Suitable Jaguar Replacement

[ersakthivel]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

@ersakthivel
jaguar t/w of 0.64 ? with honeywell F125IN with 6230 lbf dry thrust ???

3505 kg = 7727 lb

give me TWR figues in KN with weight and thrust of two engines.

http://defenceforumindia.com/thrust-to-weight-ratio-fighter-plane-460

It is given as 0.69 for jag.

It gives a TWR of 0.87 for tejas by taking 3.5 ton fuel as limit!!!!

the internal fuel of tejas is just 3 tons, So how can one measure it with 3.5 ton fuel is a mystery.

but if we take the half fuel weight along with empty weight the TWr of tejas comes to 1.07 .

What will it come to jag/

Empty weight - 7 tons,

half fuel -1.5 tons,

http://honeywell.com/News/Pages/02.10.09JaguarFighterAircraft.aspx

this source says it has a wet thrust of 44 Kn each in each engine meaning 88 Kn,

So with new honey well engine if the figures are correct it gets a TWR of around 1 close to tejas figure.

i took the figure mentioned in the old link above,

But how much of this thrust can be used by the very old airframe design to improve its performance in turns yet to be certified.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar

This link gives the total wet thrust of two engines as 65 Kn at present.

So at present it is supposed to have a TWR of 0.76.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

3505 kg = 7727 lb

give me TWR figues in KN with weight and thrust of two engines.

Indian Defence Analysis -

It is given as 0.69 for jag.

It gives a TWR of 0.87 for tejas by taking 3.5 ton fuel as limit!!!!

the internal fuel of tejas is just 3 tons, So how can one measure it with 3.5 ton fuel is a mystery.

but if we take the half fuel weight along with empty weight the TWr of tejas comes to 1.07 .

What will it come to jag/

Empty weight - 7 tons,

half fuel -1.5 tons,

Honeywell Announces High Performance F125IN Aircraft Engine to Give Jaguar Fighter Aircraft Superior Mission Capability, Improved Pilot Safety and Reliability

this source says it has a wet thrust of 44 Kn each in each engine meaning 88 Kn,

So with new honey well engine if the figures are correct it gets a TWR of around 1 close to tejas figure.

i took the figure mentioned in the old link above,

But how much of this thrust can be used by the very old airframe design to improve its performance in turns yet to be certified.

SEPECAT Jaguar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This link gives the total wet thrust of two engines as 65 Kn at present.

So at present it is supposed to have a TWR of 0.76.

yes! t/w with new engine will be close to 1, that's what i wanted to say.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

also ge f 404 dry thrust is only 54 kn compare that to 88 kn of jaguar.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Don`t make u turns from original topic, I have asked you why trolling here ..

And when ask you are telling about teaming up, that is indeed interesting ..

Logic counts based on simple facts, My & his views are not different from those in IAF let it be Ground staff or flying officers ..

Wiki links are unreliable, So does any other forum member personal opinions, I suggest you not to take some one opinion as fact and argue on it ..

Least said is better, Further such cases will be deleted ..

On my views about the Jags

 

[archie]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

Why was the Jaguar Developed ..ever Heard CAS missions and Strike Missions

If negative answer '

we can stop using air force and use the indigenous missiles for Strike and Satellites for Recon ..except naval aviation

One more thing the the Ballistic missiles have CEP valued ~5 ..striking Bunkers using BM is seems Joke That one fits on the Chinese and their blah blah DF 31 ASBM

Sir. CAS / strike i believe friendlies are nearby meaning its no longer 1000Km deep inside.. if the front line moves i believe its logical to cover rear and move assets near to the new frontline..

If we are talking only of deep strike as in >500Km inside enemy lines Fast Cruise missile/BM with 5M CEP makes perfect application rather than slow(compared to missiles) aircraft and pilot .. (I believe our current generation missiles have sharp accuracy)

 

[Twinblade]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

If we are take out a target 1000 Km away deep inside we can very well launch a Prithvi / Bahamos /nirubay/agni 1 and watch on screen then to risk a pilot .. Seems logical to me

A) it's expensive to use missiles for all strikes
B) without real time targeting data, missiles will fail to hit anything that moves.
C) air crafts can exploit targets of oppurtunity
D) one aircraft sortie can achieve several mission objectives at a lower cost.
E) a pilot is in a better position to differentiate between friendlies than a weapons operator 1000 km away, even with UAV imagery (which is subject to satcom bandwidth limitations)

One more thing the the Ballistic missiles have CEP valued ~5

You do realise that a CEP of 5 meters is considered top notch precision for something moving several times the speed of sound.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

A) it's expensive to use missiles for all strikes
B) without real time targeting data, missiles will fail to hit anything that moves.
C) air crafts can exploit targets of oppurtunity
D) one aircraft sortie can achieve several mission objectives at a lower cost.
E) a pilot is in a better position to differentiate between friendlies than a weapons operator 1000 km away, even with UAV imagery (which is subject to satcom bandwidth limitations)



You do realise that a CEP of 5 meters is considered top notch precision for something moving several times the speed of sound.

