

Jag is still very useful with DARIN-3 The upgrade incorporates new state-of-the-art avionics architecture including Mission Computer (MC), Engine and Flight Instrument System (EFIS), Solid State Digital Video Recording System (SSDVRS), Solid State Flight Data Recorder (SSFDR) and additional functions in inertial global positioning system (INGPS), autopilot, radar and RWR. The upgrade covers modern navigation, EW and weapon delivery system with INGPS using primary and reversionary modes, state-of-the–art, man-machine interface (near glass cockpit) with two smart multifunction display and head-up display.

It now most importantly needs F-125IN honeywell engine, it should be give a breath of new life with this engine. Honeywell claims the F125IN will allow for 23% shorter high-hot take-offs, provide 17-40% greater thrust and increase range by 36%. In addition, payload will increase by 2,000kg (4,410lb). The new engine should also make it a spritly beast which is far easier to maintain and has better reliability, this engine has better FOB resistance.

The Jag fleet of around 120 aircraft should be the IAF's go to force for CAS and opening shots into a war. With Paveways, Paveways 2 Bunker busters Griffins, CBU-105SFWs, Sudarshans in the near future, Harpoons, Crystal Maze, Asraam, now SPICE munition kits (most likely to be deployed on Mirages, LCA MK-1/2 and Jags).

With its ability take off and land from fields, strips of road etc. tis easy to deploy it and our Jag pilots are among the best pilots in the IAF.

SP’s Exculsive - SP's Aviation

 

[Immanuel]

Jag is still very useful with DARIN-3 The upgrade incorporates new state-of-the-art avionics architecture including Mission Computer (MC), Engine and Flight Instrument System (EFIS), Solid State Digital Video Recording System (SSDVRS), Solid State Flight Data Recorder (SSFDR) and additional functions in inertial global positioning system (INGPS), autopilot, radar and RWR. The upgrade covers modern navigation, EW and weapon delivery system with INGPS using primary and reversionary modes, state-of-the–art, man-machine interface (near glass cockpit) with two smart multifunction display and head-up display.

It now most importantly needs F-125IN honeywell engine, it should be give a breath of new life with this engine. Honeywell claims the F125IN will allow for 23% shorter high-hot take-offs, provide 17-40% greater thrust and increase range by 36%. In addition, payload will increase by 2,000kg (4,410lb). The new engine should also make it a spritly beast which is far easier to maintain and has better reliability, this engine has better FOB resistance.

The Jag fleet of around 120 aircraft should be the IAF's go to force for CAS and opening shots into a war. With Paveways, Paveways 2 Bunker busters Griffins, CBU-105SFWs, Sudarshans in the near future, Harpoons, Crystal Maze, Asraam, now SPICE munition kits (most likely to be deployed on Mirages, LCA MK-1/2 and Jags).

With its ability take off and land from fields, strips of road etc. tis easy to deploy it and our Jag pilots are among the best pilots in the IAF.

SP’s Exculsive - SP's Aviation

 

[ersakthivel]

Jag is still very useful with DARIN-3 The upgrade incorporates new state-of-the-art avionics architecture including Mission Computer (MC), Engine and Flight Instrument System (EFIS), Solid State Digital Video Recording System (SSDVRS), Solid State Flight Data Recorder (SSFDR) and additional functions in inertial global positioning system (INGPS), autopilot, radar and RWR. The upgrade covers modern navigation, EW and weapon delivery system with INGPS using primary and reversionary modes, state-of-the–art, man-machine interface (near glass cockpit) with two smart multifunction display and head-up display.

It now most importantly needs F-125IN honeywell engine, it should be give a breath of new life with this engine. Honeywell claims the F125IN will allow for 23% shorter high-hot take-offs, provide 17-40% greater thrust and increase range by 36%. In addition, payload will increase by 2,000kg (4,410lb). The new engine should also make it a spritly beast which is far easier to maintain and has better reliability, this engine has better FOB resistance.

The Jag fleet of around 120 aircraft should be the IAF's go to force for CAS and opening shots into a war. With Paveways, Paveways 2 Bunker busters Griffins, CBU-105SFWs, Sudarshans in the near future, Harpoons, Crystal Maze, Asraam, now SPICE munition kits (most likely to be deployed on Mirages, LCA MK-1/2 and Jags).

With its ability take off and land from fields, strips of road etc. tis easy to deploy it and our Jag pilots are among the best pilots in the IAF.

SP�s Exculsive - SP's Aviation

These are the details of the Jag upgrades,

But it's usefulness decreases with every passing year as it's airframe is old and it is no true multirole fighter with agility to defend itself when challenged.