But it might cost the most valuable thing -> A Combat Pilot :fear:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

What said stand correct in absence of layered Air-defense ..

The said is true but impractical inside heavy air-defense zone, This is where deep penetration roles fails for today air-crafts ..

A) it's expensive to use missiles for all strikes
B) without real time targeting data, missiles will fail to hit anything that moves.
C) air crafts can exploit targets of oppurtunity
D) one aircraft sortie can achieve several mission objectives at a lower cost.
E) a pilot is in a better position to differentiate between friendlies than a weapons operator 1000 km away, even with UAV imagery (which is subject to satcom bandwidth limitations).

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

yes! t/w with new engine will be close to 1, that's what i wanted to say.

But it is still a jurasic era air frame compared to the relaxed static stability fly by wire air frame of tejas which places maximum importance on agility.

What ever engine you put on jag , you won't expect to ever match it , with the old wing design and control surface hydraulics which are very old,

Also with GE-414 In S6 tejas mk-2 TWR will go past 1.2 if you apply the same half fuel standard for TWR.So tejas will always retain the edge over jag and any comparison is unfair as tejas is modeled on the F-16 Xl airframe and jag was originally built for trainer needs with secondary strike capacity.

So any way jag is not a true multi role like tejas which has a 120 Km range tracking radar and will have close to 100 Km range BVR missiles while doing ground strike, which jag will never hope to match.

Also if challenged in strike mission tejas can drop all its external heavy ground strike weapons and will reduce its RCS to less than 0.3 sq meter , which can't be tracked by any radar from any distance less than say 60 km,

So it immediately goes off the radar screen of any ground based or air borne radar and has a higher chance of making it to home base undetected, which is not the case with jag or any other plane in IAf fleet including Su-30 MKi,

So never under estimate the small bird's utility.And most people who are spreading falsehoods about tejas on various forums across the net will never be able to counter these points.

Tejas adds immense flexibility as it will do air to air role or air to ground role as per the battle field requirements and can go for ground strikes with long range BVR missiles for self defence and fight any 4.5 the gen fighter when challenged with comparable STR and ITR, which is not the case with jag,

Jag had it's time and done it's duty,

So it is not fair to drag it into the 4.5th gen airframe like tejas which was built for true swing role capability like RAFALE with low RCS, RSS , composite fly by wire air frame, 120 Km tracking range MMR(ASEA in mk-2 ), OBORG for deep strike mission, and 100 plus KM range BVR missiles and a fully integrated EW suit,

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

also ge f 404 dry thrust is only 54 kn compare that to 88 kn of jaguar.

that is a factually wrong comparison,

84 Kn is the wet thrust for tejas and 88 Kn (2x44 kn , 44 Kn each for single engine)is the wet thrust for JAG with updated engines,

54 kn is the dry thrust of tejas and even though we don't know the dry thrust of Honey well engine i have no doubt that it too will be in the same range,

because if the makers give a single number for thrust figure it always refers to wet thrust , not dry thrust, Since honeywell has given 44 kn for a single engine it means it is the wet thrust only. you are taking it as dry thrust by mistake,

Also we don't know whether jag airframe can get all the wet thrust after installation of honey well engine as the air inlet of jags were not designed for it.this also needs clarification , i.e what is the installed thrust of these engines on jag in hot and humid whether conditions of india with the old air intakes of jaguar.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

But it is still a jurasic era air frame compared to the relaxed static stability fly by wire air frame of tejas which places maximum importance on agility.

What ever engine you put on jag , you won't expect to ever match it , with the old wing design and control surface hydraulics which are very old,

Also with GE-414 In S6 tejas mk-2 TWR will go past 1.2 if you apply the same half fuel standard for TWR.So tejas will always retain the edge over jag and any comparison is unfair as tejas is modeled on the F-16 Xl airframe and jag was originally built for trainer needs with secondary strike capacity.

So any way jag is not a true multi role like tejas which has a 120 Km range tracking radar and will have close to 100 Km range BVR missiles while doing ground strike, which jag will never hope to match.

Also if challenged in strike mission tejas can drop all its external heavy ground strike weapons and will reduce its RCS to less than 0.3 sq meter , which can't be tracked by any radar from any distance less than say 60 km,

So it immediately goes off the radar screen of any ground based or air borne radar and has a higher chance of making it to home base undetected, which is not the case with jag or any other plane in IAf fleet including Su-30 MKi,

So never under estimate the small bird's utility.And most people who are spreading falsehoods about tejas on various forums across the net will never be able to counter these points.

Tejas adds immense flexibility as it will do air to air role or air to ground role as per the battle field requirements and can go for ground strikes with long range BVR missiles for self defence and fight any 4.5 the gen fighter when challenged with comparable STR and ITR, which is not the case with jag,

Jag had it's time and done it's duty,

So it is not fair to drag it into the 4.5th gen airframe like tejas which was built for true swing role capability like RAFALE with low RCS, RSS , composite fly by wire air frame, 120 Km tracking range MMR(ASEA in mk-2 ), OBORG for deep strike mission, and 100 plus KM range BVR missiles and a fully integrated EW suit,

But do we have an aircraft to replace Jag -> No.
Do any fighter in IAFs inventory can perform SEAD and DEAD missions as effectively Jag-> No

Jags can come handy especially against Pakistan. Jaguars escorted by Mirage 2000 can still prove to be a nightmare for Pakis.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

But do we have an aircraft to replace Jag -> No.
Do any fighter in IAFs inventory can perform SEAD and DEAD missions as effectively Jag-> No

Jags can come handy especially against Pakistan. Jaguars escorted by Mirage 2000 can still prove to be a nightmare for Pakis.

There is no questions about that.
If jag had no role the IAF won't be spending billions on upgrading it.
Considering our depleting squadron numbers it is an urgent stop gap measure as well.
What i contested was the point that Tejas can not do what jag can do. Nothing more.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

There is no questions about that.
If jag had no role the IAF won't be spending billions on upgrading it.
Considering our depleting squadron numbers it is an urgent stop gap measure as well.
What i contested was the point that Tejas can not do what jag can do. Nothing more.

But then Tejas was never meant to be a fighter bomber.
Its was meant to be an point Air Defense and interceptor aircraft for the IAF which it fulfills perfectly

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

SU-30MKI yes .

SU-30MKI indeed ..

Why all these years IAF is using MKI with KH-31P and PGM in all exceries ..

But do we have an aircraft to replace Jag -> No.
Do any fighter in IAFs inventory can perform SEAD and DEAD missions as effectively Jag-> No

Jags can come handy especially against Pakistan. Jaguars escorted by Mirage 2000 can still prove to be a nightmare for Pakis.

================

Educate yourself and look at the Specs of Tejas, GSQR are made by IAF ..

But then Tejas was never meant to be a fighter bomber.
Its was meant to be an point Air Defense and interceptor aircraft for the IAF which it fulfills perfectly

 

[Kunal Biswas]

separate thread

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

They are simply replacing the MIG-27 in mid term, Till MRCA take place ..

If jag had no role the IAF won't be spending billions on upgrading it.Considering our depleting squadron numbers it is an urgent stop gap measure as well..

 

[ladder]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

They are simply replacing the MIG-27 in mid term, Till MRCA take place ..

The last MiG 27 sqdn. was replaced by Su-30 MKI.

Check IAF website Sir.

Added Later.

Sqdn

No.2 Tejpur is now operating Su-30 MKI, which previously operated MiG-27

No.20 Pune also as above.

18 kalaikunda and 222 Hashimara, both will/ are convert/ converting to Su-30 MKI

Then we will be left with

Sqdn.

10,29 Jodhpur , 22 Halwara and another one I am not sure, maybe TACDE Gwalior.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

MIG-27 are still active in IAF its the MIG-23 are not so ..

MKI were replacing MIG-23 back then ..

There may be some error in website ..

The last MiG 27 sqdn. was replaced by Su-30 MKI.

Check IAF website Sir.

Added Later.

Sqdn

No.2 Tejpur is now operating Su-30 MKI, which previously operated MiG-27

No.20 Pune also as above.

18 kalaikunda and 222 Hashimara, both will/ are convert/ converting to Su-30 MKI

Then we will be left with

Sqdn.

10,29 Jodhpur , 22 Halwara and another one I am not sure, maybe TACDE Gwalior.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

SU-30MKI yes .

SU-30MKI indeed ..

Why all these years IAF is using MKI with KH-31P and PGM in all exceries ..



================

But if we are facing chinese most of our flankers will be busy gaining air superiority.
So Jags have to be used either escorted by Tejas or Mirage..
And We cant even move our entire air fleet To face china..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: IAF to buy 14 Tejas squadrons

I am not into senerios, But Some Points >

You cannot move whole air-force to one front which is correct & Not necessarily MKI are only for that purpose, A fleet is consist of mixed air crafts, following roles based on the senerio you thinking >>

1. MKI > Multi-role fighter but mainly useful in long range CAP and can be used for CAS & SEAD if needed ..
2. Mirage 2005 > Multi-role fighter but mainly used for providing local CAS and can be used for offensive CAS if needed ..
3. MIG-29UPG > Multi-role fighter but mainly for Air - superiority ..
4. Tejas > Multi-role fighter but mainly CAP and local CAS and can be used for offensive CAS & SEAD if needed ..

==============

MKI, Tejas are equally needed on both fronts and prefer first as these multi-role, Moreover Tejas have more stealth features than any other fighter in IAF so does ability to carry different origin of weapons systems .

No modern country use Jaguar ( Has no radar nor efficient Air-combat capability ) any longer except India, Our MIG-27 are older and have spare issue which are replaced by Jag for now until MRCA comes into picture ..

But if we are facing chinese most of our flankers will be busy gaining air superiority.
So Jags have to be used either escorted by Tejas or Mirage..
And We cant even move our entire air fleet To face china..