It is being modernized as a stop gap measure, not because these upgrades will make it a 4.5th gen true multi role fighter.

It's aerodynamics can't be altered. So while this upgrade may rescue it from oblivion , it won't make it as any beast to frighten the enemy.

No one doubts the professionalism or talent of the jag pilots. thats why I say give they Tejas mk-2.

Somebody here says that jag can outrange Su-30 MKi in lo lo mission profile.

Do you believe it to be true?.

 

[Immanuel]

I don't think its usefulness decreases by the year, it is a reliable fighter and we have plenty of experience using it, with age comes refinement and honed tactics, eventually it will make way for the AMCA, PAKFA to be the tip of the spear however, once air superiority is attained, it becomes all the more useful in running wild over the enemy. Current and near term Pak air defences are still weak and they have some gaping holes and with plenty of mountains and valleys to provide cover, the Jag will run through them quite easily, AFAIK tis still the preferred platform for IAF air dropped nukes as well. With shaving the rocks being its trade mark, it can slip in and out of Pak without being noticed on radar. Furthermore with added features, it shouldn't have any problem defending itself either.

Age is certainly not a problem, it is but a tool and a fool with a tool is still a fool. Using it in the appropriate manner will make all the difference. I don't think IAF will any problems putting it good use for the next 20 years+

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Jaguar are not flying tanks like SU-25 or A-10, They are not design to take such punishment either ..

Its not economical viable to keep both Jaguar and MRCA when MRCA is way better doing the job ..

 

[Yusuf]

These aircrafts will be falling like leaves in an well networked Air Defense system.

They operate in areas where there is total air superiority.

 

[Immanuel]

Jaguar are not flying tanks like SU-25 or A-10, They are not design to take such punishment either ..

Its not economical viable to keep both Jaguar and MRCA when MRCA is way better doing the job ..

You're right, they are not flying tanks but they are far more rugged and in such a case far better, their simple ability to land on grass fields, short strips and now their ability to carry some of IAF's finest PGMs, they are deadly. MRCA as of now seems like a pipe dream with no fruition on near horizon, MRCA if its the rafale, the way it will burn holes in IAF's pocket, they will try not to use it when a much cheaper jag can do the same job. Moreover, IAF if goes on buys the Rafale won't have enough money to order more and as it is the MRCA will only plug gaping gaps in IAF's fleet strength. If IAF comes to its senses and drop the Rafale and goes for a cheaper option such as the Mig-35 with full-tot, they can order about 200+ fighters for about the same price they wanna pay for 125 Rafale and still have money left to order more MK-2.

MRCA is not a Jag replacement, rather a Mig-21/23/27 replacement and the current deal for 125 aircraft will only patch IAF's fleet strength. Moreover at this pace by the time 125th Rafale (hope not) is delivered it will be well over 2025 that is if HAL can manage to produce the first local fighter by 2018

 

[p2prada]

There is a lot of misconception of Jaguar.

Jaguar is a 7 tonne aircraft and carries 3.5 tonnes in fuel. It is powered by 38 KN engines and can stay in the air for far longer than even MKI can. The fuel tanks and cockpit is armored from small arms fire up to 12.5mm caliber. It's endurance is twice that of LCA. At low altitude the difference is up to three times.

It is meant for DPSA, basically, it is meant to attack targets deep within enemy territory irrespective of whether there is air superiority or not. When flying low, it outranges all enemy aircraft and that's its biggest weapon.

Jaguar has a very advanced and comprehensive avionics suite meant primarily for strike missions.

The new engine will give Jaguar more range and more performance at medium altitudes. The radar will give it the ability to fire missiles.

 

[Immanuel]

^^^^

True, with its fast and very low level nap of the earth flying, new upgraded avionics, state of the art new gen PGMs and hopefully upgraded engine in the near future, the Jag will continue to be IAF's preffered aircraft for very special deep penetration strikes while the others like MKI, Bisons, LCAs, MIg-29s and Mirages overwhelm the enenmy's radar picture. While upgraded Mig-29s and MKIs keep the F-16s, MKKs, J-10 and J-17s busy, the Jag will be used to strike hard, most of the time, the enemy won't know what hit em.

 

[halloweene]

That could be even more true for Rafale, no?

 

[Neil]

That could be even more true for Rafale, no?

but rafales are not capable of lo-lo-lo flying... !

 

[arnabmit]

The only suitable Jaguar replacement is AMCA. And that's the plan.

Not the status symbol Rafale?